July 15, 2019 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1758618
I am unclear as to exactly what you are responding to in your last post. I don’t seem to have said anything further about the “question” that you raised.
Frankly, I’m actually not entirely sure what shaychus your question has to do with this thread in particular, unless you are suggesting that “virtually all gedolim” held that the Rebbe “went off” CH”V. If you’re not suggesting that, as I don’t believe you are, then maybe your question would be better posted on a separate thread dedicated specifically to that topic in which I would happily participate.July 15, 2019 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1758638
Not sure if my post didn’t go through, or if it’s simply stuck in the (I’m sure arduous) editing process (keep up the good work mods).
Not sure what your last post is responding to. I don’t think I said anything that was directed toward your “question”.
Furthermore, I’m not entirely sure I understand your posing of that question on this particular forum. it doesn’t seem to relate to the conversation above unless you are somehow trying to posit that the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZY”A was CH”V considered by “virtually all gedolim” to have “gone off”.
Might be a good idea to start a second thread with your question as the topic, I’d be happy to participate then and discuss it with you.July 15, 2019 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #1758682RSoParticipant
keraveltheint, thanks for the source in Zohar.
What it seems to be saying to me – and no, I don’t claim to be even a lower-level mekubal – is that when he’s alive a tzaddik is in this world, Olam Ha’asiyah, while after his passing and leaving this world (that’s what the Zohar seems to be saying “d’ispater mehai alma”) he is found in all of the [upper] three worlds.
Is that the way you understand it too?July 16, 2019 7:48 am at 7:48 am #1758690
I made My point very clearly. please read my previous posts carefully. I will summarize briefly. We know it is possible for great people to go off and the depths they can go to Is limitless. We therefore must establish criteria by wich we would know if a once great person went off. My best criteria would be if a broad consensus of gedolim said that a once great person went off. It is extremely obvious that if the Lubavitcher rebbe would have indisputably said “I am mashiach” a few decades ago and not under duress that a broad consensus of gedolim would have paseled him. I am making this point because many fellow Lubavitcher’s seem to think he is mashiach because he said so(I understand that you dispute this last point).July 16, 2019 7:53 am at 7:53 am #1758706yeshivishrockstar2Participant
Grey Matter: I have a different criterium than you: I think you should judge a leader by his results. So the Rambam, even though he was attacked, accomplished only good for klal Yisroel. The same by the baal shem tov. However, lehavdil, Moses Mendelson shr”y, although personally frum, destroyed much of klal yisroel. Same with Shabsai Tzvi.
The Lubavicher Rebbe is a mixedbag: He made tons of people frum and brought them closer to Hashem. However, he also ended up causing (albeit indirectly) many yidden to believe in kefira.July 16, 2019 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1758702
No that is not how I understand it. I understand it as meaning that the tzadik doesn’t leave this world, rather he is found, in addition, in the other three worlds. That’s how the Alter Rebbe understands it and explains it in Tanya, igeres hakodesh, epistle 27, and I rely on his kabbalistic knowledge. I don’t presume to have any understanding of any of these kabbalistic inyanim of my own (that would be highly intellectually dishonest and irresponsible, as I do not claim to have the ability to reach an understanding of these inyanim on my own.) Rather I rely on the Rebbeim to guide me in my understanding of it.
However you asked where the source of the idea comes from, and I provided the source.July 16, 2019 8:53 am at 8:53 am #1758767RSoParticipant
keraveltheint, once again thanks for the source. Tanya does indeed say it the way you put it!
Btw I note that at the end of that letter the Baal Hatanya writes that after his petira Moshe Rabbeinu’s neshama went into the 600,000 neshamos of Klaly Yisroel in each generation, something which in another much much much longer thread I argued was what was meant by “ispashtusa deMoshe bechol doro”, That is, the Zohar does not seem to be saying that in each generation there is only one person with the neshomoh of Moshe Rabbeinu, as has been claimed elsewhere.July 16, 2019 10:17 am at 10:17 am #1758817
Like I said above, when the RaMBa”M ZY”A released Moreh Nevuchim a great number of sefardim read into his work and came out believing that the chiyuv of mitzvas tefilin was only to be fulfilled in one’s mind as it was an allegorical mitzvah, thus they stopped putting on tefilin. Does that make the RaMBa”M a “mixed bag” or at some point do you simply acknowledge that people reading into Torah what they will does not speak as to the legitimacy of the source.
The same can be said of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai with the Zohar, which was quite literally the source of Shabsi Tzvi’s kefira, does that make Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai a “mixed bag” CH”V because (albeit indirectly) he caused CH”V CH”V (I do NOT believe this, just making a point) many yidden to believe in kefira?July 16, 2019 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1758775
You picked up on something very complicated that if you want to PM me I would be happy to discuss at length on a theoretical level, that being nishmas Moshe Rabbeinu being the neshama klalis. It’s one of my favorite topics which I’ve put significant time and research into. But b’kitzur you are right by saying that nishmas Moshe Rabbeinu is nispashet to all neshamos of klal yisroel, but wrong (to my humble knowledge) in your implication that that means it also can’t be mislabesh in one person. Again this is not the place to go into the discussion.July 16, 2019 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1759982manomarParticipant
Rambam wrote that to a certain element, where the authoritative work of hyad hachazakah was intended for everyone and carried the greatest weight in practice and in essence…
Rashbi did not disseminate it to the masses….
The topic under discussion was given to be disseminated to all the mAsses with the sameauthority or more as the other works….July 16, 2019 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1760058
Manomar, I’m sure you’re aware that my point was to bring out that just as the false ideas taken out of those works were not found in the text what-so-ever, so too here the ideas that certain fools in Chabad espouse are not found in the Rebbe’s Torah.July 16, 2019 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1760258
– [ ] Yeshivishrockstar that is an interesting criteria. One problem is there are Torah sources that don’t seem to fit with that. Chazal say there where unsure about whether or not to teach the ways of trickery to people “woe to me If I teach woe to me if I don’t. If I do tricksters may learn if I don’t they well say we don’t know there ways”. He concludes he should based on a pasuk (a second clear source) “This is the road. the righteous will walk in it and the wicked will stumble in it”. we accept a risk whenever we teach the right way. Chazal say ״Those who learn and leave it are worse than all”. Furthermore, it doesn’t solve the problem. It often isn’t clear the historical significance of a figure or work, until generations or even centuries after the author passes. I am concerned with determining whether or not an existing figure goes off.
The Rambam isn’t an issue with my criteria as he was far from universally rejected at any point for any of his works. He was simply controversial.July 17, 2019 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1760698
These are not “certain fools in chabad”. I have been learning chassidus since i was twenty, been to many chabad houses around the country, and i know many people in crown heights. According to my most generous estimate possible, there are thousands of people who believe the rebbe is moshiach, and hundreds and hundreds who believe the rebbe was never buried. A thousand years ago this would have comprised a respectable religion.July 17, 2019 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1760696
Quit the PR game.July 17, 2019 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1760710
If they are called fools by you,
then they have a chiyuv of al yeivosh mipnei hamaligim and to disregard you.July 17, 2019 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1760712
If you read my other posts you’ll find I’m no PR man. MANY certain fools, does that suit you better? My point was simply that these ideas represent a misunderstanding at best, and a deliberate misrepresentation at worst, of the Rebbe’s Torah and the concepts found in the Rebbe’s Chassidus. I make no claims to any estimates as to the number of these fools in Chabad.July 17, 2019 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1760715
what happened to my other posts
it looked like several copies of the same thing so I approved the most recent one and deleted the othersJuly 17, 2019 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #1760792
Does that suit me? Almost but not quite. Why insist on calling them fools? They are merely following the mesorah that was bequethed to them by their parents, namely, that the rebbe thought he was moshiach and wanted his chassidim to reveal him as such. Don’t forget that many of these people are now young adults and like the chozrim b’teshuvah may have no way of knowing any better. Perhaps “simple minded” is a better term. This lets known to all that any simple minded minded person educated in chabad is at risk of being an apikorus or having heretical views.
The term “fool” can refer to the lubavicher who proudly told me that half of 770 turned their backs to the aronkodesh and davened minchah (shmoneh esrei) towards the rebbe when he was sick.July 18, 2019 9:39 am at 9:39 am #1760908Yserbius123Participant
Would “Tinokos SheNishbu” be a better description? How about referring to those people in the same way we would refer to Reform, Conservative, Open Orthodox, and other non-frum religious Jews?July 21, 2019 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1762291
Agreed. My objection to the use of the word fool implies that one needs to be a fool to not be maamin according to the Torah. This is not so! Just as a christian does not need to be a fool to believe in jcpenny, a lubavicher need not be a fool to have heretical beliefs.July 21, 2019 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1762326knaidlachParticipant
I am so surprised to see ביזוי תלמיד חכם ברבים. I am מוחה ברבים.July 21, 2019 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1762341
I’m comfortable with the word fools. Pesukim in tehilim refer to those who deny Hashem as fools. the Rambam in igeret Teman refers to believers in jc as fools. perhaps being raised to think foolishly is a kinder way of wording it.July 22, 2019 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1763234
Exactly! Christians and Lubavitchers are otherwise normal people who are raised to think foolishly. Well said.
Knaidlach, exactly which bizuy of a talmid chochom are you talking about? That they davened minchah facing the Rebbe? That’s not just a bizuy of a Gaon and Tzaddik, but a bizuy of the Ribbono Shel Olam!July 29, 2019 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #1767227
Gevalt!August 2, 2019 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1768806AlterChnyokParticipant
Oy Vey. What have they done to the Rebbe? …meharsayich umachrivayich mimeayich… His dedicated chassidim, who blindly and faithfully followed him, and still do today, trample on his legacy.
Ten years (almost) before the petirah (histalkus) of the Rebbe, there was a brilliant and exceptionally perceptive chosid who clandestinely attempted to convince some of the wiser chassidim, that the Rebbe could possibly pass away, and that we will miss Mashiach’s arrival (if you need to believe you know who he is, which is the hepech of the hessech hadaas needed for his coming – but anyway…) in this swing of the history pendulum. It has happened before. The Zohar says (Breishis 139…) that by 1648 (in our count, 5408 in the Zohar) “…dror yihyeh ba’aretz…” and techiyas hameism will be happening already. What did happen was of course is history. The Holocaust before, and until our Holocaust, the raging and ravaging Chmeilnicki mobs.
Alas, it was etched in the Lubavitch shtuss of stone, that the Rebbe could not die. So essentially, the stone remains and, well, he didn’t really die.
Whenever the Rebbe said those things that were taken as him saying he was Mashiach, I stood there listening, understood it quite differently (example to follow) and was dismayed at what I knew everyone else was hearing. I had been influenced by this visionary chasid. He (the Rebb) said Mashiach is here. Open your eyes and you will see he is here. I was hearing him say “…there is a successor to take the mantle. Open your eyes and you will see him.” He was talking to the blind and the deaf. No eyes to open, and ears whose sensory waves were obstructed on their way to that part of the brain of daas – judgement/common sense.
The Rebbe rejoiced when the Lev Simcha was anointed as a successor to his brother, the Beis Yisroel. (The Rebbe would rejoice by gushing forth with Torah. He said a whole sichah about this succession!) There was hardly a Rebbe who was nistalek that the Rebbe did not stick his nose in (zai mir mochel Rebbe) to ensure that there was a succession. The Rebbe who would not (and it was obvious that he personally could not) take advice from anyone, this same Rebbe appointed a committee to draft a tzava’a, the most personal thing that anyone wants to do it “his way”, he gave to a committee of elders. (As it turns out, alteh shoytim.) WHY? Did it not occur to anyone that the request itself pointed to some type of desired result? Something he wanted but was not for him to write. (In Lubavitch a Rebbe never appoints a successor. Chassidim appoint, and there was only one instance in the whole dynasty where there was no question, and thus an immediate succession, because there was a ben yachid – the Rebbe Rayatz – and no sofek. In all other instances (in unrevised modern Lubavitch history) there was a period of consensus-consolidation.) To this wise chassid I mentioned, there was only one possibility – he wanted them to describe a system of establishing succession. They wrote one draft, he returned it with comments, and then a second, which was never heard of (by the klal) again. It was said that he didn’t sign it. End of story. It was not the end. He wrote an extremely sharp comment on the back, basically saying that you are leaving me with nothing to follow me. But yet again, as on so many occasions, he overestimated the sechel of the people. There are so many examples that it is impossible to document here, or in fact anywhere of value.
So, those Lubavitcher chassidim who have sweated it out here, with this chassid ben chassid ben chassid all the way back to the Tzemach Tzedek documented, and beyond speculated, you ask how can it be? The Rebbe misjudged his chassidim by overestimation? The answer is in the Chumash. Mah Hashem… what does Hashem want from you, says Moshe, ki im only to fear/respect him. Poshet pshat (before the deeper pshat of the Tanya) the Gemara asks, vechi yir’ah milsa zutresei? Is such a deep respect as to approach fear, a simple matter (as Moshe Rabbenu made it sound)? Yes, the Gemara answers, simple, to Moshe Rabbenu. For him this was no big deal, this very deep respect. The Gemara (Poshet Pshat rabboisay) says that for Moshe it was simple and he thus presented it as a simple and easy goal to accomplish. He overestimated the am.
Ay Rebbe, Rebbe, to overestimate is also part of chachamim hizaharu bedivreichem, shema…
To those looking from outside who still don’t get it about Lubavitch today, just remember this mass movement in Lubavitch (those who cannot imagine a chassid not seeing it their way) remember them when you say “tzon kodoshim” in hoshaanos. The greatest scholar among them, stood up on a table (bechayei haRebbi) and made such a stupid declaration (which so firmly anchored this whole notion) that what do we want from the sheep that follow? (He only distinguishes himself from Yeravam ben Nevat in that he did recant, and Yeravam didn’t. But how do you move an ocean liner anchored in mud with a recant? It was too late. And so, until there is a hessech hadaas, where all yiden haven’t a clue about when and where he is coming from (vechol shkeyn who he is) we must wait and accept the matzav kemoi shehi.October 17, 2019 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1793297
ehhhhh……. What’s going on here? Moshiach can’t come from the dead?
Has the non lubavitc world gone beserk?
perhaps i should be dan l’kaf zchus and assume that you guys didn’t
properly study the Gemara on Sanhedrin 98b, or the Abarbanel (ישועות משיחו פרק א) , or the many other commentaries that explain the possibility of Moshiach rising from the dead.October 17, 2019 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1793298
In a talk which is printed in Likutei sichos chelek beis on p. 513, The Lubavitcher Rebbe said as follows:
“I was asked how It’s possibles to say “arise and rejoice those who dwell in the dust” regarding my Father-in-law the Rebbe, that he will redeem us. After all, It is known that fist Moshiach will come and the Techiyas Hameisim will occur. If so how can one possibly say that the Rebbe is moshiach?
in resolution: although, Moshiach will first come and then Techiyas Hameisim will happen, this is only in regards to the general public however the very special ones will come back to life before Moshiach comesin the same veindfghy as is explained in stories brought down in shas as well as midrashim including Avoda Zara 10b.”October 17, 2019 10:09 am at 10:09 am #1793308Reb EliezerParticipant
Only to Hilel whose view ia according to Rav Abarbanel that there will not be forty years between the coming of Meshiach and Techiyas Hamesim can be that Meshiach will ariise from the dead.October 17, 2019 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1793315☕️coffee addictParticipant
Why is the rebbe any better than any of the tannaim, amoraim, rishonim, geonim, etc.
That he’s moshiach and will come from the dead
Why do you have to name someone as moshiach, just wait for his arrival and find out then who it isOctober 17, 2019 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1793372WhatsaktomeParticipant
Just for the record when the rebbe said that the freideke rebbe will reddem us he quoted a medrash (in the footnotes – basi legani tof shin yud alef) that even though moshe rabbeinu wont be moshiach but he will still lead his generation to moshiachOctober 17, 2019 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1793370
There are numerous points being made and although I am not a Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva I will add my few words. I don’t mean to be Maarich but had no choice.
I (too) grew up in Litvish Yeshivos such as Chaim Berlin, South Fallsburg, Itri etc… My Father’s side of the family comes from the pinnacle of the true Chabad. My Mother’s side comes from true Belz Chassidim. My parents were very Makpid that the children should have a strong Yesode in Nigleh before they embark on learning Chassidus. Once we were finished High School we were given the option if we were interested, to go to a Lubavitch Yeshiva .
My family would go to the Rebbe for Yechidus before Yomim Tovim, before Simchos, for Brachos and to be Shoel Eitzah only when it was seriously needed. I went before my Bar Mitzvah and the Rebbe asked me to repeat my P’shetl and also asked me about the Maamar. I also asked for his Brocho when I was ready to get engaged, before my Chasunah and once again on the day of my Chasunah.
I slept in the same house when R’ Yaakov Kamenetzsky was there (another time when R’ Chaim Kreizworth was there). We had simple family type of conversation in the kitchen. I went to R’ Moshe Feinsten, Skulener Rebbe, R’ Shneur Kotler, R’ Shmuel Birnbaum, the Satmar Rebbe including to his Levaya and more. I went there to daven, for Brochos etc… My sisters married Youngerleit from Bobov, Torah V’Daas, Noverminsk and Lubavitch. My Shver is a Yerushalmi who learnt in Ponovitch, his father was a Rosh Yeshivah in Minsk and my Shviger is from a prominent family in Chabad. Her father saw all of the 3 previous Lubavitcher Rebbes.
I hope this gives you a fair glimpse of my background.
I don’t usually spend too much time reading the coffee room topics because I dislike coffee and at most drink tea. I believe this is only the 2nd time I am taking (too much) time to respond to a post.
1- The extremists who in this case are the ones who stick out or make all the noise causing most if not all of the (negative) issues mentioned in the comments. Those singing songs, screaming Yechi and trying to impose their views on the world around them are part of this group. In Halocho, Rishonim and Achronim there were many opposing opinions and each had different Pisukim to add credence to their claim.
2- For the point mentioned that they are heretics, how many people here ever went into a Chabad house for food or Daven or etc.. ? How about Simchas Beis Hashoeivah in Crown Heights?
3- How many went into a Sukkah put up by Lubavitch while traveling? If it were a Reform or Conservative Synagogue would you do the same? How many Rabbonim or Chassidishe Rebbes did the same (including the Satmar Rebbes)?
4- Have you eaten Rubashkin meat or chicken (even served by many Yeshivos) in the past (before the whole fiasco)? This was a primarily Lubavitcher Shechita and Hashgacha.
5- Besides R’Menashe Klien there were many more who came to the Lubavitcher Rebbe including Rav Wolfson from Emunas Yisroel went to him may times and constantly uses references from Chabad Chassidus and Tanya in his Schmuesen.
6- R’ Avigder Miller is totally on point.
7- Although many are not familiar with how to Daven at Kivrei Tzadikim yet people from all backgrounds go to the Ribnitzer Rebbe, The Heilige Barditchiver, R’Shimon Bar Yochai, Meoras Hamachpeiloh, Kever Rochel just to name a few. Most who know or understand hopefully do the correct thing. Perhaps you should try to direct the others to speak with their Rov or Mashpia rather than (perhaps) creating a strife and causing Machlokes. Do people Daven to the Kosel Hamaaravi and put in Kevitlach into a stone wall? No they Daven to Hashem and hope that Kedushas Hamokom or the Z’chus of the Avos or Imahos Misayaatom will help them.
8- Why do people go to a Tzadik or Rov to be Shoel Eitza or for a Brocho? Because it helps devoid any Sifeikos Ayn Simcha Kiatoras Hasfeikos. It leaves the Ones on the person they went to so long as they follow his words to the fullest extent. R’Chaim Kaniyevsky told people to stay in Eretz Yisroel until after they vote at the elections a few weeks ago. He said that it is important to do so even before attending a Bris. 100 years ago NO body would believe that it would even be a Hava Amina that a Rov would give this P’sak. However sometimes things change and it is truly needed and must be Shtark un Sharf. Men Muz Kerin A Velt!
9- Is the Rebbe still alive? Tzadikim Bimisosom Kriuyim Chaim. Sifsosuv Dovivos Bakever. On a lighter note (not to make lite) I used to Daven at a Shul and the Rov is part of the Lubavitch Chevra Kadisha. He said that he is 100% sure that the Rebbe is in an Aron buried in the Ohel. He himself went down into the Bor before the Kever was closed up.
10- A person may (perhaps) believe that his Rebbe could possibly be Moshiach perhaps even if he passed away (according to some). If he is, and it doesn’t make a difference who may he reveal himself ASAP. Yomar L’Tzoroseinu Daei. We don’t know what we are in for but we can’t take it anymore.
There is plenty more I can add but I will end with this true story which was never made public just told over privately.
I was at a Levaya when R’Shneur Kotler Said to my father ztz’l “Oib Nish Ihr Volt Nisht Given Kein Lakewood”. My father was part of the Lubavitcher Yeshiva in Lakewood. I can’t go into the many details in order to have some anonymity. Yet I did tell this (and all the details) to R’Malkiel a few years ago.
Creating animosity and negative rhetoric Sinas Chinom on both sides of the street is Asur Midioraisah. I am Mochel anyone who responds negatively to my comments.
Wishing all that Z’Man Simchoseinu Zohl Mamshich Zein Af A Gantz Yohr.October 17, 2019 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1793421
Re: post # 131 – I would like to correct a accidental mistake.. My father was a Talmid of the Lubavitcher Yeshiva in Shanghai.October 18, 2019 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1793445
Oh wow, is your father still alive? Does he remember Rav Pinchus Hirschprung?October 18, 2019 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1793446HmeirParticipant
Rav Fienstien of righteous memory say clearly in devoros moshe Siman 9, regarding rabbanu tam tefilin.. where he refers to the Lubavitcher Rebbe of righteous memory “ a Goan and Tzaddik an Admor, thanking him for the assistance for having put on rabbanu tam. ..October 18, 2019 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1793453☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
“ihr” – I assume he meant “ehm.”
Why do you capitalize every non-English word? (Also, “onus” is English.)October 18, 2019 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1793457GadolhadorahParticipant
After reading through 132 posts, I come away with one question. What will all the misnagdim do if they wake up in the morning and discover moishiach has arrived and he sets up his interim HQ on Eastern Parkway while arranging a charter flight to EY?October 18, 2019 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1793534Yserbius123Participant
@Gadolhadorah We would say OK, that’s nice. What does the location of Moshiach’s HQ matter?
@YC GEVALDIG I can’t address every point you made, and a lot of them have been addressed in previous comments, but I’ll pick a few low hanging fruit to focus on.
In Halocho, Rishonim and Achronim there were many opposing opinions and each had different Pisukim to add credence to their claim.
Pisukim to add credence to their claim. The “extremists” (who are much more mainstream Chabad than you make them out to be) do not. They have Sichos and Likutim from Rav Schneerson ZT”L which are not only possible inaccurately recorded, but are often vague and out of context. Which brings me to the next point “from the point of view that they are heretics”. Yes. If they believe in something that goes directly against the Torah and meforshim with the only basis being a line on a 20th century sefer written by some random Chabadsker claiming to quote his Rebbe ZT”L, that is heresy.
As for taking advantage of all the good Chabad does in the world, I do not see a stirah. As a frum Jew, I assume every Chabadsker is a frum Jew unless I have good reason to believe otherwise. So until I see a picture of Rav Schneerson ZT”L on the Aron Kodesh (Ch”VSh) I will assume that the Chabad house is a regular frum shul, hechsher, sukkah, whatever.
And no one is denying the gadlus of the previous Rebbe ZT”L. He was a gadol b’Torah, that is certain. It’s certain things he may or may not have said, along with the actions of his followers, that people take into question.October 18, 2019 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1793601
Random – “Ihr” is a way of saying “You” in 3rd person. The word “Ones” is meant to be in Loshon Hakodesh meaning in “mistake”.
Yserbius – You are correct! I agree completely. I am not sure what book you are talking about and if it is as you say then it is Toras Lukshin. Don’t even be Gores it. The extremists are beyond mainstream, the ones making all the noise is what the world is taking for granted as being the mainstream. Just as you say “Random Chabadsker” those who follow real Chabad Chassidus are not the ones who make the noise ie. similar to those who were dancing at the Rebbe’s Levaya or those who make a line till this day for dollars and make a path for him to come down to his seat for davening. Most Lubavitcher’s think that these people are sick. Ki Hamiat Mikem. People look at most of those things and that is where a lot of the negative response in the world regarding Chabad comes from.
Not to point fingers just rather as an example: Many think that Breslov is the people who put on loud music, dress a certain way or even do drugs and get drunk saying that is what Rabeinu Nachman wanted. To the contrary, the true Chassidim are those who sit and become B’Simcha through D’Veikus. People think that Satmar are Neturei Karta, they are only a very small few who kiss a Muslim and protest in Washington or Manhattan while wearing a Shtreimel on Shabbos etc..
I will say that there are certain similarities between all 3 (and many other) groups. Chabad is all over the world and therefore the issues have become more prominent. similarly are the naysayers. On the flip side the way people’s view and claim against the group as a whole is somewhat distorted. Yaakov Avinu put Eider Eider Livado in order for the small group coming towards Eisav to look like a large nation with lots of gifts. When people are spread out all over the world in smaller groups it looks like the problem of the few is much greater than factual. We are all entitled to our opinions, this is mine.
There are many who say that the “Rebbe said” yet it is what many are reading in between the lines or how the Sicha talks to them. Btw to dispel any myths; He never said that he is Moshiach. In fact at one time he even rebuked them for the context of a song the were singing.
Defend Chabad – Unfortunately my father is no longer with us, otherwise he would be 98 years old. My father spoke about him from time to time. He is in the famous Tomchei Temimim picture taken there. I personally remember Rav Pinchos Hirshprung. My brother was his Talmid in Montreal.
A Gutten Shabbos!October 18, 2019 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1793621Reb EliezerParticipant
When it comes to the Rabbenu Taam’s tefillin, look ar the Aruch Hashulchan SA O’CH 34October 20, 2019 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1793715BneiBorockObamaParticipant
There is heresy, and then there is heretically influenced. There was an instance of public idol worship that was never condemned. It was certainly influenced through attitudes (that were official or unofficial) which were never accepted in our tradition. There is reason and evidence to believe that it still influences Chabad in a noxious manner.
That’s all.October 20, 2019 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1793750
Hey, where do you see influences of idol worship in Chabad?October 20, 2019 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1793786☕️coffee addictParticipant
In Ywn’s whatsapp status today there was someone that put a moshiach flag on the Aron at 770 and other Lubavitchers were trying to stop himOctober 20, 2019 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1793784
@Yeshivishrockstar2: “There’s a website called “Identifying Chabad” which purports to show that Chabad is a”z.”
The owner of the website personally admitted to me that his attacks are not only directed against today’s modern Chabad world, but also against the entire Chassidic movement as well as the earlier Kabbalists such as the Arizal etc. How could you quote such a hateful writer? are you insinuating that you share his views? how could you even say that he raises “valid points”? Do you identify as a sympathizer of his? I would appreciate if you clarify yourself. Thanks.October 20, 2019 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1793797WhatsaktomeParticipant
Chabad has nothing to do with a”z r”l, some concepts in JUDAISM are a fine line between them and a”z, but they aren’t ch”v a”z and they are not specific to chabad
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.