Chabad? Most non religious Jews are not halachikly Jewish.

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  • #1699863

    Haimy
    Participant

    Chabad reaches out to all non observant Jews. How do the deal with the fact that most non religious Jews in the US are actually non Jews because their mother was a non Jew. The vast majority of conversions in the US are through the conservative & reform which are not halachikly valid.
    Chabad recently had a weekend in Crownheights for Jewish teens from all over the US, the only criteria was that you consider yourself Jewish. Aren’t they promoting intermarriage by bringing together boys & girls, Jews & non Jews?
    Are they putting tefillin onto non Jews?
    Giving Shabbos candles to non Jews?

    #1700204

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Where do you get the idea that most non-religious jews arent halachically jews. Assuminng half the intermarriages have a jewish mother, the person is jewish even if their name is Christian O’Hallahan.

    As as I understand it , if someone comes to Chabad and is a zera yisroel, they urge them to convert (Plenty of poskim like Rav Ovadiah Yosef hold this position)

    #1700202

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Please cite some statistics to back up your claim that “most non religious Jews in the US are actually non Jews.”

    The Wolf

    #1700239

    Chossid
    Participant

    There we go a again.
    Loshen hara
    Can I know where you get the fact that the teen program has non jews?
    The fact is, only Jews are allowed to be in the program, which means only if the mother was Jewish.
    So stop with the lies
    And in fact it’s a teen program for the whole entire world, not just USA.

    Why can’t the mods moderate, and make sure that you can’t post lies on the CR, they should research the facts before posting.
    Not everyone that has a stomach ache can just post online, loshen hara.

    #1700316

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Chossid; you wrote, “the fact is, only Jews are allowed to be in the program.” THAT is exactly the issue: how do the program directors know who is Jewish? Do they ask each participating teen if they are indeed Jewish? Is that how it works in halacha? I seriously doubt that the program directors convene a beis din to pasken on each participant? If one of these kids become frum, would you let your own son or daughter marry them — just because they say they’re Jewish?
    The OP’s question is totally legitimate.

    #1700313

    jdf007
    Participant

    I don’t find many “conservative & reform” groups that accepting of Chabad or any other group. I wonder what types of kids are there. How many completely unaffiliated people are out there?

    #1700245

    The little I know
    Participant

    While I challenge your assumptions, as properly expressed by ZD and Wolf, you do pose a valid question. There may be cases in which the halachic Jewish ancestry is problematic. Knowing many shluchim and those who go on mivtza’im, I do not see any verification or investigation being done. I have no clue what the numbers might be, but it is something that should be explored.

    Now, let’s assume there is a halachic non-Jew here. Is there an issur involved in putting him on tefillin? I doubt that. Anything wrong with providing this individual with Shabbos candles? Another doubt. Intermarriage – that is a great question. This question is relevant to the large population of Baalei Teshuvah and not specific in any way to Chabad.

    #1700276

    Haimy
    Participant

    A Chabad rabbi in the southern US told my chavrusa that about 75% of those who claim to be Jewish in his town are actually non Jews. As of 2013 the intermarriage rate among the non Orthodox was 71% & continues to rise exponentially. The reform & conservative perform many thousands of conversions each year. According to Pew research 1 in 6 Jews in the US is a convert. You can be sure the majority of those converts aren’t Orthodox.
    It is quite possible that more than 50% of those who claim to be Jewish in the US are actually ainom Yehudim.

    #1700280

    adocs
    Participant

    “the fact that most non religious Jews in the US are actually non Jews because their mother was a non Jew”

    Fact? Most?

    Source, please?

    #1700282

    jdf007
    Participant

    “How do the deal with the fact that most non religious Jews in the US are actually non Jews because their mother was a non Jew.”
    Yeah, if you’re in certain suburbs of the sunbelt maybe, which is the first time I’ve ever heard of such a thing. But not where I come from.
    Of course, due to flight to the suburbs, etc. my experience isn’t even the norm anymore either.

    But lets ignore the vague generality for a moment. How many of these teens grew up “Reform” or “Conservative” going to these Chabad events, especially as a teen, versus those who are nothing more than just Jewish? Maybe it varies from city to city, but it seems to me that these two denominations aren’t always the most accepting of Chabad as a whole.
    So, given that most of the kids probably don’t pay dues anywhere, and they get the linage grilling just like everyone else, the chances of your fears might actually be far LESS than the original post.
    But of course, cities vary, but I really doubt it in this case.

    #1700283

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “As as I understand it , if someone comes to Chabad and is a zera yisroel, they urge them to convert”
    This is not the position taken by Chabad. I don’t fully understand the OP, though. If Chabad feeds say 25 people for Shabbos, what difference does it make if 10 of them are goyim? What exactly is there to “deal with?”

    #1700284

    jdf007
    Participant

    How many of these teens grew up “Reform” or “Conservative” going to these Chabad events, especially as a teen, versus those who are nothing more than just Jewish? Maybe it varies from city to city, but it seems to me that these two denominations aren’t always the most accepting of Chabad as a whole.
    So, given that most of the kids probably don’t pay dues anywhere, and they get the linage grilling just like everyone else, the chances of your fears might actually be far LESS than assumed.
    But of course, cities vary, but I really doubt it in this case.
    I don’t know why everyone has to be affiliated with something. I’d make the generality that a lot of people out there have never been in a synagogue, and if they even have, it was once a year tops.

    #1700285

    Joseph
    Participant

    We can quibble whether it is above or below 50%, but it is clearly a huge percentage.

    #1700301

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Chossid,
    I don ‘t know about this Haimy guy, but I’m pretty much convinced there’s basically one dude causing most of the rioting. I caught joseph switching a username to my thread from ujm to joseph within minutes of his posting, and I’d like to know how he did that w/o “inside” help
    He also slipped in a virulent video months ago to which I responded, but that got deleted. Mod 29 asked my about it, apparently he didn’t know about it, but did another mod know? A search going back to 2009 will show that this dude’s been carrying on for a decade.

    #1700331

    akuperma
    Participant

    Increasingly a large percentage of non-frum people with Jewish names are goyim, and many persons with non-Jewish names are Jews. In America, most Jews have not had a frum ancestor for over a century, and unless they are “into” genealogy they have no way to determine if they are actually Jews. Intermarriage has been a major factor in western countries since the early 19th century. This means a movement doing “kiruv” has to understand that someone with a Jewish surname who claims Jewish ancestry probably is goy, and a someone with a non-Jewish name who says they have Jewish ancestors quite possibly is Jewish. The only exception are people whose families went “off the derekh” recently, meaning their halachic status is easy to determine. — This is also an interesting problem if you want to use a Shabbos Goy — On the bright side, if you hold than a non-frum marriage ceremony among Jews creates a valid marriage ( a problem since virtually no non-frum Jews bother with a “get”), meaning children born outside the initial marriage are mamzerim, the fact the non-frum Jews are increasingly goyim, means they probably should be seen as being “safek goy, safek mamzerim” (cf. Ethiopian Jews) which resolves the problem. One should also note that conversion of a person who becomes frum only to realize they aren’t Jewish is NOT a major problem (they already are Shomer Mitsvos) and avoids having to worry about the intimate behavior of long dead ancestors,.

    #1700333

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Chossid,
    Note that the responses after yours were posted within about a minute after each other and joseph already knows that Haimy wrote about his 50% .

    #1700338

    Joseph
    Participant

    “the fact the non-frum Jews are increasingly goyim, means they probably should be seen as being “safek goy, safek mamzerim” (cf. Ethiopian Jews) which resolves the problem.”

    This does NOT resolve the problem. Because since he’s a safek mamzer, that means he’s by definition a Jew. And a safek mamzer is a much bigger problem than a safek goy.

    #1700351

    Eli Y
    Participant

    I have davened in a Chabad shul for years and can unequivocally say that a person is not recognized by the Rabbi’s as a Jew without positive evidence that his or her mother is a Jew. Period, over and out. Any other statement is either a misunderstanding or an outright lie.

    #1700353

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    The question posed doesn’t actually make sense. Non religious Jews would by definition be Jewish.

    When I approach someone on the street, or wherever, and ask if he’d like to put on Tefilin, first I ask: “Excuse me, are you Jewish by any chance?” Most people say no. Most Jews ignore me. Of the Jews that don’t ignore me, most don’t want to put on Tefilin. When someone says they’d like to put on Tefilin, and they say they’re Jewish, there’s no reason to assume otherwise. It’s not Siddur Kiddushin. Occasionally, I will ask someone which of their parents was Jewish, as not to give away the “correct” answer.

    When we get someone involved in our Chabad Houses and communities, we almost always know whether they’re legitimately Jewish or not. Their Bubby’s and Zaides were often Frum or traditional. When admitting a child into our Hebrew School, Chabad HQ (Merkos) policy is that they must be verified as Jewish. When being Mesader Kiddushin we do a proper Birur Yahadus, often through a competent Rov or Bais Din.

    In short, Haimy, you don’t know much about Chabad or non religious Jews, so please educate yourself before being Motzi Shem Ra on others.

    #1700365

    The shchuna
    Participant

    These teens have in all year program. With special chabad rabbis just to serve the teens in that chabad house. They don’t just show up in crown heights they go to a chabad house every week

    #1700373

    Haimy
    Participant

    I read the brochure inviting all Jewish teens to attend which didn’t mention anything about a Jewish mother. Even if 25% were non Jews is that ok? There are no formal studies about the percentage of secular Jews who are halachikly Jewish. There’s no question in many areas of the US the majority of Jews are not Yehudim. Should we be stopping random people on a public square & putting tefillin on them knowing that many are not Jewish?
    I E ven when secular Jews marry each other, many of those they are marrying are actually non Jews who think they are Jewish. Should we be treating all cultural Jews as though they are halachikly Jewish?

    #1700391

    Joseph
    Participant

    People who think they’re Jewish but are not include those

    1. Who converted via non-Orthodox
    2. Who have a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother (paternal descent)
    3. Who were adopted by non-religious Jews
    4. With a supposedly Jewish mother (and father) but the mother’s mother (or mother’s mother’s mother, etc.) is one of the above (#1, #2 or #3) or maternally descended thereof any number of generations back.

    And such people (#4) could even honestly mistakenly think they come from a fully Jewish heritage, on all sides. And will claim as such if asked (for kiruv or marriage purposes.)

    And #4 can go back quite a few generations (i.e. five+ generations back) considering that the Reform movement is 200 years old and in the United States intermarriages have been a consistent issue for the last 150 years and false conversions even longer (as those started in 1800s Germany.)

    In short, a large percentage of self-identified Jews who don’t come from a straight line of Orthodox descent are, in fact, gentiles.

    And identifying who is not Jewish based on maternal descent over the past 200 years is an extremely difficult task in many or most cases, requiring a very large amount of research and investigations that in 2019 may or may not result in a definitive determination.

    #1700421

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I read the brochure inviting all Jewish teens to attend which didn’t mention anything about a Jewish mother. Even if 25% were non Jews is that ok?”

    Why wouldn’t it be? If they advertised: “only students with Jewish mothers allowed!” they would get almost nobody. Use your common sense. They aren’t mekareving everyone who shows up to a mass event on the spot. They’ll get the answer before they zoom in on individuals who have real potential.

    #1700432

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “Why wouldn’t it be? If they advertised: “only students with Jewish mothers allowed!” they would get almost nobody. Use your common sense. They aren’t mekareving everyone who shows up to a mass event on the spot. They’ll get the answer before they zoom in on individuals who have real potential”

    That’s a good svara, but in reality it doesn’t work like that. The event is for teens who attend the CTeen programs at their local Chabad House, who come to NY for a weekend with their Shluchim.

    #1700453

    Haimy
    Participant

    Who would show up at a Chabad event if they weren’t Jewish? They don’t advertise it as a Chabad event at all, just as a week of celebrating in NYC for Jewish teens. I’m not intending to bash Chabad but to bring up a valid point that much of their clientele are nebach disapearing to intermarriage. Maybe the future Chabad house will be intended to promote Noahide observance among non Jews.
    I do not trust the vetting process they have in place. I believe much too many non Jews are being catered to & then urged to convert.

    #1700456

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Heimy maybe find out if you are takeh jewish maybe one of ur great grandparents were not jewish and only thought they were jewish for whatever reason so ur not jewish.
    (All on ur mothers side 🙂 )

    That’s what i understand from your question

    #1700460

    Chossid
    Participant

    Haimy where exactly to you get your facts from?
    Or your just interested in hate.
    Why is your question to Chabad a not all kiruv organizations?

    I work in the teen program and each teen that comes to the shabbaton, was in the teen program for at least a year, and no rabbi is interested in putting so much effort in a goiy, and any time we a approach someone for tefillin, we ask if his mothers mother was Jewish, and before we marry them the rabbonim do a thorough research in there yichus, check their grandparents kvura, and many other things.
    One of the rules chabad has is, that we won’t even “bar mitzvah” someone that his not Jewish, or someone that didn’t have an Orthodox conversion, because that might lead to a different rabbi marring him off, and using some “rayeh” that he had a orthodox rabbi by his bar mitzvah, (even though it’s not a rayeh.)
    Every chabad house rabbi knows exactly who is Jews and who is not in his Chabad house, no one is interested in putting thousands of dollars into someone to grew in his Judaism, if he is not Jewish.
    On side note I know of a shliach that didn’t accept $200,000 at least, from someone to build his Chabad house, because he was not Jewish and he wanted his name on the building.
    So get your facts straight.

    #1700461

    Chossid
    Participant

    american_yerushalmi
    I hope you got your answer

    #1700462

    Chossid
    Participant

    ZionGate
    Cool , interesting.
    But I don’t really get it.
    If it’s true it’s a real chutzpah, and it’s complete hatred.
    But either way you should work in the FBI, or special council committee.

    #1700463

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Chassidism teaches how to look beyond the halachah and see the latent Jewish soul in a person.

    #1700478

    justme22
    Participant

    Why is this any different than any Hillel house in a school why is only Chabad the issue here.
    If they don’t make the event all the Jewish ones are missing out they might become frum , if someone comes and is Jewish and meets a half Jew ( non Jew) and marries him or her chances are he would have met a non Jew without joining the event. On the other if someone who is half Jewish decides to become frum chances are his new Jewish community will inform him he is not Jewish if his mom is not Jewish.
    What will almost certainly happen is that a few real Jews might hear their first kiddush , a few might keep their only shbs or perhaps their first. Their first devar torah
    Much more to gain here than to loose.
    I think people who have only one Jewish parent ussually say so early in conversation they don’t even realize it’s an issue so they announce it. Therefore Chabad or whomever can proceed perhaps at the retreat they will learn they are not really Jewish and save others from marrying them.
    Millennials as think look now are probably the last generation that one can assume that chances are thar both parents are Jewish. ( maybe 80% , 20% or 70 %, 30 not 50 50
    Out of those who don’t have both parents been Jewish a good percentage it is their mom who is Jewish )
    that’s not an official statistic but what my experience is making me believe

    #1700488

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Every chabad house rabbi knows exactly who is Jews and who is not in his Chabad house”

    Why would they accept ANY non-Jews?

    #1700539

    Avi K
    Participant

    Justme,
    1. How high is a “good percentage”?
    2. There is an inyan according to Kabbala to bring back the non-Jewish descendants of Jews who intermarried. I myself have a friend who went to a BT yeshiva, found out that he was doubtfully Jewish (his maternal grandmother “converted” but did not recall going to the mikva). He went through a giur l’chumra and is now fully observant.

    #1700542

    Chatzkel todres
    Participant

    על פי דין בודקין
    עד ארבע אמהות… ולהגיד שרוב יהודים גויים מופרך לגמרי רוב הגיעו מאירופה והזניחו היהדות דפקר טובא כיודעים קצת היסטוריה במדינתינו…
    לצערינו נסחפים גם אינם יהודים במוסדות קירוב למיניהן אם ברמאות או בגלל צורך לב של הרב להעיף אותם משום מה . אך להגיד שרובם כן מופרך לגמרי. וחבל.

    #1700546

    AidelB
    Participant

    I know of someone who had gone through Yeshiva and was a goy. He quickly converted.

    #1700543

    anonymouse1079
    Participant

    I don’t know how it works with Chabad but someone with Aish told me that more often the “Patrick Sullivan”s are Jewish because their mother is Jewish and the non-Jewish sounding part comes from the father, while you have to be careful with the “Matthew Rosenberg”s because their father is Jewish but their mother might not be.

    #1700621

    frumguy33
    Participant

    Haiku, you and anyone that agrees with you is an idiot. How do we know that you aren’t part of the eruv rav?? I think you likely are, because Jews are usually intelligent and you aren’t .

    Firstly your stat that most Jews intermarried is wrong. Most Jews intermarry today, in 2019 that was not the case 100 hundred years ago, or even 50 years ago.

    Secondly you focus on Chabad while ignoring every other outreach group there is .

    Thirdly the answer is quite simple, they ask. Specifically they if your moms mom was Jewish. Considering the fact that in my case , my grandmother was referred to as Bubbie, spoke Yiddish, came from a shtetl in Europe and was elated when I went to yeshiva. I’m pretty sure of my yichoos.

    With younger bts today, I doubt there was a vast uptick in the conversions to judasim during the holocaust.

    Do some research instead of spending all your time in the coffee room spreading lies about klal Yisrael. It’s people like you that caused the golden calf. Shame on you’nnn

    #1700626

    Joseph
    Participant

    A guy might 100% think his mother’s mother is Jewish when, in fact, Halachicly she’s a gentile.

    #1700657

    frumguy33
    Participant

    Joseph your comment is silly. That rationale can apply for anyone regardless of your yichoos. You have to look at why someone thinks that. If you have a guy whose family has lived in an area traditionally devoid of Jews for several generations and he says his grandmother is Jewish, that isn’t the same as someone who traces his lineage to an area full of Jews. You all seem to forget people weren’t looking to convert or pretending to be Jewish 40-50 years ago. My original comment still stands. There are many so called Phrum (phony + frum) Jews today who we will find out are descendants of the eruv rav including likely some of the people who posted on this thread

    #1700696

    Joseph
    Participant

    40-50 years ago we already had very very many fake converts, many children and grandchildren and than great-grandchildren of paternal descent who thought they were Jewish for generations even though they were 100% goyim for generations.

    #1700730

    frumguy33
    Participant

    Joseph no we didn’t. Do you have a scintilla of evidence to support your statement? You sound like the antisemites who claim ashkenazi Jews aren’t real Jews.

    #1700731

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Why is this any different than any Hillel house in a school why is only Chabad the issue here.”
    Well, given that Hillel houses are Conservative/Reform I doubt this is a big concern for them.

    As for why the OP is asking about Chabad vs other kiruv organizations, it could be just because Chabad is the biggest and more well known name in kiruv, it could be that he’s looking to pick on Chabad, or it could be due to their carpet bombing-style kiruv that seeks to involve mass quantities.

    #1700732

    frumguy33
    Participant

    Joseph that is not true . Do you have a scintilla of evidence from a reputable source? Assuming you are correct, why wouldn’t the gedolim speak about this ? Further how are you any different then the antisemites who say all ashkenazi Jews aren’t real Jews, or the black Hebrews who say they are the real Jews. Further if you are so Jewish why are you spending your time in a coffee room online when the gedolim have spoken out about spending such time in such places??

    #1700755

    jdf007
    Participant

    Sorry, I thought I had an issue submitting, and I see I made 3 comments that did get posted out of order. The only one I wish went through was the comment of the Conservatives and Reforms probably not sending their kids to this if they weren’t local.

    But, I find this discussion bizarre, and offensive. Not so much current kids who claim to be ‘half-jewish’, the people who seem to think we’re all intermarried 10 generations ago. So what you are telling me, is that although all of my American ancestors are clearly Jewish, but because they are not the so-called “ultra-Orthodox” that in 1700 or 1600 I have a non-Jewish mother somewhere in Austria-Hungary or in the Ukraine? Goodness, now I have “Jews” (this thread gives us pause to question!), white nationalists, Arabs, and academics questioning my genealogy now! If only I could get some type of affirmative action out of that!

    I have a collection of old books about the history of Jews written by various Academics and Christians, and they all seem to agree with you. To use their language, these books claim that the modern Jews are not related to the original Hebrews at all. Just like this website, they have no proof other than their own snide beliefs. Congratulations.

    Maybe we can debate what’s going on with this new thing (to me) of these mixed parental units, but going back to the old country is a bit much. And with historical precedent sadly, which claims that there are no Jews.

    #1700762

    akuperma
    Participant

    If someone knows the ancestors back to a time when they were frum, yichus isn’t a problem. But for Jews arrived before the Civil War, meaning we are talking about 8-12 generations, it is a serious problem. Intermarriage was very high especially along the “frontier” (Chicago, Denver, Texas, etc.)

    #1700801

    Chossid
    Participant

    If you guys really care about the problem of intermarriage, why don’t you guys go out there and pervert it.
    Instead you spend your time putting down people and saying loshen hara with screwed up facts.
    What will it take to get people’s heads on straight?

    Heimy I think Al pi the Gemorah in the beginning of pesochim, we are going to have to search through your yichus, after speaking very derogatory, not to even mention the loshen hara.

    #1700804

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    The question really should be “what is the alternative”? Your choices are

    1. Don’t make any programs for non-frum Jews so we do not run the risk of engaging goyim in kiruv
    2. Do extensive background checks to ensure everyone in your program is halachicly Jewish.
    3. Have a “liberal” open policy and try to bring in as many Jews as possible. If at some point you realize someone is not halachicly Jewish then you work from there.

    Answer # 1 is the same as giving up on your Jewish brethren
    Answer # 2 is very impractical and will do more harm than good
    Answer # 3 seems like the only way.

    Let’s say there was a cattle car of Jews going to Auschwitz every day and you could save the entire group (with some risk) although not everyone is a halachic Jew, would you do it?

    #1700822

    Haimy
    Participant

    Thank you Chossid for clarifying Chabad’ s protocol. I saw no mention of a screening process on the website to apply. I’m happy to learn that Chabad does screen every participant as you said.
    I chose Chabad because they place tefillin on anyone who says their Jewish without asking about ancestry. I wondered how far they go with being inclusive to anyone who considers themselves a Jew.
    I know that Partners in Torah asks all applicants if they were born to a Jewish mother.
    As this golus continues it’s becoming more & more difficult to know who is a Torah obliged Jew. At some point, we shouldn’t be treating anyone who thinks their Jewish as a ben mitzvah. If we treat them like Jews, we are like encouraging them to go marry another Jew who may truly be Jewish.
    Even if my numbers are off, we are certainly going in that direction rch”l.
    This is a question for all kiruv organizations but especially for Chabad.

    #1700823

    Aish Hatorah? Or Sameach? Gateways? Project Inspire? Most non religious Jews are not halachikly Jewish.

    Why point a finger at Chabad, as if they are the only ones that do kiruv, when the exact question can be directed at ALL the MANY wonderful kiruv organizations both in USA and Internationally!

    If “Most non religious Jews are not halachikly Jewish” then we ALL have a problem with ALL kiruv organizations!!!

    In fact, let’s go a step further:

    Who checks the yichus of each bochur in Lakewood and Ponevitch to make sure his grandparents are true Yidden?! Do the Rosh Yeshivas go back a few generations on the maternal side to make sure this talmid is a Yid? Who does this?!

    What about mamzerim? If the grandparents remarried without a proper get, if there was an agunah that remarried (very common in pre-war days) without a hetter that we all accept, do you realize the michshol in shidduchim??

    There might be 20-60% goyim or mamzerim learning in Bnei Brak! GEVALD!

    #1700863

    votekosher
    Participant

    I am more worried about jihad loving, Dem voting / communists / naturei karta / If Not Now/JVP.

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