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Did you send yours in? And what exactly is being accomplished here? What will be to our benefit like they keep saying…?
I know some people refuse to send theirs in. Anybody here in that category? Care to explain why?
The census is specifically mandated in the US Constitution in order to insure that members of the US House of Representatives are allocated according to population. (Those who call the census “unconstitutional” obviously have not read the Constitution.) The courts have also ruled that state and local legislative bodies must be allocated somewhat according to population. So the census is an essential part of US democracy. Some extreme right wingers are urging people not to return the census forms; if enough refuse to do so the effect will be to allocate more representatives to states with fewer such right wingers. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
The government also takes the opportunity to collect additional information at the time of the census; it is not mandatory to respond to those additional questions but it helps our elected officials make intelligent decisions. The census bureau also conducts population surveys in between the decennial census, in part to keep the agency tested for the one that really counts, and also to provide additional information to governmental agencies. Typically only a small subset of the population will be surveyed.
One additional point is that old census records can be invaluable in tracing family ancestry. Many old census records are now available online through for-profit internet services who took the time to scan them in and index them. I’ve located several century ancestors in 19th century census records.
I got one of those survey ones whisch I dont feel like answering…
there are many unnecesary questions.
the constitution says to count the people which I gladly answer but what difference does it make what time ALL the people and children get up in the mornng and what time they go to work???????? Maybe they want to put up more D and F trains?!!!!
This is where my distrust in our president gets strongER!
mom12,
Most of the census questions are similar to those that have been asked for many years; President Obama had nothing to do with them. And yes, your response might eventually get more transportation funding for NY which would mean more D and F trains. Much government funding is allocated based on population and on use of public facilities. If enough people fail to answer the questions, New York will lose out and our local taxes will be higher as a result.
charliehall,
I don’t think the actual enumeration directly affect local funding, since the government uses statistical analysis to determine the actual population, estimating how many people it missed. Nevertheless, it does indirectly affect funding as a State can potentially lose a representative in the House as Congressional seat allocation constitutionally must be allocated based upon the actual enumeration without benefit of further statistical analysis.
mom12,
The census is done every few years so the government can keep track of what federally funded corporations need to be increased or decreased. So it would be just plain stupid not to send it in because its for your benefit that its being done. Even if theres are some pointless questions, whats the big deal to answer it? its from the government for pete’s sake!!!!
volvie,
The “statistical analysis” you mention also comes from census surveys! I happen to be a statistician and I know something about how this is done.
it is halachically questionable to count people
Also things like VA hospitals and other health facilities are often setup based on this info. It lets the people who plan these things figure out where more services are needed.
After all if $50million is being spent on a new VA hospital it would be nice to know where one is needed.
I would imagine if you really want to know all the things the data is used for look on the US Census web page
hello99, the Lakewood Rabbonim released a letter that it isn’t a problem to fill out the census form.
it is halachically questionable to count people
Please quote the source where there is any halachic issue with non-Jews performing a census.
The Wolf
One additional point is that old census records can be invaluable in tracing family ancestry. Many old census records are now available online through for-profit internet services who took the time to scan them in and index them.
Indeed. I’ve found quite a few ancestor records in the 1900, 1910, 1920 and 1930 censuses. And I’ll be ready to comb though the 1940 census when it becomes public in 2012.
The Wolf
“it is halachically questionable to count people”
This is referring to counting Klal Yisroel. The US government is making a count of its citizens. There is no problem to fill out the census.
hello99,
theres another halachah of “dinak d’malchusa dina”-the law of the land is the law. so people just dont cause trouble a nd a chilul hashem and just send in the census.
EDITED
D a, some poskim say it’s worse if they are counting everyone.
If u send Ina machatzis hashekel with it it’s no problem $0.50
HaShem Is Everywhere,
Please cite a source for your claim. We are learning the 7 Noachide laws in Daf Yomi right now and there is no prohibition of a census among them — unless you think that the US is a Jewish state or that President Obama is a Jew!
We see in Sefer Shmuel that it is dangerous for Yidden to be counted.
hello99,
We see in Sefer Shmuel that it is dangerous for a Jewish king to count the Yidden in the manner that Dovid HaMelech did. But the US census does not count only the Jews, nor is it conducted by a Jewish king.
There are many accounts in both TaNaCh & Torah SheB’al Peh of our travails in golus. It is unlikely that the Yidden were not counted at any time during their time in mitzrayim or bavel, yet I am unaware of any mention that they suffered a plague or other punishment as a result of such a census. If there is one I’m missing (or an account from other exiles) I’d appreciate if someone would mention it here.
anonforthis,
But the US census does not count only the Jews, nor is it conducted by a Jewish king.
And what makes you thing this point changes how halacha treats the count?
It is unlikely that the Yidden were not counted at any time during their time in mitzrayim or bavel
You are making two possibly fatal assumptions. One, that this in fact occurred; and two, even if it did, that it was the correct thing.
(I note these points without taking a position on the primary issue under discussion.)
“And what makes you thing this point changes how halacha treats the count?”
The count is not being done by Jews. There is no isur for non-Jews to count.
“One that this in fact occured”
The first recorded census was in Egypt, prior to the arrival of Avraham Avinu! Censuses were later conducted by Rome, by the Arab Umayyad Caliphs, by William I of England, and by the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem in Eretz Yisrael. The last four included Jews among the counted.
The count is not being done by Jews. There is no isur for non-Jews to count.
What is the halachic basis, if any, that allows a Jew to allow himself to be counted (by non-Jews) by actively cooperating with such count?
The last four included Jews among the counted.
Who said that, it having been done, was halachicly correct? And who said the Jews were willing pariticpants in it, in any event?
This article is from another website:
BMG Poskim and Roshei Yeshiva Release Letter Regarding Permissibility of Participating in 2010 Census
Thursday March 18, 2010
The letter is signed by the four senior poskim of Beth Medrash Govoha, Rav Yaakov Forchheimer, Rav Shmuel Meir Katz, Rav Osher Chaim Lieberman and Rav Shmuel Felder. The letter is also signed by the four roshei yeshiva, Rav Malkiel Kotler, Rav Dovid Schustal Rav Yeruchom Olshin and Rav Yisroel Neuman, and the mashgiach, Rav Matisyahu Salomon.
The note from the poskim states that there is no comparison between the American census and the census in Israel, regarding which certain Yidden are machmir, adding that never in the past – not during the census counts of 1980, 1990 or 2000 – has there been any sort of doubt about the halachic permissibility of participating in the census. The poskim also point out the importance of the census to the town of Lakewood and the services and funding it receives.
Failure to respond to the census carries a fine of up to $5,000, although that law is rarely enforced.
Aside from fulfilling a duty as a U.S. citizen, the census is also very beneficial to the Lakewood community. About 65 percent of Lakewood residents participated in the 2000 Census. Although that is in line with the national average, it means Lakewood received only 65 cents for every federal dollar it could have received had everybody participated.
Because April 1 is in the middle of Pesach, a time when people are away or busy with the holiday, it is important to fill out the census form and send it back in a timely manner. The form, as mentioned, is only 10 questions, and should take no longer than 10 minutes to fill out.
The population of Lakewood in the 2000 census was about 60,352. The projected population of Lakewood is 110,000. Askanim have told us that they are aiming for at least 96 percent participation, which would put the population of Lakewood at 100,000. This would designate Lakewood as a city, which will attract businesses and jobs, revenue for its tax base, transportation, other infrastructure projects, and many other issues.
And this is from the main YW site:
Warning: Census Scam Could Cost You Your Identity – April 1, 2010
WCBSTV reports: Today is the deadline to get your 2010 census forms in, but there are forms out there that may not be legit.
The real paperwork comes on a color background with ten questions and will never ask for your Social Security number, bank account information, or signature.
The majority of scams that people fall for now come via computer, as does the latest census scam.
If a census worker knocks on your door, insist on seeing a badge and a second form of identification. The badge will have an expiration date and a seal from the Department of Commerce.
Phony census forms are also asking for bank accounts, credit card information, usernames, and passwords. Never give that information out.
No census form asks for a donation or sends a request on behalf of a political party.
If you think you were scammed or want to confirm whether a census-taker is legitimate, click here to find your local census office to confirm or report any fraudulent activity.
charliehall, thanks for that information.
Volvie,
Please cite your sources that indicate that there is a halachic problem with participating in the census. If you don’t cite a real source other than your opinion I will have to assume that there is none.
EDITED
Nowhere, no how, have I asserted that “there is a halachic problem with participating in the census.” So please get your facts straight. What I did do was point out, by raising questions, was that your logic (attempting to discredit the other poster who maintained that it is “halachically questionable”) is faulty.
Your point that non-Jews are doing the count and that the Romans, Crusaders, and Arab Caliphs counted Jews previously, does not on its own answer hello99’s questions. So if you have anything of material to address the question on hand — which I again note I did not raise nor even state agreement with — by all means answer it.
EDITED
anon for this,
You are welcome!
volvie,
Participating in a census conducted by non-Jews cannot be halachically questionable if nobody has questioned it in 3000 years. That is the halachic basis. We do not invent new gezerot in our times.
Participating in a census conducted by non-Jews cannot be halachically questionable if nobody has questioned it in 3000 years.
Charlie,
On what basis do you assert that “nobody has questioned it in 3000 years.” Because you don’t know of it? Ignorance does not a fact make.
(And again I stress I am not asserting that there is anything wrong with participating in the census.)
There seems to be a fundamental disagreement here. One side says that something is unquestionaby permitted until it is proven forbidden. The other side says one cannot assume anything is unquestionably permitted , as it is always possible that some time in history it was questioned. I vote for the first side.
Reading the above conversation, no one took the stance that “one cannot assume anything is unquestionably permitted , as it is always possible that some time in history it was questioned.” That is your straw-man.
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