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Conformity refers to the tendency to align one’s attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors with those of a group. While it can promote social harmony and help societies function smoothly—such as driving on the correct side of the road—it also carries significant risks when taken to extremes.
Why Conformity Can Be Bad
Loss of Individuality: Excessive conformity suppresses personal identity, creativity, and unique perspectives. When individuals constantly suppress their true thoughts to fit in, they may lose confidence and a sense of self.
Groupthink: This occurs when group members prioritize harmony and consensus over critical thinking. The result is poor decision-making, especially in high-stakes environments
Inhibition of Innovation and Progress: When people avoid challenging the status quo, new ideas and improvements are stifled. Societies that discourage dissent risk becoming stagnant and unable to adapt to change.I’m writing this cuz I notice an extreme level of ideological control around religious beliefs. Groupthink is not something to be praised. Shutting down dissent is not your responsibility. You cannot build muscle without adversity and you cannot find truth without some conflict on what truth might be. We are all responsible for our choices but if we don’t know what _is_ the right choice we cannot make proper decisions. Shutting down others to push our own narrative only creates an echo chamber of delusion
Jews are required by Hashem and His Torah to both conform and to censor.
The idea otherwise is 100% directly coming from modern Goyish values.
@rescue
lol, this is (supposed to be) a jewish forum. Judaism is (and I’m eyeballing the order of your post) pro- conformity
- alignment of attitudes, beliefs, behaviors with torah observant group
- loss of individuality
- suppressing personal identity, creativity, and perspectives (when not regulated by groupthink)
- fitting in
- loss of confidence (inwrong thought)
- groupthink
- poor decision-making, especially in high-stakes environments
- avoiding challenging the status quo
- avoiding new ideas
- stifling ‘improvements’
- inability to adapt to change
- ideological control around religious beliefs
- shutting down dissent
- echo chambers
that being said, let me emphasize that shutting down dissent is YES our responsibility when confronted with foolishness (like your post). While we don’t (and are not allowed to) choose adversity, don’t worry, we have bad people like you trying to tell us how to be Jewish. Are you going to burn us at the stake like your predecessors, or is this just a “friendly” attack?
Judaism is fully against “critical thinking”, and many seforim have been written explaining why.
We are indeed “responsible for our choices” but trust me that we know what the right thing is without your nonsense. We endorse and promote our Torah echo chamber and manage to do it without the delusions you are somehow so familiar with and wary of.
somejew represents only a fringe of judaism
and therefore misrepresentations of judaism could – and do – appear in somejews posts from time to time
—
will amend somejews post to reflect real judaism
here we go :
Judaism is neutral about
conformity
loss of individuality
suppressing personal identity, creativity, and perspectives
fitting in
avoiding challenging the status quo
avoiding new ideas
stifling ‘improvements’
inability to adapt to change
shutting down dissent
echo chambers
—
neutral —
meaning that those attitudes could be used for the good and for the bad , like most objects in this worldfire is an extreme example
it could be extremely dangerous and conversely extremely beneficial
it all depends on the circumstances and the result of its use
same here
it all depends on the circumstances , the results of , and the intention of those employing those attitudes
.
.I agree with you in principle, but this had nothing to do with the discussion we had about Shaitels. That was a Torah discussion.
If we are discussing 1776 USA revolution, and someone starts talking about China, it’s not relevant….
But, in general, you have a good point…
To rescue
This subject is near and dear to my heart. There are two types of Orthodox Jews: followers and non-followers. What’s a follower? Many years ago, an acquaintance told me, “I tell everyone I meet that I don’t need my brain because I just do everything that Rabbi Miller says.” What’s a non-follower? Some years back I was with a group, and I stated that I’m anti-Chabad. One fellow remarked, “Oh you must be a follower of Dr. Berger.” I responded, “No. I’m an “agreer” of Dr. Berger. We came to the same conclusion but we each got there in our own way.” What are the characteristics of a follower? He’s convinced that he’s right about every issue and will never engage in any real discussion. Most often he’s following some dogmatic Rabbi. Non-followers recognize that we don’t have all the answers and we’re willing to listen and consider other points of view. As my Rav, Rabbi Moshe Plutchok said, “I don’t know what’s right, but I know what’s wrong.”
@OP,
Instead of post trollish comments from your dorm room take some English language classes, as to “Censership” sic lol, the mods let you post 85 stupid comments of various form, don’t worry hashem has a zivik for you waiting and you will leave the dorm.To yankel berel
As much as I love and respect you, somejew doesn’t represent a fringe of Judaism. All, or at least most, of Chabad have surrendered their free will to accept their handlers’ lies. Then we have the Millerites who blindly accept everything Rabbi Miller said. In much of the Charedi world shutting off one’s mind is obligatory. There’s no question that this has contributed to the number of OTD’s. Rescue has opened a very important thread. Sadly, I don’t believe that there can ever be rapprochement between the two sides because the braindead are convinced that their approach is mandated by the Torah.
Dr. Qwerty said: “I responded, “No. I’m an “agreer” of Dr. Berger. We came to the same conclusion but we each got there in our own way.”
Are you a “follower” of תורת משה רבינו, or an “agreer” of תורת משה רבינו? [Don’t freak out, I think you are the former. Just think for a moment about the enormity of the difference between the two options. And why being an Orthodox Jew requires one to in fact be a “follower”. Early “Conservative Jews” were “agreers”, until they weren’t any more…]
Dr. Qwerty said:”As my Rav, Rabbi Moshe Plutchok said, “I don’t know what’s right, but I know what’s wrong.”
Presumably he knows that keeping Shabbos is right. Eating Kosher is right. Wearing Tefillin and Davening is right. At least 248 things are clearly “right”. And you inherently can’t define what is wrong if you can’t define what is right…
Yankel Berel – With all due disrespect for the inarticulate ‘in your face’ style of SomeJew’s post, the reality is that being loyal to Orthodox Judaism doesn’t go together with many things that Postmodern Western society holds dear. Including moral relativism and the attitude of ‘every man/woman/other for him/her/themself’.
The basic ABC of Judaism is accepting that God gave us a ‘narrative’ at Mount Sinai. [Which includes a message for all Mankind as well.] There is a LOT of room to learn, debate, and develop deeper understanding of our Judaism, but it all starts off with accepting that basic foundation as axiomatic.
To Yaakov Yosef A
I’m definitely a follower of Toras Moshe, but I am not a follower of any Rabbi. Let me explain what I mean with a story. In 2004, I attended a certain shul (YI) whose Rav was Chabad. It was Shabbos Parshas Bo, and I sponsored the Kiddush, in honor of my father’s Yahrtzeit. The custom of the shul was for the Baal Yahrtzeit to give a speech. I gave a Dvar Torah in which I quoted Rashi that most Jews died in the ninth plague because they didn’t want to be leave Egypt, and so we should never give up hope of being redeemed, if we want to be in that twenty percent who’ll be saved by Moshiach. I sat down and then the Rabbi commented, “I want to thank Dr. “Qwerty” for sponsoring this week’s Kiddush, but I want to add that his speech is totally wrong. The Rebbe said that the Final Redemption won’t be like Yetzias Mitzrayim, because every Jew will be saved.” That’s total Chutzpah. He had every right to say that the Rebbe disagreed with me, but he had no right to say I was wrong. No Rabbi Has the final word. Judaism embraces differences of opinion. As for Rabbi Plutchok, he’s an out of the box thinker and so when he says he doesn’t know what’s right he means that he won’t “Pasken” on such questions as the age of the universe, evolution and other controversial subjects. But obviously he doesn’t stray one iota from our Mesorah and neither do I.
To rescue
Would you elaborate on your last post? please cite example(s).
Dr. Qwerty
I understand what you are saying. That is sort of what I thought you meant. But simply by believing in Toras Moshe and the Mesorah of all the generations until now (Mishna, Gemara, Shulchan Aruch, etc.), you DO believe/follow many, many Rabbonim through the ages. You presumably also ‘follow’ someone today for Shailos in Halacha.
The Chabad Rabbi should have said that “The Rebbe held that Shittah to be wrong”, instead of categorically calling you out, because there are many who do hold like what you said. [There are also many, not just Chabad, who don’t, but both opinions have valid sources and backers.]
Did None2.0 come back under a new username?
To rescue
I’m a little confused. Are you criticizing the way I deal with Chabad? If that’s your opinion, then I’ll address it. I write in a rather folksy manner, while you tend towards the academic approach, so it’s a bit off-putting. Clarify and I’ll be glad to respond to your concerns.
To YYA
Obviously, had he put it as you did, there would be no problem, but as I’ve stated, Rabbi Plutchok told me that Millerites and Lubavichers are cult members and so they believe that their leaders are infallible. To be sure I know many Lubavichers who would agree with that Rabbi, but they would never publicly embarrass another Jew because they have good Middos. The same is true for Rabbi Miller’s followers. The problem is their inability to listen to any opposing viewpoint. To be fair, I had very few personal dealings with Rabbi Miller, but I spent thirty years with his Talmud Muvhak. He’s a wonderful person but any challenge to Rabbi Miller’s view gets you a one-way ticket you know where. Coming from the Feinsteins that didn’t sit well with me. You’ll probably ask why I went there. It was 1990 and I wanted to learn Gemara, I knew almost nothing at the time, and I read about the Yeshiva in the Jewish Press, so I signed up. I made a lot of friends and developed a taste for learning. As for Rabbi Miller’s shittahs, I basically ignored them.
Fakenews – I was thinking the same thing. Although there were probably more than one such participant here.
from your responses I realized that I did not explain properly
does judaism oppose ‘conformity’ in itself ? absolutely not
does judaism impose ‘conformity’ in of itself ? absolutely not
judaism demands nothing less nor more than … judaism
now … if judaism is enhanced by ‘conformity’ , than judaism would be advocating for it , in that particular circumstance
…. if judaism is hampered by ‘conformity’ , than judaism would be advocating against it , in that particular circumstance
imagine an orthodox jew in the late soviet union — judaism would stress he should not ‘conform’ …. by every fiber of his being !
if everyone in shul talks in the middle of hazarat hashatz — again… judaism would stress he should not ‘conform’ …. by every fiber of his being !
it is extremely simplistic to say that judaism demands conformity … and extremely wrong too …
I would venture to say that the entire essence of judaism is “non-conformity” , meaning … not conforming with the outside world …
it is correct to note that in many subgroups within judaism there is a high level of conformity …
but does judaism perse demand that ? … I have not found any source within judaism demanding this …
I would suggest the members of the conformist groups are conforming … as a way of coping with being “the non conformist” vis a vis the outside world
besides this …
there is tremendous creativity within judaism …
walk in to any serious, self respecting bet midrash … and only look at the walls … you are literally surrounded by untold levels of creativity ….
you call that ‘stifling’ ????
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Yankel Berel – 100% agree. My only caveat was that being “Orthodox” means just that: sticking to your guns religiously no matter what, and not everything is open for discussion or questioning. Doing that requires BOTH conformity and non-conformity depending on the circumstances.
interesting how members of the most ‘conforming’ sects run around in hospitals supporting the most ‘non conforming’ people imaginable ….
just one small example of the widespread other side of the coin you totally ignore ….
re your observation of the ‘rich’ wedding — it seems that you could do with some improvement of your ‘ayin tova’ ….
in yiddish its called farginnen …
in german … the original source of yiddish it does not exist , I am told ….
.
.rescue> Try walking into a store in one of our communities not dressed in the latest outfits. People won’t treat you like a human being.
I walked into the Bobove shul on shabbos some decades ago, dressed in a decidedly modern suit. When the Rebbe Z’L walked in briskly, he made a beeline from the row of shtreimels waiting to greet him to shake my hand.
To rescue
If you have such a negative opinion of Orthodox Jews, why don’t you join the irreligious? Many years ago, I spoke to the mother of a girl I was dating, (the mother wasn’t observant, but she was very nice). She told me about something that a frum Jew did that totally turned her off from the religion. I mentioned this to my Rosh Yeshiva and he told me, “You should have asked her if she knows any bad irreligious Jews and if she does why didn’t seeing them make her become frum?” Instead of casting aspersions on others learn to work on yourself. You’re clearly far from perfect.
To always
The Bobover Rebbe was in a class by himself. I heard this story, “One day some fellow walked into the Bobov Beis Hamedrash and he was garishly dressed. In addition, he was clean shaven. The Rebbe greeted him and after a short conversation he left. The Rebbe noticed the looks on the faces of his Chassidim and so he said, “Die trachts as ehr hut nisht kein bood(beard). Ehr hut a bood, uber ehr geit dis interveinig.” YYA can correct my Yiddish, I know it’s not good, but you should get the point. YWN is now infected by rescue who is a one trick pony, all he does is criticize. Clearly, that’s not the Torah way.
@qwerty613
I’m supprised your rosh yeshiva was prompting you to be over on chazal’s dictim that we are not allowed to answer to apikorasim like that mother (gemureh avoda zueh).heard that the famous kdushat levi once remarked … why did God create crooked logic ? What is the point ?
whereupon he answered that crooked logic was created to be used for melamed zhut on the yehudim
think of that famous quote from this famous melamed zhut , whenever I hear crooked logic being used to be melamed chov ….
.
.qwerty> something that a frum Jew did that totally turned her off from the religion.
There is a story about R Eliezer Silber visiting Yidden just freed from Nazi camps. One of them said that he lost his emunah after observing someone “frum” who smuggled a siddur in the camp – and then every day lent it to others and taking their meager food rations as payment. Rav challenged him – this is one person, but what about hundreds of people who borrowed his siddur in order to daven for a day who gave away their last food?
@yankel-berel
sorry, you disgusting fool, being limid zchis on yidden is NOT “crooked logic”. you should stop lying about holy men and spreading kefira in their name.
you will seemingly throw anyone or anything holy “under the bus” in order to push your fake anti-torah religion. at least the kofer @rescue is honest about trying to pull his audience, R”L, away from Torah.To somejew
You’re making a wrong assumption. Not every Mechallel Shabbos has the status of an Apikorus.
>You’re making a wrong assumption. Not every Mechallel Shabbos has the status of an Apikorus.
I didn’t say that.
The closest I probably got was:from https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-is-a-jew#post-2502092
3. There is a red line of who is part of “amecha” (am yisroel/klal yisroel), and those basic requirements are 1) keeping most common mitzvos, 2) believing without doubt the 13 ikarim, 3) keeping shabbos publicly. Like any sugya, there is much beautiful Torah iyun in each part of that “red line” (what means “public”?, what are the exact terms of the ikarim?, etc) , but the red line exists whether we can identify the minutia of its precise location or not.”To rescue
There’s definitely a materialism problem in the frum community. My point is that you’re making nebulous pseudo-academic statements which are too generic to lead to meaningful discussion. Are you upset with frum Jews in general or with its leadership? If you would clarify that point it would be a good place to start.
Lol.
somejew is in a good mood lately …
somejew , whenever he is struggling with reading comprehension … gets in to good moods and dispenses compliments in a real royal fashion …
kdushat levi said that crooked logic should be employed in order to be melamed zhut on yehudim …
for sure , if straight logic is available , straight logic is preferable …
but when according to straight logic there is no limud zhut , then we should employ crooked logic …
and that , says the famous kdushat levi zhuto yagen aleinu , was the purpose of the creation of ‘crooked logic’ …
for example it is recounted that kdushat levi , when encountering a yehudi polishing his carriage in the middle of shmone esreh , lifted his eyes up to
heaven and said RBSH’O – look at your precious nation , even in the middle of polishing their carriages , they pray …
now — using this type of crooked logic to be melamed hov … runs according to kdushat levi , counter the purpose of ‘crooked logic’s creation
hope somejew understood it the second time around ….
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.qwerty, I asked some to check with a halachic authority whether his theory of assigning Jews to different groups, but I think he did not yet tell us what the answer was.
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