@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

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  • #1469628

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “OK but there are also plenty of times where a yachid reveals a chiddush which is a valid path in Avodas Hashem. Shivim panim laTorah”

    Which Gedolim (past or present) are on record endorsing that a Rebbe is mahuto v atzmuto mamish areingishtelt b’guf ? Can you cite a credible example of even one?

    From your posts it is clear to me that you are a sincere person. You know very well that the objection to this chiddush is not only from one Gadol. I’m very surprised you would claim such a thing.

    “Also it seems to me, although I could be wrong, that there is a halachic “due process,” like by the gemara they hashed out their proofs for their opinions, and then voted on the final halacha.”

    There are many examples post chazal where there is closure in halacha and dayos. For example:
    1) Turning on a incandescent light bulb is chillul Shabbos
    2) The Zohar HaKadosh is authentic

    #1469649

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Eli Y

    “I can tell you that our great defender in this thread is far too arrogant to speak for most members or about Chabad philosophy”

    This type of ad hominem attack is completely uncalled for. In this case it is also unfounded. CS has, to the best of her abilities, taken a significant amount of her time to provide comprehensive answers to just about every person who raised a question (even those posed with hostility). In every instance where she has been insulted she has taken the high road, refusing to lower the standards of respectful dialogue. Arrogant?? How so? Please quote a post which you think displays arrogance on her part.

    #1469653

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “OK but there are also plenty of times where a yachid reveals a chiddush which is a valid path in Avodas Hashem. Shivim panim laTorah”

    So why is the Torah of anyone who disagrees with Chabad, or is even not seen to be their biggest fan, e.g. the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, Rav Shach (and let’s not forget the Chofetz Chaim), rejected?

    #1469694

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @np
    “Which Gedolim (past or present) are on record endorsing that a Rebbe is mahuto v atzmuto mamish areingishtelt b’guf ? Can you cite a credible example of even one?”

    Honestly, I never heard of that sicha being viewed as controversial before this thread. I happened to have learned that year of the Rebbe’s sichos many many times so I knew where to find it. On this thread, one person was mentioned as having called that the opposite of avodas Hashem cvs, so thats where I picked that up from. So being honest, as I do try to be, I’m going to make a distinction here between me and you so you know exactly where I stand.

    For me: I know, as all Chabad Chassidim know, that the Rebbe lived his entire life as a Tzaddik Gamur of Tanya, and accomplished incredible things. Every time we learn a sicha of the Rebbe, Kal Vchomer a Maamar, it lights up our neshama and gives us renewed energy to serve Hashem. It sets our sights and goals higher.

    It’s true that an individual can go off, no matter how great they are, but no one goes from being a Tzaddik gomur to an oved…. in a snap, and then back again, unless they are mentally unstable.

    For example, Shabsai Tzvi started off as a bright student and looked like a promising Torah leader. If yoshke lhavdil was the student of R Yehoshua ben Prachia, he did too. (Both of them though were not at the level of a tzaddik gamur as when it came down to it, they showed ego/ crassness. The first by refusing to listen to his teacher, and the second by his crass comment which showed his world view.)

    However, he went on to think he knew better than his teacher. He continued down a spiritually destructive path until it ended very sadly.

    However, The Rebbe lived his entire life desiring nothing but what Hashem wanted. Before he went to cheder he was already picturing how the Geula would look. He never took one action, word and we can assume thought against Hashem. So since he is known to us as such, this controversial statement will remain that, controversial to others, but we accept it as the truth.

    Now it could be for other communities, to say such a thing would lead to the opposite of avodas hashem for them because they don’t understand/ learn achdus Hashem in the light of Tanya. So for them, it can be a statement their Rebbeim feel is assur.

    For example, Satmar is known for their anti Zionist protests as part of their avodas Hashem. For one of their bochrim to engage in it is considered a good thing. But if a BMG Bachor would participate, I would think his Rosh Yeshiva would scold him roundly for the bitul Torah because that’s not his path in avodas Hashem and he’s just wasting time.

    Similarly the Breslov on their Simcha trucks. I dont see a chareidi wide condemnation against it, because we see where its coming from and they focus on simcha. But we probably would scold one of our own bochrim for spending his afternoon on one.

    So what I’m saying is two points:

    1)I’m really not interested in how many people were for it not for it etc. because the Rebbe is known as a tzaddik gamur and never did anything against Hashem, so this must also be truth.

    I’m glad I know now all this information so I can be respectful in other communities to their views, such as with my BY students.

    2) If you want, you can present here a list of Gedolim who said this is explicitly against halacha, and I think you’ll see its the minority. And it’s fine they dont endorse it, you dont find Lakewood gedolim endorsing anti Zionist protests, and we all have a different view with how to approach Zionism, yet we understand that this is a legitimate thing for Satmar to do even if it isn’t for us. Am I making sense?

    From your posts it is clear to me that you are a sincere person. You know very well that the objection to this chiddush is not only from one Gadol. I’m very surprised you would claim such a thing.

    “Also it seems to me, although I could be wrong, that there is a halachic “due process,” like by the gemara they hashed out their proofs for their opinions, and then voted on the final halacha.”

    There are many examples post chazal where there is closure in halacha and dayos. For example:
    1) Turning on a incandescent light bulb is chillul Shabbos
    2) The Zohar HaKadosh is authentic

    Right but that doesn’t address what I wrote.

    fixed-79

    #1469724

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @79 thanks allot!

    @joseph rso
    I think the next big topic to address is HOW Chabad chassidim are mekushar today. This thread was discussing the concept of hiskashrus itself, and its quite long. That can be opened on a separate thread.

    Btw rso I find you quite ironic. First you ask me if I know of anyone else who is a tzadik gamur of Tanya, I respond no and I’d love to know of another, as there is no reason to be unique in that regard. You respond that feivel thinks his Rebbe is one, and then refuse to give his name. Do you get the irony here?

    #1469728

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    BTW the reason why sechel and maybe others doubt im mainstream is because mainstream lubavitchers never bring up these topics. I wouldn’t either as they’re really not the things we focus on. Like I said this whole question of this thread I never knew was controversial before.

    However the Rebbe never evaded questions, even uncomfortable ones. Chassidus demands emess, and I feel if we’re being asked we should answer fully, honestly and truthfully. If a chossid can’t do that, they have to examine why. As everything a chossid does should have a firm foundation.

    #1469732

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    The Rebbe once said, that even within the Lubavitcher Rebbeim, each Rebbe had what they stressed, and based on what the chossid koched in, the Rebbe could tell whose chossid it is.

    Then the Rebbe said that his chassidim koch in three things:

    1)What a Jew is
    2) Mivtzoim
    3) Moshiach

    And that’s what our conversations usually revolve around

    #1469940

    Eli Y
    Participant

    “np: This type of ad hominem attack is completely uncalled for. In this case it is also unfounded. CS has, to the best of her abilities, taken a significant amount of her time to provide comprehensive answers to just about every person who raised a question (even those posed with hostility)”

    np: I repent for this statement–it was an emotional reaction and irrelevant to the argument. Hopefully CS forgives me.

    “RSO: I believe that no one has answered my question as to where opening the igros at random originated and who said that it has any meaning at all. It certainly wasn’t the lubavitcher rebbe, so who had the authority to say that the following the answers/instructions one allegedly receives is correct according to Torah.”

    I consulted with a Chabad Rabbi on this question. Of course he would be far better at explaining than I but this is how I understood it:

    A Jew can choose to operate under the laws of nature or under the laws beyond nature. For example, we all see the parting of the sea as a miracle beyond nature but most do not view the rising of the sun as a miracle since it clothes itself in the laws of nature.

    If the Jew seeks to operate beyond the laws of nature, this is accessible to him/her. Hashem has made it possible to learn of His ways through the Tzaddik. For example, Hashem spoke to Moses, who spoke to Aaron etc. and finally the people learned. One can attempt to learn His ways directly but the answers and the understanding may not be as clear to the seeker as the revelation from the Tzaddik.

    According to my Rabbi, the Rebbe said at a farbregen that he cannot respond to all letters sent to him and that people should consult his letters “since he is answering them at the same time he is answering the original letter writer”. Hence, the followers of the Rebbe consider that amongst the letters he wrote are answers to their current issues.

    I have not consulted the letters myself but I am told from my Rabbi who is trustworthy that he has observed remarkable coincidence between the letter picked at random and the seekers issue. Also, sometimes the letter seems to be irrelevant to the current question.

    In my opinion, when one gains either a clear answer or what appears to be an irrelevant answer they naturally consider the problem with greater mental elaboration. That their decision making is thus enhanced could be a function of metaphysics or could be attributed to natural psychology. Perhaps “faith” comes into play at this point.

    In any case, the consultation of the letters is seen as consultation with the living Rebbe who wrote these letters and at the time was writing to many people who were present or were to come in the future.

    This violates our natural perceptions of time as linear but I believe the conception is consistent with Aristotelian temporal philosophy and as I understood the Rambam in his Guide.

    #1470075

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @eli p
    That’s a very interesting answer. Thanks for sharing.
    I wasn’t offended, just disheartened. So thanks for that.

    #1470087

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Sechel HaYashar,

    What the rebbe wants of me?

    “A Rebbe, in any Chassidus, is a Moreh Derech, someone who instructs you how best to live your life. This is not unique to Lubavitch. I’m sure Litvaks have such a concept too.”

    I do hold that my rav is a moreh derech for me, because he helps me to clarify what Hashem wants from me. My rav is also very dear to me. At the end of the day, however, my focus when working on my life’s goals should be on Hashem exclusively, and the words I use and the songs I teach my children, should reflect that. If my rav heard me or my children singing a song about angst over what he (the rav) wanted from me, he’d be terribly upset and correct me at once. I imagine that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT”L, would have felt the same way.

    #1470091

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    Again one line out of context. You never had a feeling so deep you felt you could only share it with a very close friend?

    Not out of context. This is a song about desiring a spiritual connection, and in that realm there is only one very close friend that we can connect with: Hashem. A rav or rebbe, no matter how holy, serves to help us strengthen that one connection, not to make one in addition to or in the middle of it.

    #1470095

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Btw rso I find you quite ironic. First you ask me if I know of anyone else who is a tzadik gamur of Tanya, I respond no and I’d love to know of another, as there is no reason to be unique in that regard. You respond that feivel thinks his Rebbe is one, and then refuse to give his name. Do you get the irony here?

    Skulener Rebbe probably qualifies.

    #1470106

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Eli Y,

    I have not consulted the letters myself but I am told from my Rabbi who is trustworthy that he has observed remarkable coincidence between the letter picked at random and the seekers issue.

    This is why horoscopes are so popular. People can pull out from them what they desire. It may be an amazing feeling for someone to believe that they are getting miraculous, supernatural responses, but the system Hashem set up for us through His Torah was to go to a living, breathing Torah authority with our shailos. After Moshe Rabbeinu passed away, when the people sought advice, they didn’t pick out random statements that Moshe Rabbeinu made and try to fit them to the question, they went to Yehoshua!

    #1470129

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, sometimes the letter seems to be irrelevant to the current question.

    How does your rabbi explain that?

    #1470128

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “For me: I know, as all Chabad Chassidim know, that the Rebbe lived his entire life as a Tzaddik Gamur of Tanya”

    “However, The Rebbe lived his entire life desiring nothing but what Hashem wanted. Before he went to cheder he was already picturing how the Geula would look. He never took one action, word and we can assume thought against Hashem.”

    How do you know this? Better yet, how can anyone know such a thing? You would need knowledge of all the details of someone else’s life including intent.

    “)I’m really not interested in how many people were for it not for it etc. because the Rebbe is known as a tzaddik gamur and never did anything against Hashem, so this must also be truth.”

    This is incorrect on religious grounds, rational grounds, and practical grounds

    1) Religious grounds. We are bound to follow the consensus of the Hachmai HaDor. You DO have to care how many people are for it or not for it. If a dayah is nidcheh you cannot follow it. And no, you do not need a vote for that to happen as per my 2 examples above. There was no “official vote” regarding incandescent light bulbs or the authenticity of the Zohar. Still, taking a contrary position on those issues is not acceptable.

    2) Rational grounds. When evaluating evidence to determine whether to accept or reject a proposition on a given subject It is not rational for a layperson to maintain a position which is contrary to a consensus of subject matter experts.

    3) Practical grounds. According to your position, there would be no practical way for any community who came to erroneously believe that a certain person was / is a tzadik gamur to be shown that they are in error. We all know that such things do occur, communities large and small do come to such false beliefs.

    #1470149

    Eli Y
    Participant

    AvramMD:
    “This is why horoscopes are so popular. People can pull out from them what they desire. ”

    I fully agree with your skepticism. I offered my Rabbi’s observation as an empirical statement but I have no objective proof regarding the alignment between the letter and the persons issue.

    DY: Also, sometimes the letter seems to be irrelevant to the current question.

    “How does your rabbi explain that?”

    In our discussion he implied that the answer was there except it was beyond the ability of the seeker to understand it. I purposely did not include this aspect in my original post since it does little to move the argument forward.

    Similarly, arguing that a person turned to a specific page due to a splinter in the finger that would not have been turned to had the finger not had a splinter gets us nowhere.

    As my Rabbi explained, these phenomenon need to be understood by rules beyond nature if in fact there is a metaphysical reality to the practice.

    Now let me ask the non-Chabad folks a question if I may: What does one achieve by saying Kaddish? (Beyond tradition and commandment)

    #1470185

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Eli Y,

    “Now let me ask the non-Chabad folks a question if I may: What does one achieve by saying Kaddish?”

    Kaddish is a public sanctification of Hashem, and by saying it, one prompts a minyan of Jews to publicly sanctify Hashem in response (y’hei sh’mei raba…). This is an extremely holy and meritorious act. To do so in the context of mourning is extremely powerful, because the mourner declares the greatness of Hashem even through his pain. Since this tremendous mitzva was done for the sake of the deceased, the merits are also added to the merits of the deceased.

    #1470236

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @non political
    As for your other well articulated points, you are correct.

    Again the remarks were made in 1950. I’m not aware of any such gathering of rabbis that said these remarks were cvs against halacha. And I am aware of many Rabbonims high regard for the Rebbe. I also am not a Rav myself, I know very little, and I think my Rabbonim would best know what situations are halachically binding etc

    #1470275

    Eli Y
    Participant

    Avram: “Since this tremendous mitzva was done for the sake of the deceased, the merits are also added to the merits of the deceased.”

    Wow–thank you for this amazing response Avram–I am sure it will increase the quality of my davening and I am ever grateful for this.

    As a follow-up: What benefit accrues to the deceased by gaining more merit?

    Also, do folks in your shul say Kaddish for precisely 11 months?

    #1470233

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @non political
    “How do you know this? Better yet, how can anyone know such a thing? You would need knowledge of all the details of someone else’s life including intent.”

    A persons personality is driven by what gives them pleasure. They then desire that which gives them pleasure. They then use their sechel to think about what they want and really understand it. This results in emotions- love or fear etc of whatever the item is. Finally the emotions make the person develop a plan of action to achieve what they want.

    The soul / personality is the sechel and middos.

    A person reveals who they are through the three expressions of the soul: thought speech and action.

    Thought is closest to the soul. It then gets expressed though speech and or action.

    A beinoni struggles with the yetzer hara but never does an aveira. Still, this struggle is apparent and expresses itself through the garments of the soul.

    A tzadik sheeino gamur doesn’t struggle anymore with thought speech and action. Their yetzer hara is permanently drugged. They struggle with feeling – how much they can tolerate bad. A tzadik gamur has transformed his yetzer hara (or more correctly his nefesh habehamis) into another nefesh haElokis, so he doesn’t tolerate any bad at all as his love for Hashem is complete.

    The Rebbe never exhibited any signs of struggle with the bad. What did he cry about? That the shechina is still in gadlus, that Jewish children don’t know Alef beis. What made him happy? Activities furthering Torah and mitzvos.

    Besides there’s a whole mystical side of a Rebbe that can be sensed but I can’t put it into words as I am kind of clueless in that area. But people that met the Rebbe will share of that. There’s tons of personal recollections on jem.

    #1470294

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @cs, Eli Y, DaasYochid,

    Re, “asking Igros” I had a post about it on a previous thread, if someone can find it, thanks. In any case, many Lubavitchers are vehemently against it, and it has no source in anything the Rebbe said, and aderabe.

    #1470436

    RSo
    Participant

    CS, I don’t want to insult you as you seem a very earnest person, but from all your posts about the greatness of your Rebbe and the mystical sense that could be felt, coupled with the fact that you were born after he passed away, I have come to the conclusion that you were educated in a way where lofty concepts that were above your intellectual age at the time were “explained” to you, you accepted them without understanding them but you thought you understood them, and that now you are repeating them here and elsewhere without realizing what they mean and what you are saying.

    I think that it is not without reason that the rest of the world does not believe in the system of education where chassidus is taught to people too young to understand things on an abstract level. It is the same reason that they prohibited kabboloh being learnt by people under 40. The young mind can’t comprehend that these are concepts that are not gashmius. The result, in your case, is people feeling the spirituality of the lubavitcher rebbe, “knowing” he was a tzadik gamur of Tanya, and saying that there is nothing wrong with a human of flesh and blood being atzmus melubash.

    You may not see the connection that I have made, but I do.

    #1470426

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “Btw rso I find you quite ironic. First you ask me if I know of anyone else who is a tzadik gamur of Tanya, I respond no and I’d love to know of another, as there is no reason to be unique in that regard. You respond that feivel thinks his Rebbe is one, and then refuse to give his name. Do you get the irony here?”

    I don’t recall asking you if you know of anyone else who is a tzaddik gamur, and if I did I certainly didn’t mean that I’d like your personal opinion on that matter. Can you show me where I asked it so that I can see what I meant by the question?

    #1470431

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “1)I’m really not interested in how many people were for it not for it etc. because the Rebbe is known as a tzaddik gamur and never did anything against Hashem, so this must also be truth.”

    This is what so many of us have been complaining about. Circular reasoning. “He said something, he must be right because he’s a tzadik gamur.”

    But if it isn’t right, in this case it’s not just wrong it’s (close to) kefirah c”v, and then he isn’t a tzadik gamur.

    So you can’t prove it right by saying that he said it. Lehavdil infinite havdolos (NO! I’m not comparing!) we could say that same thing about someone who claimed he was the son of … c”v. He said it and he must be right because he’s the son of … c”v.

    #1470432

    RSo
    Participant

    Eli Y wrote: “According to my Rabbi, the Rebbe said at a farbregen that he cannot respond to all letters sent to him and that people should consult his letters “since he is answering them at the same time he is answering the original letter writer”. Hence, the followers of the Rebbe consider that amongst the letters he wrote are answers to their current issues.”

    I can accept someone searching for the lubavitcher rebbe’s view on a question/topic, but that is nothing like writing a question, putting it in a page at random in the igros, and then getting the answer from that page.

    #1470433

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “Re, “asking Igros” I had a post about it on a previous thread, if someone can find it, thanks. In any case, many Lubavitchers are vehemently against it”

    Now that is VERY interesting! I have been around Lubavitchers in business and at chabad houses for a long time and I have never heard even one of them speak against it. Could you perhaps give me some names of prominent chassidim who have opposed it vehemently?

    #1470605

    Eli Y
    Participant

    RSo: “Could you perhaps give me some names of prominent chassidim who have opposed it vehemently?”

    I’ll bet you a cream cheese bagel w/lox that this info cannot be provided as long as we define a “prominent Lubavitcher” as one who davens at 770 and visits the Ohel.

    RSo: “I can accept someone searching for the lubavitcher rebbe’s view on a question/topic, but that is nothing like writing a question, putting it in a page at random in the igros, and then getting the answer from that page”.

    The quality of the letters we are speaking of are in regard to questions such as “should I move to FL to open a pre-school or should I remain in NY as a civil service lawyer”. The Rebbe could answer two similar letters in entirely different ways.

    I’m not sure we agree on some very basic foundational principles so I ask you:

    1. Do you agree that a Tzaddik can operate in ways beyond what we perceive as natural laws?

    2. Do you agree that the Rebbe was a Tzaddik?

    #1470804

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1470836

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Rso its not circular reasoning, just one point out of many. Truth is there should be nothing left controversial as all questions have been answered with various sources, and no counter sources have been brought that have not been addressed.

    I’ll be happy to summarise all questions and answers in one post although it’ll take longer than a few minutes, which is hard for me to spare, so I’ll be glad if it’s not necessary or someone else offers.

    #1470838

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @avrammd
    I think we both are saying what a Rebbe is or isn’t. For some reason you are misunderstanding me. I hope to clarify for the last time iyh what the role of a Rebbe is. This would apply to all chassidim/ talmidim of tzaddikim by definition of Tanya.

    #1470839

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Moshes rabbeinu, the first Rebbe, said, I stand between tog and Hashem… And so does every Rebbe. This is how:

    1) makes my connection to Hashem stronger:
    A) by the Torah he teaches
    B) by showing a dugma chaya of living an existence which has no other desires other than what Hashem wants. This is our potential, revealed, and that inspires us to reach that in our own level.

    For example, when I see the Rebbe cry over Hashem and his children still remaining in golus, that inspires me to care, and to devote my life to getting us out of golus.

    Another example: it can sound like personality suicide to give up everything you want and have no other life then what Hashem wants. By seeing the Rebbe’s living example, u see that such an existence is really who I am, abs far from being a depressing existence, it is the best thing I could ever do for myself. The more I get in touch with the real me, my neshama, the less limited I am by the normal limitations of the world.

    Hashem to me:
    1) every generation and individual has a specific mission. A tzadik can tell you what Hashem wants you to devote your life to. Which areas you should use your talents. Where your are meant to live etc. Personal guidance from Hashem via the tzadik.

    2) a tzadik can bring down brachos from Hashem and tell me where I need to improve in general, and also to make the brachos happen in reality.

    Hope this helps.

    I do not want to take any other topics in this thread as once a thread gets so long, it is easy to misconstrue things that are said due to missing information and or context spread out over the thread

    #1470851

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    By seeing the Rebbe’s living example

    You may have missed the news, but Lubavich does not have a living rebbe.

    #1470930

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    To support the proposition that the Rebbe was a Tzadik Gamur who was completely batul to the Will of Hashem you wrote:

    “The Rebbe never exhibited any signs of struggle with the bad. What did he cry about? That the shechina is still in gadlus, that Jewish children don’t know Alef beis. What made him happy? Activities furthering Torah and mitzvos.

    Besides there’s a whole mystical side of a Rebbe that can be sensed but I can’t put it into words as I am kind of clueless in that area. But people that met the Rebbe will share of that.”

    Are you proposing the above as sufficient positive evidence to substantiate your proposition? Or is it merely sufficient for one who is already a Chabbad Chassid (such as yourself), whereis a non Chabbad Chassid (such as me) should accept the proposition based on a leap of faith?

    #1470952

    RSo
    Participant

    Eli Y: “I’m not sure we agree on some very basic foundational principles so I ask you:

    1. Do you agree that a Tzaddik can operate in ways beyond what we perceive as natural laws?

    2. Do you agree that the Rebbe was a Tzaddik?”

    I take it you are asking me, so my answers are:

    1. Yes, but this is totally irrelevant to the question of the validity of the Igros (which is what you were discussing) as who decided that it is the rebbe who is giving you the reply when you put a piece of paper with your request into the igros?

    2. I would have liked to have answered yes but after reading some of the stuff quoted here in his name I’m no longer sure.

    #1471157

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Are you proposing the above as sufficient positive evidence to substantiate your proposition? Or is it merely sufficient for one who is already a Chabbad Chassid (such as yourself), whereis a non Chabbad Chassid (such as me) should accept the proposition based on a leap of faith?”

    Look, technically I should tell you that by looking at the Rebbe’s neshama, you can see who he is etc. The problem is that we are not holding at that level. Tzadikim can see who is holding where, and who is a Neshama of Atzilus here in this world, but I havent reached that point, and assuming that neither have you.

    So the best evidence we have of who a tzaddik is, is from what we can discern, speech and action (body language as well), also where his interests lie etc.

    The neshama can sense when someone is completely batul to Hashem and you can get a glimpse through stories of people’s encounters. Also learning the tzaddiks Torah can reveal allot. Both of these are available. There is a great book called My Story, that came out last year, about people’s encounters with the Rebbe. Its available to be bought and read.

    By me, simply learning the Rebbe’s Torah shows who the Rebbe is. The miracle stories and open ruach hakodesh just add atop of that.

    #1471171

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What makes you think you are qualified to determine who he was by reading his writings?

    #1471204

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Woah!! I’m guessing you will rescind this somehow but you are actually claiming that you are declaring someone a tazaddik GAMUR and KNOW they have completely conquered their yetzer hora (not something any human can possibly know about another) based on having heard stories and listened to their speeches?!?! There are endless stories about such miraculous interventions by many many rebbes. You can’t possibly be saying those criteria are adequate for that declaration!! And if you are…I pray you speak for only yourself and not for the Chabadniks anywhere.

    #1471269

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Now for my final post on this thread iyh. Heres a summary:

    The Rebbe took two FACTS and made a chiddush by putting one as a reason for the other.

    Fact one: Hashem reveals Himself to the world through Tzaddikim. “Atzmus Umehus areingeshtelt in guf.”
    Some mekoros of this idea:
    1) The Rebbe’s five: R Yitzchak called Hevaya bheichal kodsho, a malach called by Hashem’s Name while doing His shlichus, Moshe rabbeinu using Hashem’s pronuon by Vnosati Esev, Rashbi’s face being likened to The Face of Hashem
    2) Nefesh Hachayim 1:4 hagoh- same words pretty much verbatim
    3)Medrash tehillim 90:1
    4)
    כי רועה ישראל חשוב כאלוקים ממש כי יושב על כסא ”
    השם בארץ … והיינו כיון שהגון חשוב כאלוקות

    ההשפעה הבאה מרוח קדשו של צדיק הדור אשר השכינה שורה בתוכו וממנו יומשך קדושה ”
    “לכל דורו והוא מעונו של הקב”ה ששוכן בקרבו

    Both of these quotes are from the Heilige Chasam Sofer (al Hatorah). The first is from Parshas Matos on the Posuk VaYimosru MeAlfei Yisroel the second is from Parshas Ki Tovo on the Posuk Hashkifah MiMeon Kodshecha. (Whis as he says there refers to the Tzadik Hador who is the Maon Kodhso of HKB”H)

    Fact two: We can go to Tzaddikim with requests for brachos, although to ask the sun for brachos would be AZ.
    Sources:
    1) שות מנחת אלעזר סימן סח
    2) Tzaddikim being alive after their passing- NEFESH HACHAIM 4:21, also Tanya Iggros Kodesh
    3)Tshuvos Mahram Shick, Orach Chayim, 293

    So the Rebbe just said the REASON why its ok to go to a Rebbe for brachos is BECAUSE we, Hashem and the Torah are all one, and Hashem is revelaed through the Rebbe.

    Now I wanted to know why people would never question the Nefesh Hachaim for saying the EXACT same thing as what theyre all upset about, but feel the Rebbe they can question if he is a gadol. I said this makes no sense because:
    1) He made this statement before he became Rebbe AND never retracted it (just remember the NH said the same thing, and lots of other sources, no need why he should retract it.)
    2) Spent the rest of his life as a complete tzaddik
    3) Was accepted as such by the majority of gedolim, (and I wont address the minority because I don’t want to go there, and anyway unless you say you specifically follow those one or two on every issue in your life (which i am almost sure you don’t, and choosing them davka here to hate on chabad is exactly that, sinas chinam.)

    So who is anyone else to say that its “problematic”?

    Other sources on the importance of connecting to a tzaddik and how hashem’s hashpoah comes through the tzaddik:
    Sefer Hamitzvos 7 (connecting)
    Tanya Perek Beis (hashpoah through)
    darshos haRan 8 (and even after passing)
    Noam Elimelech https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chabad-shluchah-please-explain-why-davening-to-betten-a-rebbe-is-okay/page/7/#post-1466838

    NO ONE DAVENS to the Rebbe, just asks for brachos to be brought down from what Hashem has alloted.

    To understand more, there’s a need to learn the concept that NOTHING is a separate entity from Hashem (that would otherwise be the opposite of achdus Hashem cvs), it can only look that way, and our job is to REVEAL how everything is one with Hashem. by a tzaddik this is revealed. (See Shaar Hayichud vHoemuna which is Tanya section two for more on this)

    AZ is something that thinks its a separate existence or power from Hashem, and serving it, is treating something like something separate and having power other than Hashem.

    Sources outside of the Rebbe about looking at the image of a tzaddik to arouse Yiras Shomayim:
    1)Kav Hayashar (16th century)

    Concept of mimutza hamechaber vs hamafsik and the need for tzaddikim through which we connect to Hashem

    @chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

    Anyhow there’s many many more sources I am sure, because chassidus never makes things up, just emphasizes the ideas, brings them out of hiding, and elaborates. If you want to ask something else, feel free on another thread. Just do me a favor and stick to one question at a time. Otherwise, its impossible to address properly.

    On why we obssess over our Rebbe and how the Rebbe helps me serve Hashem better:

    @chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

    @chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

    As requested:
    Rebyid 23: why not Moshe Rabbeinu himself
    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chabad-shluchah-please-explain-why-davening-to-betten-a-rebbe-is-okay/page/3/#post-1462840 #1

    Rso: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chabad-shluchah-please-explain-why-davening-to-betten-a-rebbe-is-okay/page/7/#post-1467089

    #1471286

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Once again, you have failed to answer why the Rebbe would need to answer how it’s okay to ask a Rebbe for brachos (and no, he wasn’t merely explaining the reason it works).

    You also again fail to explain how Hashem being revealed through a tzaddik (all the sources which you brought say nothing more) is “atzmus umehus araingshtelt in a guf” which connotes much more.

    Also, we are no longer in the Rebbe’s generation. Chabad’s failure to choose a new leader is just that – a failure – and doesn’t force the Ribon Shel Olam to keep the Rebbe alive (and again, the fact that there are sources to refer to a tzaddik who was niftar as alive in some sense does not begin to explain the way you treat the Rebbe.

    #1471288

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    SHY, Re, “asking Igros” I had a post about it on a previous thread, if someone can find it, thanks. In any case, many Lubavitchers are vehemently against it, and it has no source in anything the Rebbe said, and aderabe.

    I believe it’s the post CS just linked to.

    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chabad-shluchah-please-explain-why-davening-to-betten-a-rebbe-is-okay/page/3/#post-1462840

    #1471591

    Kovna
    Participant

    this is the problem of people being taught these matter when they are deeper than we think. this could be the reason why they were against chasidim then and now .these inyanim were not revealed by chasidim they were around beforehand yet they were careful with them because god and his torah is very serious its our lives.please dont start qouting nefesh hachaim because there are numerous things mentioned in this chat that he is specifically worried about .

    #1471597

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    CS – I have definitely concluded that you are not deliberately avoiding questions, but that you are not able to acknowledge them. Since bringing clear and plain examples of the circular reasoning isn’t working, I will try to give an illustrative example instead of what we are hearing you say. This is only an illustration of the way the above conversations seem to be going.

    question to you: Why do you only eat fruit on tuesday?

    response: The dietician spoke for an hour about the importance of eating fruits and vegetables. Im sorry if you are not able to understand her lecture. It was very clear that fruits and vegetables are important for our health and therefore we need to eat them every tuesday. If there was a part of her lecture you did not understand, please ask.

    question: I asked why only on tuesday? I did not question the importance of fruit.

    response: I don’t know how to make it any clearer. Every doctor will tell you how many vitamins are in fruit and what benefits they have to your body. Even small children know how important eating fruit is to our diet. Your questioning our tuesday fruit eating must be because you are used to eating junk food.

    question: I am not attacking your custom, I am trying to understand why you link the fruit eating with Tuesday, we understood the importance of fruit but there was no mention of eating it on Tuesday.

    response: If you really want to know more about the health benefits of fruit, please go to a dietician and speak to her. If this hasn’t explained the importance, I don’t know how else it can be explained.

    It isn’t the concept of a Rebbe that confuses us, nor turning to a rebbe for brachos, nor davening at their kever, nor the concept of a tsaddik or a tsaddik gamur. those are all known and accepted concepts. it is your proofs and sources that are lacking, and that concept seems beyond your reach.

    #1471619

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Syag,
    “I am trying to understand why you link the fruit eating with Tuesday, we understood the importance of fruit but there was no mention of eating it on Tuesday.”

    What part of CS’ philosophy is equal to the Tuesday in your analogy?

    @all,

    It seems to me, that as soon as one issue is refuted, you find a second. When that’s refuted, you find a third, and so on and so forth. In my humble opinion, there’s something deeper to this, not just your concerns that I worship Avodah Zara. (Yes, I have a buddah in my bedroom. All Lubavitchers worship idols.) There’s something else that just bothers you about Lubavitch and our Rebbe zy”a. I’m not 100% sure what it is, but I have my suspicions that’s jealousy is at least a small factor. While we’re on the subject, I’d like to share some “facts” about Lubavitch that I’ve heard from non Lubavitchers over the years.

    “Chabad Bochurim are given a car and drive around doing “shlichus” all day”. This is one of the popular ones, while in reality, we actually sit and learn in Yeshiva all day, just like everyone else.

    “Chabad Yeshivas learn only Tanya” another popular one, but of course, we learn Gemara like all other Yeshivos (Bava Kama this year) while learning Chassidus as well, for a smaller part of the day. Also, Chassidus isn’t limited to Tanya.

    There are many more such nonsensical ideas you have about us which aren’t founded in reality.

    Now for some jokes about “Misnagdim”:
    (After all the hate we’ve gotten here, I’m entitled…)

    How does a misnaged know that Hashem exists? Well, the Rambam paskens that there’s a Motzui Rishon, and the Raved and Nosei Kelim don’t argue…

    A misnaged turns to his friend and shares a horrible dream he has, “I dreamed that Hashem was dead” says the misnaged, “Nu”, says his friend, “you dream about what you think during the day”, and the misnaged replies, “impossible – I haven’t thought of Hashem in years!”.

    Before you freak out, “see, the always think they’re better!” these jokes were told about the long extinct misnagdim of yesteryear.

    I have to say, that I’ve spent time in Lakewood, (the town, not the Yeshivos) and I haven’t seen these attitudes expressed there, I’ve only encountered friendly welcoming people. I begin to wonder if theses negative people only exist on the internet…

    I think a model Litvak, who’s went to the finest Litvishe Yeshivos, and is an accomplished Talmid Chochom, is Reb Dovid Lichtenstein, of the “Halachic Headlines” show. I’m sure he knows Hilchos Avodah Zara, and he knows very well what Chabad Hashkofos are, yet he holds us in high regard, as I hold your communities and Yeshivos. We can have disagreements – אין דעותיהם שוות, but we can still be friends – חברים כל ישראל. In davening we ask, ברכינו אבינו, when does that come? When we are כולנו כאחד. Achdus isn’t accomplished through פירוד הלבבות. Achdus is when we recognize that we are ערבים זה בזה, for הלא אב אחד לכולנו.

    As Shlomo Hamelech said, כמים הפנים לפנים כן לב האדם לאדם. You feel that we hate because you hate us. We feel you hate us because we hate you. It’s a vicious cycle, which, we can snap right out of, if we only wanted to. We need to realize that just because we don’t understand someone else’s Derech, that doesn’t make it wrong. It should be enough that Gedolei Yisroel throughout the years held the Rebbe and Lubavitch in high regard, if you aren’t able to do your own proper unbiased research into our legitimacy.

    I think I’m going to stop responding here and now, as whatever I will say will just be used as fodder to fuel new and creative hatred.

    With hope that we can live alongside each other in mutual respect and love עד ביאת גואל צדק בב”א.

    #1471625

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    SY – how truly sad and unfortunate. No matter what goes on you just can’t stop talking about the hate that you want to believe is seeping thru here. No, we don’t keep going on to different things when one issue is refuted because the issue has not been refuted. The bottom line issues were not addressed appropriately. Yes, CS addressed them by saying “because”. But there were no answers given that actually resolved the halachik and hashkofik problems that were presented. You want to call that hate instead of addressing it, feel free. But that is not fair. You weren’t being hated. People had legitimate concerns and the answers did NOT satisfy their halachik and legitimate questions so they continue having questions and you keep calling it hate. So is it hate that stops you from leaving chabad? No, it is your learning, belief and upbringing. Are we entitled to a learning belief and upbringing? Appearantly not in your eyes. Everything is just hate. And jealousy.

    So too bad, because aside from your impulsive emotional outbursts you were one of the only ones who was able to offer some learned and sane perspectives of your life and lifestyle. There was much to be learned from you about things we didn’t know. But if you can’t do it without all the sarcasm and name calling and mud slinging that you imagine to be thrown your way, and accusations of hate ad nauseam, it makes the conversation quite stilted. So the final tactic is to slam the door in a huff. Both of you together. And as you leave with your accusations of hatred, you hope that we somehow can live side by side. hmmm, through that closed door it may be hard to ever find out the answer to that, won’t it.

    #1471633

    whattosay
    Participant

    @sy
    I believe you are correct that there is an element of “anti-chabad”. If I may, I’d like to explain why this element exists.
    I am not chabad, but I have been connected to chabad and have chabad family and friends.
    One thing that upsets people, is the feeling of “primacy” of chabad. You will hear people(mostly baalabatim) saying things like “everyone is chabad, they just don’t know it yet”, and “everyone wants to be chabad and are jealous of us”. Obviously, this upsets people out of chabad, making us feel like our drachim are being put down and rejected our of hand. And yes, this does exist by many other groups. However, when this combines with the other issues (that I hope to lay out) it gives people an automatic negative association of chabad.
    The Moshiach thing is obviously another issue. Most non-chabad will believe that thinking the Rebbe ztz’l is Moshiach is at best stupid, and at worst kfira. Leading many people to suspect the average member of chabad of being a kofer(obviously, that is wrong.)
    Another problem is the rabid members. The tzfatim, the lunatics who eat on fasts. While these are a minority of a minority, they get a lot of airtime and attention. And yes, almost every groups has it’s madmen, but the chabad madmen are twisting legitimate chabad philosophy into actual kfira(I once was told by an earnest flag-pin wearing tzfasnik, that as soon as we show the Rebbe we want it he will send Moshiach.)
    And the final, and hardest to pin down point. At many of the tfillin donning stations, there are signs saying things like “the Rebbe said to put on tfillin”. Leading many of us to wonder -didn’t God say to put on tfillin? Isn’t that why we do it?
    Now, everyone is mechanics in such a way, we tell children if they make a brocha their parents will be proud, when we should Ben focusing on God’s pride. But with Chabad, there isn’t already a vocal group that focuses more on the Rebbe than on God. This adds to the suspicion that all chabad thinks about is the Rebbe.

    It isn’t a combination of these points(I believe) that leads people to automatically distrust Chabad with regards to religious matter. Add to that our different drochim, Andy people come across as hating you.

    I hope this has at least helped to clear up for you the background from which many of the people attacking your theology are coming from.

    #1471632

    whattosay
    Participant

    @sy
    I believe you are correct that there is an element of “anti-chabad”. If I may, I’d like to explain why this element exists.
    I am not chabad, but I have been connected to chabad and have chabad family and friends.
    One thing that upsets people, is the feeling of “primacy” of chabad. You will hear people(mostly baalabatim) saying things like “everyone is chabad, they just don’t know it yet”, and “everyone wants to be chabad and are jealous of us”. Obviously, this upsets people out of chabad, making us feel like our drachim are being put down and rejected our of hand. And yes, this does exist by many other groups. However, when this combines with the other issues (that I hope to lay out) it gives people an automatic negative association of chabad.
    The Moshiach thing is obviously another issue. Most non-chabad will believe that thinking the Rebbe ztz’l is Moshiach is at best stupid, and at worst kfira. Leading many people to suspect the average member of chabad of being a kofer(obviously, that is wrong.)
    Another problem is the rabid members. The tzfatim, the lunatics who eat on fasts. While these are a minority of a minority, they get a lot of airtime and attention. And yes, almost every groups has it’s madmen, but the chabad madmen are twisting legitimate chabad philosophy into actual kfira(I once was told by an earnest flag-pin wearing tzfasnik, that as soon as we show the Rebbe we want it he will send Moshiach.)
    And the final, and hardest to pin down point. At many of the tfillin donning stations, there are signs saying things like “the Rebbe said to put on tfillin”. Leading many of us to wonder -didn’t God say to put on tfillin? Isn’t that why we do it?
    Now, everyone is mechanics in such a way, we tell children if they make a brocha their parents will be proud, when we should Ben focusing on God’s pride. But with Chabad, there isn’t already a vocal group that focuses more on the Rebbe than on God. This adds to the suspicion that all chabad thinks about is the Rebbe.

    It isn’t a combination of these points(I believe) that leads people to automatically distrust Chabad with regards to religious matter. Add to that our different drochim, Andy people come across as hating you.

    I hope this hasn’t at least helped to clear up for you the background from which many of the people attacking your theology are coming from.

    #1471837

    Toi
    Participant

    No one that has a legitimate derech/mesorah is jealous of Chabad.

    Trust me.

    It’s more of an “emperor’s new clothes” pity. Chabad thinks they’re running around like kings, and the rest of us see them in a very different light. The real questions weren’t answered, the real problems not even acknowledged, and nothing came of this. The circular reasoning exhibited was nothing short of astounding, and the lack of clarity on the part of certain members nothing less than apparent. No matter how many times DY and syag tried to explain where the questions were, they were either ignored or not understood in the slightest. I’m not sure why you guys are still trying.

    #1471895

    Bubbyo
    Participant

    A little while ago Eli Y asked two questions. I was waiting for one of the more learned members of this thread to answer but I don’t think that they were addressed. They were good questions that deserve an explanation. My reply reflects my Bais Yaakov background, there are probably other responses as well.

    As a follow-up: What benefit accrues to the deceased by gaining more merit?
    Also, do folks in your shul say Kaddish for precisely 11 months?

    The benefit to the deceased is this: The honor of Hashem is increased with every kaddish, as explained. Because the deceased is the catalyst for this increased cognizance and appreciation of Hashem in the physical world of action, (where they can no longer achieve any accomplishments on their own,) he/she, in the world of truth, will delight in this added bit of awareness that resulted from their life. I used the term “bit of awareness”, but in the World of Truth it’s not considered small at all. If, the deceased is still in the throes of punishment up there (generally understood mainly as excruciating mortification), because the kaddish has now added additional meaning to the life that he/she lived, this will elevate the soul and thus alleviate some of the pain. The same goes for Yizkor and anything else good that someone does leiloi nishmas someone who has passed away.
    There is also the concept that every Jewish soul on this earth, by virtue of being a “son” of Hashem (“Bni bechori Yisroel”), increases the honor of Hashem in this world. So, a loss of a Jewish soul, is also a loss to the honor of G-d. The recital of kaddish helps to restore the equilibrium down here as well.

    To my knowledge, kaddish is recited for 11 months following the loss of a parent in all congregations.

    #1471928

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Chabadshluchah- would you agree that it’s certainly far better to be connected to a living breathing rebbe? If so, why not seek one out? There are many tzaddikim in today’s generation; I gave the example of Skullener Rebbe earlier.

    #1471961

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Kovno

    “please dont start qouting nefesh hachaim because there are numerous things mentioned in this chat that he is specifically worried about .”

    +1

    To quote the Nefish HaChaim in support of “a Rebbe is atzmuso umchuso areingishtelt bguf” is an obscene distortion.

    1) In the perek being quoted the Nefish HaChaim compares Yiddin / Tzadikim to the Beis HaMikdash. The dwelling place for Hashems presence. Nobody says that the Beis Hamikdash is “atzmuso u mahuto”.

    2) The Nefish HaChaim is very clear that we do not even speak of “atzmuso u mahuto” when speaking about Hashem. All that has ever been taught is regarding how Hashem relates to us and the Midos that he created to relate to us. The Nefish HaChaim teaches that this is true even regarding the Shem HaMiyuchad.

    3) The Nefish HaChaim states in no uncertain terms that we are forbidden to relate to the world as everything being Elakus (pantheism). To do so would leave no room for the Torah and Mitvos which are premised on our relating to the world as we are designed to experience and understand it.

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