@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay
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- This topic has 518 replies, 47 voices, and was last updated 10 months, 1 week ago by n0mesorah.
February 5, 2018 8:01 am at 8:01 am #1462401
SY – for example – the line “All yidden are one neshama split between many bodies. The “brain” of the neshama, is the Rebbe.” steps out of the boundaries of anything most of us would consider a Torah thought. If we say so, is that an attack? are we allowed to defend Torah as well? if we don’t like it are we out for blood?
no need to respond, i don’t want to make a side conversation. I just think that you seem highly unaware of how you are coming across because of your expectations.February 5, 2018 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1462427
So as far far as the question of how one can daven to the Rebbe, I see two very different answers here. Aww is saying it’s assur, but that’s not what Chabad people are doing. CS is saying they do daven to the Rebbe, but it’s muttar because we’re all one.
Did I get that right?
Also, if you think it’s muttar to daven to the Rebbe because we’re all one, do you also think we are allowed to daven to each other?February 5, 2018 9:46 am at 9:46 am #1462444BubbyoParticipant
@Chabad shlucha: “Which spells out why asking Moshe rabbeinu for things in the midbar was fine whereas doing the same with the eigel was avoda zara.”
Moshe Rabbeinu did not consider it “fine” when the Yidden in the midbar asked him for things!
ז ובקר וראיתם את־כבוד ד’ בשמעו את־תלנתיכם על־ד’ ונחנו מה כי תלינוּ עלינו:
ח ויאמר משה בתת ד’ לכם בערב בשר לאכל ולחם בבקר לשבע בשמע ד’ את־תלנתיכם אשר־אתם מלינם עליו ונחנו מה לא־עלֵינו תלנתיכם כי על־ד’:
I have more derech eretz for your Rebbe ztz”l, than to think that he would compare himself to the RBS”O or even to Moshe Rabbeinu, c”v. Please go back to your teachers and ask them to start with the very basics before jumping to Toras haNistar. That trajectory has messed up many people in much greater generations than ours.February 5, 2018 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1462584
“I have more derech eretz for your Rebbe ztz”l, than to think that he would compare himself to the RBS”O or even to Moshe Rabbeinu, c”v. ”
You are missing the point. Every yid has the potential to live a life that shows that he is one with Hashem, and not a separate being with separate interests.
A tzadik (who has permanently conquered his yetzer hara) lives this reality all the time , which is our deepest potential revealed.
So he’s not comparing himself to Hashem as that would be ego / avoda zara. Rather he has reached the level where he has no more personal selfish interests other than what Hashem wants. And that is the deepest real us. We all live that reality sometimes but a tzadik lives it all the time. Basically his “self” is gone… Do you get it?
It might be hard to understand, but when you observe a tzadik in action you experience the concept so it’s crystal clear.
Just for example, if the Rebbe asks me to teach Jewish children in Timbuktu, I’d be stupid not to, because it’s not serving his personal interests – he doesn’t even have any. Rather, he is Hashem’s messenger telling me what my lifes mission is. A personal message from Hashem – relayed to me via his Roeh Neeman. And if that’s what I’m meant to do, that means this is what I was created for and given my set of talents for. And if course, fulfilling my mission will help me live life to the fullest.
Guess I should mention by the way that a Rebbe only gets his unique spiritual capabilities because of the regular Jew like you and I. As we saw by the first Rebbe, Moshe rabbeinu, when bnei Yisrael sinned, he was expelled from heaven because he was only asked there for their sake.
And during the 40 wandering years, Hashem didn’t talk to him for years and years although he never sinned with the Miraglim because he only has his position because of us.February 5, 2018 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1462569hmlParticipant
I haven’t read any comments, because my blood pressure needs more monitoring, according to my cardiologist. So I am just answering the TITLE of the thread.
Disclaimer…. I am far from a Moshichist – let that be very clear. No flags, pins, signs etc & Yechi is not permitted in our or any of our children’s homes.
So here’s the thing. Chabadnikim do not daven TO the Rebbe: we daven to G-d. What we do is visit the Ohel, write to the Ohel if we are overseas & the PAN is taken to the Ohel (the wonders of modern technology being used in the right way!) to ask the Rebbe to intercede on our behalf.
We personally have seen how, after literally years of asking for a bracha to move to Eretz Yisrael, after I went to the Ohel & asked for a siman that moving to EY would be good… 2 weeks later, my husband was offered a job here.
I try to go to the Ohel as soon as I get off the plane & again right before I leave. But this is what bothers me. I’m sure there are many comments above that are offensive and scathing, so I ask you…why do people flock to kivrei Tzaddikim? Not just Shmuel HaTzaddik, or Rochel Imeinu, but to Maran Ovadia Yosef & after the yartzheit, (or before, according to custom) to HaRav Shteinerman? Why is that OK (& judging by what I have seen & the number of people crying, they are “beiten” the Tzaddik to intervene On High), but going to the Rebbe is NOT OK?
It is incumbent for every Chosid to believe his Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation. And for us, the Rebbe possessed all the qualities of Moshiach. Will he be revealed as Moshiach? Well, I hope we will find out momentarily. If yes, great; if not… Moshiach will be here!! Frankly, I have no more clue than anyone & personally, I don’t believe it’s right to speculate.
I get that there are many YWN readers (some I can name) who won’t miss an opportunity to viciously denigrate not only Chabad but the Rebbe. So I made a hachlota for Chof Beis Shvat, the 30th yartzheit of Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka (whose levaya I still see); I’m not going to be drawn into any more arguments or answer even the most virulent anti-Chabadnikim. I will, however, if asked anything in a respectful manner, do my best to answer in the same vein – if I can!
May we all be zoche to greet Moshiach – whoever he is – NOW.February 5, 2018 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1462560
“Moshe Rabbeinu did not consider it “fine” when the Yidden in the midbar asked him for things!
The problem there was that they were complaining, not
asking. And so Moshe was upset with their lack of emuna.
Interestingly enough, you’re quote proves my point exactly. Moshe is saying there that when they complain against him, is not against him as a person, because what is he? He had no ego / selfish interests of his own. Rather, when they rebel against Moshe, they are really rebelling against Hashem. Because Moshe is just the messenger…February 5, 2018 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1462552
@syag I never said or implied I’m so smart and you’re all not.
What I did say is that compared to the Rebbe, we both have no understanding. As chassidim say, were the toenails, the Rebbe is the head.
Or as reb Hillel Paritcher, famous chossid of the Alter Rebbe said, “compared to the Rebbe I understand like a goat. And I don’t mean that the difference between my understanding and the Rebbe’s understanding (of Hashem etc ed) is the same same difference as the understanding between a goat and me, but rather, me and the goat understand the same of what a Rebbe is.”
And like you said we are all frum yidden, so it shouldn’t be so difficult to expect respect for Torah as that should be a frum value. I wouldn’t have this discussion with someone not frum. I expect better from frum yidden. As you should expect respect from me for your gedolim.
About the brain reference, that’s Tanya perek beis. Concept of all yidden being one neshama is brought down in Zohar. And expounded upon in many places in Chassidus. Also Tanya perek beis.
You’re welcome to ask. All im saying is that there is a way to ask – in a respectful manner.
Have you heard of Yaakov having a neshama klalis? Or is that something only people who learn Chassidus have heard of.
Lastly it seems there is some confusion. You can’t daven to the Rebbe. But you can ask brochos from the Rebbe for anything, as many chassidim do, not just Chabad. And today, even litvishe people by their gedolim / Roshei Yeshivos.
How is this allowed? Explanation posted above. I get there may be many new concepts there for people who haven’t learned Chassidus, so feel free to ask on anything else or for any source.February 5, 2018 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1462551samthenylicParticipant
Some number of years ago I worked in a CH fruit store, where the neighborhood people would do their shopping. A young lady, a BT, once was recounting how she gets her little child up in the morning, she said: “I wash him negel wasser, say “Mode ani”, and give him a picture of the Rebbe to kiss.”
Now, is this proper Yiras Shomayim, or is this shutfos CH”V? How do they teach Yiddishkeit?This “smells” of
early X-ianity!February 5, 2018 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1462613
“Please go back to your teachers and ask them to start with the very basics before jumping to Toras haNistar. That trajectory has messed up many people in much greater generations than ours.”
You’re 100% right in theory although it seems you don’t understand who or what we’re discussing here- I guess it makes sense you didn’t learn Chabad history in high school 🙂
Basically you’re right – its very dangerous to learn nistar on you’re own, without a proper teacher or explanation. Which is why I don’t get hope toi thinks he’s learning more pnimius HaTorah than me – with no Chassidus.
But that’s exactly what the Alter Rebbe was tasked with and why the Baal Shem Tov was so excited when he heard the Alter Rebbe’s neshama was coming down to this world – a neshama chadasha, not a gilgul. Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect – chochma bina and Daas – Chabad, in a way that it is now understandable and accessible to every Jew.
And he did that with writing the Tanya, Torah Or and Likutei Torah revealing tremendous concepts that were never bought into this world before.
All the other Rebbeim’s Torah are based off of the Alter Rebbe’s maamarim or subsequent Rebbeim (except maybe some of the Rebbe’s) They all expounded on it, and brought it down more but the core ideas were revealed by the Alter Rebbe.
So yes it is very dangerous to open a Zohar on your own and chart your Avodas Hahem according to what you “understand” without a proper teacher.
But Chassidus takes the concepts and makes them accessible by explaining them using mashalim from our experience.
Now before someone says this is disrespectful to everyone else, everyone has what they offer. I think Belz did Kiruv in Europe during the haskala movement – before Chabad. But what you said here is exactly what Chabad is all about.February 5, 2018 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1462650
samthenylic- Dont waste your time, Im sure theres a “rational” explanation for everything,February 5, 2018 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1462624LubavitcherParticipant
the rebbe is daavening at you request.
idk why this comment didnt go thu i wrote it a few days ago.February 5, 2018 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1462718
I’m just going to throw out a few lines here which many of you I’m sure will deem “problematic”.
שכינה מדברת מתוך גרונו
צדיקים דומים לבוראם
אתפשטותא דמשה שבכל דרא ודרא
צדיק גוזר הקב”ה מקיים
מרדכי בדורו כמשה בדורו
משה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל
אין דור שאין בו כמשה
I’ll be happy to source any of these problematic מאמרי חז”ל for you if you need.February 5, 2018 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1462679
@chabadshlucha ” Which is why I don’t get hope toi thinks he’s learning more pnimius HaTorah than me – with no Chassidus….”
That’s funny. As if learning Kabbalah with chassidus is conventional, and people who learn Nistar with a Rebbi are innovating. In any event, enough posters have tried to explain where you guys are lacking, again, I’m done. Though, once again, you never even acknowledged the ridiculous things mainstream, accepted, powerful Lubavitchers say (Cunin et al). And I’m pretty sure I explained that one. It’s utterly crazy for you to quote Zohars and Tanya like your repeating basic arithmetic, using primitive mashalim to explain neshamos and where they originate, and ignore sichas that literally encourage a’z. Mod, I took out a dot, so it’s not technically a link, and it’s literally source material, I hope that’s okay. See this
https://identifyingchabad.org/torasmenachem_1_162 dot pdf and the continuation here
https://identifyingchabad.org/torasmenachem_1_163 dot pdf
When you can explain away how Chabad teaches that Rebbes are veritable gods, you can start expecting others to respect Chabad. Until then, you’re all chashud on a’z. Not my words, your Rebbe’s. As an aside, I have a new understanding of how deeply a tzibbur can be brainwashed- your inability to deal with these facts, trying to quote one line from any sefer and explain away an entire movement/religion of hiskashrus is mind boggling.February 5, 2018 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1462724
You can’t daven to the Rebbe. But you can ask brochos from the Rebbe for anything, as many chassidim do, not just Chabad. And today, even litvishe people by their gedolim / Roshei Yeshivos.
Sure you can ask for a brachah – from anyone. Al t’hi birchas hedyot kalah b’einecha. But if all you do is ask for brachos, why do need the whole shtikl about mimutzah hamafsik vs. mimutzah hamechaber?February 5, 2018 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1462746
I am still trying to tell if you deliberately distort the questions or if you really don’t understand them as they were written. On the chance it is not deliberate:
@syag I never said or implied I’m so smart and you’re all not.
that wasn’t my claim. you have made several comments about how your concepts are too deep for most of us and have commented several times that it’s too hard to understand. Mostly because someone disagreed and you assumed it was a lack of comprehension.
And like you said we are all frum yidden, so it shouldn’t be so difficult to expect respect for Torah as that should be a frum value
My mention of being frum was not made in this context. As you know, I brought up being frum as a way of explaining to you that we too have rebbeim and Torah giants and a mesorah and will also defend our Rebbeim and Torah so asking us to set aside what we know is right and wrong so that you can feel respected is not acceptable. If you think my mention of being frum was about being respectful, then you seem to have missed my most important point.
.About the brain reference, that’s Tanya perek beis. Concept of all yidden being one neshama is brought down in Zohar. And expounded upon in many places in Chassidus. Also Tanya perek beis.
You must be aware that it was not the Zohar portion I was commenting on, it was claiming the Rebbe is the brain. I said the comment is problematic and you answer with the portion that isn’t and bring sources. Is this a deliberate omission? Is this how all of our sincere questions will be “answered”? You claim xyz are attributes of the Rebbe, and as a source you bring that xyz exist. That doesn’t begin to explain your statement and I feel you are making a fool of our sincerity. If there are answers, why can’t we have them? If I tell you that a donkey told me who was going to be moshiach, and my source was that donkeys indeed speak as we see in parsha with Balak, that would be insulting, denigrating and a distortion of Torah. Please do not do that in answering our sincere questions either.
in a respectful manner.
As I said, you are asking for respect but not willing to acknowledge the disrespect to our own gedolim and talmidei chochomim. Please understand that.
Rather, he is Hashem’s messenger telling me what my lifes mission is. A personal message from Hashem – relayed to me via his Roeh Neeman. And if that’s what I’m meant to do, that means this is what I was created for and given my set of talents for. And if course, fulfilling my mission will help me live life to the fullest
that is not special for lubavitch. that is how we all do things and how we all see the messages delivered by our gedolim and rabbeim. The problem is the Rebbe is not alive and could not have told you that. He is not here to be a personal messanger and give you advice. and THAT is what is in question.
Please go back to answering Toi, his questions are valid, thought out and speak for many.February 5, 2018 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1462777Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
The whole world being a body and the Rebbe being the brain just sounds like unambiguous elokism to me. Your putting the Rebbe on a level above where we traditionally put the (not yet here) Moshiach.
I mostly agree with Syag. The only thing I would say is in regards to the comparison about the woman who thinks she should be able to wear loose pants:
When a religious left-wing, bareheaded, pants-wearing, gemarra-learning woman comes over and asks “why do you think it’s not tznius to wear pants?” 99 times out of 100, she isn’t at all interested in your halachic answer. She’s already made it very clear that she hates and denies the halachah, and most likely it is just a warm up to an attack. Throughout the internet, most of the sites dedicated to criticizing or “questioning” Chabad, are not written by learned, inquisitive people. They really are just attackers. It’s possible that it’s conditioned Lubavitchers to getting so defensive so quickly.February 5, 2018 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1462790flowersParticipant
Syag: I agree with most of what you said, however saying “that is not special for lubavitch. that is how we all do things and how we all see the messages delivered by our gedolim and rabbeim.”
I think we believe that gedolim and rebbeim have use the Torah to give advice hence calling it “daas Torah”, and we believe their advice may contain an extra dose of siyata dishmaya, but to say we believe that all advice from gedolim and rebbeim are a direct or personal message from Hashem? I don’t think so.February 5, 2018 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1462759
“that wasn’t my claim. you have made several comments about how your concepts are too deep for most of us and have commented several times that it’s too hard to understand. Mostly because someone disagreed and you assumed it was a lack of comprehension.”
They are deep and delicate concepts, and my concern is that that in conveying them correctly. And yes from the some of the results i got, it seems I didn’t fully convey the concept correctly so I tried to add in more. Its my achrayus to try to convey properly as much as yours to try to understand what I say. I don’t see that as offensive.
” that we too have rebbeim and Torah giants and a mesorah and will also defend our Rebbeim and Torah so asking us to set aside what we know is right and wrong so that you can feel respected is not acceptable”
I did not see one Rebbe or Torah giant quoted. In any case I think I made it clear that it totally fine to discuss, but to say things like your Rebbe’s sicha is…. Cvs, is completely unacceptable. No one here should think they’re greater than the tens of gedolim who met and consulted with the Rebbe. I wouldn’t mind if he said something like, “I don’t understand how this quote of the Rebbe doesn’t contradict this halacha…” But for him to pasken on the Rebbe is not acceptable which is why I can’t continue answering his questions
“, it was claiming the Rebbe is the brain”
Ya that’s in Tanya perek beis, and the Zohar brings the part of all of us being the same neshama. Wasn’t sure which one you wanted the source for so I gave both. Tanya says “Roshei bnei Yisrael shebidoram” exact quote.
“As I said, you are asking for respect but not willing to acknowledge the disrespect to our own gedolim and talmidei chochomim. Please understand that.”
Don’t see where I disrespected any gadol please enlighten me.
“that is not special for lubavitch. that is how we all do things and how we all see the messages delivered by our gedolim and rabbeim. The problem is the Rebbe is not alive and could not have told you that. He is not here to be a personal messanger and give you advice. and THAT is what is in question.”
Actually one of the questions is how we can ask the Rebbe for anything, instead of only Hashem – see the title of this thread.
Joseph added that part, so I was starting to answer with first explaining about the concept of what a Rebbe is. I don’t know what is normal or not normal for you because things that I take for granted, some people here are railing about. If everything I said is so obvious why are people upset and what’s the question anyway? Every time I answer one, the question becomes something else.
I can continue answering if everything I said until now is clear, and people phrase things respectfully. Also, now I think I’m not understanding you properly and we’re miscommunicating. So I don’t know if I should continue if I’m confusing, or misunderstanding you and you misunderstanding me. I think the main concept I gave over, lmk if that’s all clear. If it is and we’re on the same page, I can continue.February 5, 2018 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1462800Non PoliticalParticipant
@ “Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect”
The RAMCHAL did a masterful job of this already.February 5, 2018 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1462803JosephParticipant
CS, aww, SHY:
1. Why do you attribute all these things to the last Rebbe and not to the Baal HaTanya? Why don’t you address your bakoshos to the Baal HaTanya (or to the Frierdike Rebbe) and hang his picture all over the place like you do the last Rebbe?
2. How does the Rebbe answer your questions that you ask him? Do you get a letter in the mail from Shamayim? How does the Rebbe write letters to Chasanim that are read at Lubavitcher Chupas?
3. Why is there a thing called “Chillul Lubavitch” (and what is it) but we never hear of Chillul Bobov, Chillul Brisk, etc.?February 5, 2018 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1462839
@joseph @syag Did you take a look at the sicha I quoted above.
@CS- I have no problems with the Baal Hatanya. I may be wrong, but I think that ship has sailed quite some time ago. Once again, it is those sichas of the heintige rebbe that are problematic. You have not addressed them.
ThanksFebruary 5, 2018 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1462840
I’ll answer in order.
1. It’s a generational thing. Hence the title “Nossi Hador”. The Alter Rebbes Chassidim treated him the way (more or less) we treat our Rebbe, same goes for the Frierdiker Rebbe and the other Rebbeim. I’m not sure which things you mean by “attribute all these things”.
2. After the Frierdiker Rebbes passing, a Chossid asked the Rebbe how we should continue writing to the Frierdiker Rebbe if there’s no answers anymore. The Rebbe answered him, “place your letter at the Frierdiker Rebbes Tziyun, and the Frierdiker Rebbe will find a way to answer” sometimes we’ll see an answer, and other times we won’t. The Rebbe during his lifetime didn’t answer every single letter either.
No, letters don’t drop from Shamayim, and finding letters and deciding that they were written to you specifically (opening Igros at random) was never instructed by the Rebbe.
Letter read by the Chuppah: I’m not sure what there is to understand here. Simply, the Rebbe would write a letter with the same standard text to all Chassanim and Kallos, and after the Rebbes histalkus, now that we don’t get a personal letter from him, we simply read out the Nusach he would write. FYI, same goes for Bar Mitzvos and other special occasions.
3. Chilul Lubavitch isn’t an “official” Chabad concept, it’s just something people say. I’ve heard many Lubavitchers who don’t like that term, but regardless, the way I understand it is:
A Chilul Lubavitch is obviously a Chilul Hashem, but it refers to basically, bad PR for Lubavitch in particular. It means when our image is ruined specifically. Again, out of all things, I don’t know why this bothers you. You’ve raised it in other threads too.February 5, 2018 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1462846
Why should the lubavitch image be of any more signifance than anyone else’s image. Yet noone else uses that term about themselves. Usually Yodden just say chilul Hashem because the “PR” for Hashem is of the only importance to them.February 5, 2018 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1462854
Great sechel. I can add tomorrow iyh stories and a bit more more as I want to check up some points before. If you’d like to check up yourself, the answers to these and many similar questions can be found on the stump the Rabbi site, where the rabbis answer questions that are from ffb Chabad people who ask all these questions at some point.
To summarise the points flow:
1) lubavitchers understand that sicha as the Rebbe intended with his other examples, as a tzadik being a revelation of Hashem in this world, like Moshe was able to say I referring to Hashem etc.
Other sources include nefesh Hachaim which says the same thing. Any other attempt to “read” into it is taking it out of context (like missionaries do), and done to drive an agenda which isn’t there.
2) we know it’s done but why is it OK to ask Rebbeim/tzaddikim for brachos as opposed to only Hashem?
Answer because the tzadik is a mimutza hamechaber so Hashem can answer you through the tzadik. And you can put your “best foot forward” by having your “head” ask for you.February 5, 2018 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1462861
I am not sure why but it seems you think people are asking why it’s okay to ask rebbeim for brachos. I am pretty sure that is a fairly common concept, the question has been, if you will go back to check it again, how you are thinking you have gotten a response from someone who is no longer alive? We all daven by kivrei tsaddikim and HASHEM answers us. not the tsaddik. Even if He answers THROUGH the tefillos of the tsaddik. This idea of getting present day responses to present day specifics as if he answered is the question. And it is not a chassidus question as they do not do this once the rebbe has died.February 5, 2018 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1462863refoelzeevParticipant
the concept of the shechina resting in a tzaddik just like in the beis hamikdosh is found in nefesh hachaim (my favorite litvishe Sefer). See nefesh hachaim 1:4 in the hago I quote
לזאת הרי כי ודאי עיקר ענין הקדש והמקדש ושריית שכינתו ית’ הוא האדם שאם יתקדש עצמו כראוי בקיום המצות כולן שהם תלויין ג”כ בשורשן העליון אז הוא עצמו המקדש ממש *ובתוכו* ה’ ית”ש
By that logic one can daven TO the beis hamikdash. As far as I know, Lubavitch doesn’t advocate for that. It’s one thing to daven towards it or to have the makom Hamikdash in mind, but not to daven to the building Chas veshalom.
Therefore it is clear to me that this is a misappropriation of the teaching of the Nefesh Hachaim, and him saying the shechina rests in a tzaddik clearly doesn’t include permission to daven to him.February 5, 2018 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1462891
@CS- do you have a source for the difference between the two mimutzahs?February 5, 2018 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1462892
Also, I’m randomly going to chime in here that I miss my old under-screen-name-description-thingy. Mine was funny, and now it looks like they’ve been nistalek. Bummer.February 5, 2018 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1462890
Honestly, shtelling tzu the Nefesh Hachaim is nutto. Maybe y’all need to understand what Shechina is in the first place.
@CS A tzaddik is not a revelation of Hashem. Moshe Rabbeinu was saying over nevuah, directly from Hashem. No other Navi in history has had that darga of nevuah…unless the Rebbe did?!
And again, you haven’t dealt with the heintiger referring to the frierdiker as in the room with us, hakol yachol,etc., as well as the widely available quotes of davening to the Rebbe after he died, and the Cunin video. Do you have an answer for the cunin video? Or is one of the top men in Chabad also one of the marginized, insignificant boreinu-niks?February 5, 2018 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1462917
Toi- “and the Cunin video. ”
-Are you referring to “that everyone will soon know that its the Rebbe who runs the world”
What exactly bothered you in that statement?February 5, 2018 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #1462923
Been following this thread with interest.
1. Would like top see a coherent defense or denouncement of the Rabbi Cunin video.
2. One can ask for a bracha from a litvishe Gadol/Rosh Yeshiva, provided that individual is alive. So comparing the two would not be accurate….February 5, 2018 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1462949
I get it, lets see if we can get an answerFebruary 5, 2018 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1462950
“שכינה מדברת מתוך גרונו”
You do realize that is exclusively to משה רע”ה ,ONLY not even any other Navi, the Rebbe is not even close to any Navi. ( And I lost was already discussed in another thread, which I think this one is just a recycling most issues).
More surprised that you should have known that at least from the Tanya.
– לקו”א ל”ד
והנה, מודעת זאת, ש(זוהר ויקרא כז): “האבות הן הן המרכבה”, שכל ימיהם לעולם לא הפסיקו אפילו שעה אחת מלקשר דעתם ונשמתם לרבון העולמים בביטול הנ”ל ליחודו יתברך, ואחריהם כל הנביאים כל אחד לפי מדרגת נשמתו והשגתו, ומדרגת משה רבנו עליו השלום היא העולה על כולנה, שאמרו עליו שכינה מדברת מתוך גרונו של משה (שמו”ר פ’ ג; ויק”ר פ’ ב; מכילתא שמות יח
The only a there one might me בלעם according to some…February 5, 2018 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #1462956
The concept of connecting to a Tzadik as connection to Hashem is already mentioned in the Rambam in sefer hamitzvos 7
הציווי שנצטווינו להתערב בין החכמים ולהתחבר אתם ולהתמיד ולשבת עמהם ולהשתתף עמהם בכל דרך מדרכי ההשתתפות: במאכל ומשתה ומקח וממכר, כדי שנגיע בכך להדמות למעשיהם ולהאמין בדעות האמתיות מדבריהם.
והוא אמרו יתעלה: “ולדבקה-בו” (שם יא, כב)
וכבר נכפל גם הציווי הזה, ואמר: “ובו תדבק” (שם י, כ).
ובא הפירוש: “ולדבקה בו” – הדבק בחכמים ותלמידיהם.
זהו לשון הספרי.
וכן הביאו ראיה על החובה לישא בת תלמיד חכמים ולהשיא בתו לתלמיד חכמים ולהנות תלמידי חכמים ולהתעסק עמהם ממה שנאמר “ובו תדבק”. אמרו:
“וכי אפשר לו לאדם להדבק בשכינה?
והא כתיב: “כי ה’ אלקיך אש אכלה הוא” (שם ד, כד) –
אלא כל הנושא בת תלמיד חכמים” וכו
But by far to the above mentioned extent.February 6, 2018 7:28 am at 7:28 am #1462982RSoParticipant
“But that’s exactly what the Alter Rebbe was tasked with and why the Baal Shem Tov was so excited when he heard the Alter Rebbe’s neshama was coming down to this world – a neshama chadasha, not a gilgul. Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect – chochma bina and Daas – Chabad, in a way that it is now understandable and accessible to every Jew.”
This is another story (aka “proof”) of the greatness of chabad that has it’s source a story told only in chabad by chabad.
When will CS understand that we just can’t accept this as even slightly meaningful?February 6, 2018 7:29 am at 7:29 am #1462983RSoParticipant
Could someone out there explain to me why the lubavitch minhog of placing a picture of the last rebbe in the pillow under the baby at his bris is not at least close to a”z c”v?
PLEASE don’t give me the standard answer that a picture of a tzaddik inspires you etc because that is only when one looks at a picture. Imbuing the picture with some quasi-kedusha by having it placed where it CAN’T BE SEEN is clearly out of the ballpark.February 6, 2018 8:45 am at 8:45 am #1463005awwParticipant
I don’t want to spend much time here and I didn’t read all the posts but it seems that people dont understand the concept of connecting to a tzaddik and they don’t accept Tanya as a source. See דרשות הרן a universally accepted Sefer by a rishon דרוש ח:
אין ספק שראוי שנאמין, שכמו בזמן שבית המקדש היה קיים, היה המעון ההוא המקודש מקום מוכן לחול שפע הנבואה והחכמה, עד שבאמצעות המקום ההוא היה שופע על כל ישראל, כן ראוי שיהיו הנביאים והחכמים מוכנים לקבל שפע החכמה והנבואה, עד שבאמצעותם יושפע השפע ההוא על המוכנים לכל בני דורם לכך, גם אם לא ישתתפו עמהם, אבל מצד המצאם בדורם, שהם בעצמם כמו המקדש המקודש. והרמב”ן ז”ל כתב בסוף סדר והיה עקב: “ויתכן באנשי חכמה זאת המעלה, שתהיה נפשם גם בחייהם צרורה בצרור החיים, כי הם בעצמם מעון לשכינה, כאשר רמזו בעל הכוזרי (מאמר ג, א), ע”כ. ואפשר שנתכוין גם לזה. ולפיכם בהמצאם לנביאים ולחכמים בדורות יהיה השפע שופע עליהם, ובאמצעותם אפשר שיהיה שופע על כל המוכנים מבני דורם, וכל שכן לאותם שהם מתקרבים אליהם ומשתתפים עמהם. ולא בחייהם בלבד, כי גם אחרי מותם, מקומות קברותיהן ראויין להמצא השפע שם בצד מן הצדדים, כי עצמותיהם אשר כבר היו כלים לחול עליהם השפע האלקי, עדיין נשאר בהם מן המעלה והכבוד שיספיק לכיוצא בזה, ומפני זה אמרו רז”ל שראוי להשתטח על קברי הצדיקים ולהתפלל שם, כי התפלה במקום ההוא תהיה רצויה יותר להמצא שם גופות אשר חל עליהם כבר השפע האלקי.
There is nothing new in chassidus every concept has a source in prior seforim if Torah.
The posters here should ask daas Torah themselves before denigrating a whole section of klal Yisroel. Ask Rav Shmuel Kaminetzsky not a Lubavitcher in any way. in the Yeshiva I went to he was considered the gadol hador of America. I personally know 2 bochrim who went to a litvish Yeshiva and wanted to switch to a chabad Yeshiva to learn chassidus as well as Gemara they asked him and his reply was “ why not ? If you want to switch there is no problem we all learn Toras moshe” . These posters here though think they are the daas Torah and gedoilim ofvthus generation as can be seen with the gaava they speak against other segments and leaders in klal Yisroel ( bringing up past machlokesin means nothing, there were always machlokesin going back to the Rambam, ask the daas Torah in your generation )February 6, 2018 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1463157BubbyoParticipant
I will not go back to the inyan of the mon that I posted before. Anyone who sees the whole inyon can easily see for themselves the problem with the position of the Chabad shlucha, that Moshe R’ thought it was fine to ask things from him.
I, for one, after reading this blog, am very shaken. While some of the Chabad posters seem to have retained normative emunah, some of the posters, in attempting to explain Chabad thought, have confirmed my worst fears for Lubavitch, disclaimers and “raayos” not withstanding. It is possible to bring “raayos” to be metaher a sheretz. Without the concept of Hashem Echad with NO shutaf, as the bedrock of any other beliefs, we get into trouble. The Non-Jews are allowed the serve avodas hashituf. We are not! I am not qualified to say with any kind of certainty, but perhaps it was this very problem, of twisting deep, delicate concepts into unacceptable beliefs, that the Vilna Gaon foresaw when he was so opposed to early Chassidus.
I understand that the feeling of having “THE BEST CONNECTION” to Shomayim is a heady, exciting thought that probably energizes much of the movement, and even though I disagree that Chabad has the best connection, I fargin them just like I fargin all of the Shivtei Yisroel whose goal is Yiraas Shomayim. But putting a human being on the same plane as Moshe R’ (“bedoro” means that we must accept their words in our generation just as we accepted the words of Moshe Rabbeinu. NOT that they are the same! See Rashi) and putting a human being on the same footing C”V as the RBS”O (being able to provide for and run the world,) is simply way out of a true Torah perspective! Tzadik gozer vaHashem mekayem does not give a tzadik the same powers as HKB”H, C”V x a million!
Chabad Shlucha, and all the others, you seem to be intelligent and sincere. Please try to fix from within what is wrong with Chabad today, so that all the wonderfully right things that they do can be fully appreciated. It’s time for Chabad to rejoin the body of Klal Yisroel again. From what I remember and have learned from the Daas Torah of this generation, this is a relatively new issue, not more than 25 -30 years old. Before the derech took this dangerous turn, Lubavitch used to be a well respected Chassidus, just like other Chassidusim . I wish you (and all of us) much hatzlacha!
May we all be zocheh to greet Moshiach Tzidkeinu very soon and Tishbi Yetaretz Kushyos Ubaayos!February 6, 2018 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1463176awwParticipant
Typical misnaged talk
The entire chassidus and limud hachassidus has just one purpose AIN OID LEVADO. The is nothing but One Hashem. Our entire life has to revolve around this concept serving only Hashem. ( Not serving ourselves doing mitzvos for schar or avoiding onesh or learning Torah to inflate ourselves and shtayg into gedoilim) Anyone who studies this can see for themselves. Taking small sentences out of context is a smear campaign , the misnagdim are the ones truely bring metame sheretz and will never accept they are wrong no matter what source is brought due to their preconceived notions.February 6, 2018 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1463204
You still haven’t explained the Cunin video.
Also, can you provide an example of where misnagdim are metame sheretz?February 6, 2018 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1463201
Aww your great but a bit too sharp I’d say normally. But here I think there is a place for it. People who have no clue of Chassidus are paskening on the Rebbe and Chassidus, expecting us to bring sources for everything we say, which they then promptly dismiss because “they” think it doesn’t fit with what they think of Chabad or Yiddishkeit, without bothering to bring a counter source. And these chutzpinyaks dare to place themselves on the same footing as the Rebbe to judge if he is a frum Jew?! Such craziness warrants a real sharp response. As for me, I can’t share here in such a crazy environment where people take half a sentence, pasken its shitfus because that’s what feels right, don’t bother to reply to the sources brought or bring their own, or ask further on what isn’t clear – that would be a serious productive discussion, and if all else fails, counter with 5 new questions…
Anyhow there is a site that answers many such questions with respected Mashpiim within Chabad in short videos called stump the Rabbi – I invite you serious people to check it out.
Bubbyo you sound sincere except for the chutzpah of the above attitude so I’ll respond to a point:
Shitfus is when something says serve me IN ADDITION or INSTEAD OF Hashem. Not when Hashem Himself decides to make tzaddikim His partners in running the world – like all the miracle stories of tzaddikim you hear, just one example – how Hashem left the option of Napoleon or Czar winning the war up to which tzadik would blow shofar first – because in these cases its HASHEM’S system, not a rival one.
By your understanding, it must be very hard to understand the posuk that says “Three times a year all your males should see the face of Hashem your G-d in the place He chose…”
Because according to this sort of understanding, anywhere Hashem reveals Himself becomes shitfus and avoda zara so this we should be forbidden from visiting the Beis Hamikdash, because maybe we’ll think the mountain is god.
I know that’s ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous to say the same about a tzadik.February 6, 2018 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1463211
השתטח על קברי הצדיקים ולהתפלל שם does not = pictures and does not mean he’s alive – all the R”N is saying is that his Guf has some kedusha via his connection to Hashem. Actually, Pictures as per Kaballah has Klipos and many Gadolie Baal Mekublim were makpid not to have their pictures taken (I recall a responsum in SHu”T Divrei Malkiel – who wasn’t even a Chasid – opposing it) I have no issue with the very pictures, but to take that the other way and worship it – THAT is an issue.
The concept of השתטח על קברי הצדיקים is already mentioned in Chazal more than once – nothing new here. (see Yavomos 122a in Rashi תלתא ריגלי in the name of Gaonim) No one has Taynes on the very Chassidus part – it is the extent how far nowadays Chabd has taken it to.
They have substituted the original i.e. a live or direct devekus to a dead one. Chassidus was meant as to have a live Rebbe (as the above Rambam) and not (as per R”N) ” להמצא השפע שם בצד מן הצדדים” The above R”N was not meant to take that as your primary source of Devekus Hashem.February 6, 2018 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1463193
“It’s time for Chabad to rejoin the body of Klal Yisroel again”
Well, thanks for inviting us back so nicely. I’ll raise it with the board next general meeting.
I’m not sure why anyone here gets the impression that any Lubavitcher here (I, CS, Aww,) is defending davening to the Rebbe. I don’t “daven to the Rebbe” I daven to Hashem. I’ve been Lubavitch my entire life, I’ve never seen anyone “daven to the Rebbe”.
When a Chossid goes to his Rebbes Tziyun, and davens there, that’s beseeching the Rebbe to intercede on your behalf just like a live Tzadik would. Hishtatchus Al Kivrei Tzadikim is not a new concept. Yidden of all stripes do it, ever been to Meron on Lag Baomer? I’ve personally seen Rebbes of other kraizen visit the Lubavitcher Rebbes Tziyun. Are they also “serving a”z?” Yehoshua and Kalev visited Kivrei Tzadikim, the Avos. It’s not a new practice. (I know, the Gra wrote against it… and Litvaks visit his Kever too…)
It’s mind boggling how every time you don’t like something you can throw out “avodah Zara!”. Maybe you should focus on the things that many frum people do that have more likelihood of being A”Z, like yoga, reiki, etc.
Or how about the “Blei Gisen” (pouring lead) to remove Ayin Hora which many say originates in Avoda Zara? I haven’t seen mass protests to it. It’s done in many frum communities, Lakewood too I’m sure.
When I quoted those lines before, with no context at all, just the original, some of you decided that the way I’m using them is also A”Z.
Of course I mean that the Rebbe is the Aibershter r”l. What else do Lubavitchers believe? Incredulous how you can decide what we believe, and put words in our mouths.
Re Rabbi Cunin, I don’t know about you, but in Lubavitch we aren’t sitting watching videos of him. I’ve never seen this video or any other video of him. Regardless, the insiders will tell you that he’s isn’t the most stable of people…February 6, 2018 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1463214
aww – speaking of gaava…
you just turned a potentially constructive conversation to garbage. And were actually complimented for it and encouraged. How pitiful. It seems that answering legitimate questions isn’t a possibility and that taking an opportunity to enlighten a bunch of people who have been misinformed all their lives is still not worth your time because in the end we are just a bunch of filthy misnagdim. Just as someone on another thread claimed you felt all along.
You disgust me.February 6, 2018 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1463217
SY – for the hundredth time, instead of spitting, try answering. You are so volatile that instead of saying, “I am sorry you have this false impression, let me clear this up for you” (which is what we have been asking) your response is, “you all make me sick and I expected nothing less and instead of offering you any information I will just tell you all what I think of you”
not too productive.February 6, 2018 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1463229
CS – I’m sorry that’s your upteitch. You couldn’t be more wrong. You are asking us to accept statements that our own daas Torah says is wrong while you should be allowed to say whatever you want and demand whatever you want. If you cannot answer someone’s question on the rebbes words without insisting that they give him the same legitimacy you do that is plain crazy. Why in the world do you think we are asking in the first place! Because we don’t know your reasons and would like to hear them. But every time we explain why a concept is something we have been educated against, you decide its called chutzpah and slam the door.
Well guess what, that is what WE were taught. How dare you ask us to shed the directives of our mesorah in order to give you respect that you can’t even give us the decency of defending? You keep speaking to us as if we are an audience that is supposed to just sit and listen and nod our heads when your words are clear, and raise our hands when we have questions, instead of learned people who have comments and disagreements. If you have legitimate responses, THEN GIVE THEM ALREADY! You were asked to explain concepts that are foreign to us. If you don’t think your beliefs are defendable then just say so.February 6, 2018 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1463231
Shitfus is when something says serve me IN ADDITION or INSTEAD OF Hashem. Not when Hashem Himself decides to make tzaddikim His partners in running the world
Do you realize that according to your definition, christianity is okay?February 6, 2018 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1463235
“I am sorry you have this false impression, let me clear this up for you” (which is what we have been asking) your response is, “you all make me sick and I expected nothing less and instead of offering you any information I will just tell you all what I think of you”
We are trying to clear it up, but when we tell you that we don’t daven to the Rebbe, you decide that we still do.
If you want, write down a list of questions, not pre conceived notions (like, “why do you daven to the Rebbe”) and I’ll do my best to answer. And for the reference, questions to Cunin can be addressed to him, I don’t work for him.
“Not when Hashem Himself decides to make tzaddikim His partners in running the world”
That’s not a very good loshon to use. I take issue with it.
Additionally, it’s not a very good argument either, because what do you think anyone who was doing shituf would tell you? I obviously don’t think you are, but if I did, that wouldn’t convince me otherwise.February 6, 2018 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1463240
Very simple question: Just about every sect of Yiddishkeit, whether chassidishe or litvish (the term “misnaged” isnt used anymore today, as many litvishe gedolim have close relationships with, and respect for, many Chassidishe rabbonim) has a leader that they adore and revere. And that is a tremendous thing. But they all believe that there are other people who are gedolim as well and whose words and opinions they respect as being Daas Torah. Chabad also has (had?) a leader they respect and adore. Great. Who is number 2? Is there any other gadol from any other sect that is respected in Chabad circles?February 6, 2018 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1463239
That’s not a very good loshon to use. I take issue with it.
I think you need to open your eyes and realize that such l’shonos are all too common.
When those in Chabad, such as yourself, whose shittos do not include such blatent a”z turn a blind eye to such talk (and actions) and merely “take issue” with it, and write it off as mere semantics, you allow the very serious and rampant problem to fester and get worse.
The moderates such as yourself need to be more forceful against the kefirah and meshugas in Chabad and do a better job of marginalizing the offenders and uprooting it.
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