Chalav Yisroel exceptions

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  • #615995

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Are there different shittos about chalav yisroel or do people just make up their own rules. I know there are people who are strict and consume all dairy products chalav yisroel, while others are strict about milk but other products they eat chalav stam. And what about products on dairy equipment only. Is that considered chalav stam. On a side note, I am amazed the number of people who no longer or who never have adhered to chalav yisroel.

    #1092236

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Yes to all your questions. Some people make up their own rules (“I use CY milk but CY cottage cheese is too expensive”) and some people have a more defensible basis (there’s an idea that may or may not be correct that the milk of non-kosher animals simply can’t be made into whatever — butter, cheese, you name it). Regarding your side note, outside major frum population areas, CY products tend to be unavailable or have crazy prices.

    #1092237

    Avi Gordon
    Participant

    It depends where you live. In Eretz Yisrael or Boro Park, it’s hard NOT to find chalav yisrael products.

    I once had a chavrusa who had a tayva for Entemann’s Cookies, which aren’t chalav yisrael. So he was mareh heter for himself.

    In many communities outside of Brooklyn, it’s hard to find chalav yisrael. So I could understand people being maikel there.

    #1092238

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Are there different shittos about chalav yisroel”

    No. All agree there is a takanas chazal. There is disagreement whether the commercial milk sold in the USA under government oversight and regulation satisfies this takanas chazal.

    “or do people just make up their own rules.”

    Personally, I dont know a large enough percentage of “people” to state one way or another what “people” do or dont do.

    “chalav stam”

    the proper term is chalav shel hakompanies – IE milk produced under government oversight and regulation.

    “And what about products on dairy equipment only. Is that considered chalav stam.”

    You mean, chalav shel hacompanies, right?

    “On a side note, I am amazed the number of people who no longer or who never have adhered to chalav yisroel.”

    I am hard pressed to find anyone who does not. I am familiar with people who drink milk labeled chalav yisroel, and people who drink chalav produced under government oversight and regulation which according to their poskim satisfy the takanas chazal.

    #1092239

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I disagree with every point apushatayid made in that post.

    #1092240

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher, there are many different opinions about different types of dairy products.

    Some shittos are meikil on butter and some on cheese. On a practical level, soft cheeses not labeled as Cholov Yisroel are not g’vinas Yisroel, because the OU goes according to the shittah that it’s not required, but it’s a machlokes. Some are not makpid on powdered milk because there is a shittah which holds that way . There’s a machlokes whether one must be machmir on keilim if he’s machmir on not eating Cholov Stam.

    In short, probably most combinations of chumrah/kulah have a leg to stand on. Whether the individual decided on his own for arbitrary reasons, went through the sugya, or asked a shailah, is something you would have to ask him or her.

    #1092241

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I know people who dont eat Chalav Yisroel Butter because butter cannot be made from any milk except cows milk

    #1092242

    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s a machlokes whether one must be machmir on keilim if he’s machmir on not eating Cholov Stam.

    Which shitta that requires one avoid Cholov Stam then permits one to utilize Cholov Stam keilim without it affecting the status of the CY food on said keilim?

    #1092243

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m told that R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky held that way.

    #1092244

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is using cholov stam keilim the same idea as consuming food that is “DE” (from the hechsheirim that label dairy equipment certified food differently than dairy)?

    #1092245

    writersoul
    Member

    Joseph: The concept of DE means that whether the dairy in the equipment is CY or CS (or CSHK, because I agree with apy), the dairy is processed on the equipment and afterward completely pareve-ingredient food is made with that equipment. The question is whether the food is still pareve- it very possibly is, but we don’t necessarily hold that way lemaaseh.

    #1092246

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No

    #1092247

    Sam2
    Participant

    Isn’t there a Rama or something somewhere that says that real Chalav Akum doesn’t make Keilim Treif?

    DY: I highly doubt you disagree with everything apushatayid said. For example:

    “No. All agree there is a takanas chazal. There is disagreement whether the commercial milk sold in the USA under government oversight and regulation satisfies this takanas chazal.”

    seems correct, what’s there to disagree about there?

    “Personally, I dont know a large enough percentage of “people” to state one way or another what “people” do or dont do.”

    I presume you don’t know everyone he knows

    “I am hard pressed to find anyone who does not. I am familiar with people who drink milk labeled chalav yisroel, and people who drink chalav produced under government oversight and regulation which according to their poskim satisfy the takanas chazal.”

    or what’s wrong with this statement?

    #1092248

    Joseph
    Participant

    “The question is whether the food is still pareve”? The bigger question seems to be whether those makpid on CY or permitted to consume DE or not.

    I was also wondering if DE kosher certified commercial food has the same halachic implications as Cholov Yisroel food made in Cholov Stam keilim at home, for those makpid on eating CY. (Obviously in the latter case the food is milichigs.)

    #1092249

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, I do disagree with two of those.

    1) I disagree with that as the only machlokes, which is what he’s saying (“No.”.)

    2) You got me on that one.

    3) He’s hard pressed to find non frum people? He surely meant among frum people, but according to his own pedantry (nitpicking on the common terminology) he’s wrong.

    #1092250

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (Obviously in the latter case the food is milichigs.)

    That depends on the case, and how you define “milchigs”.

    #1092251

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    BTW, the OU calls it Chalav Stam. Also, in this article, they admit that it’s no longer R’ Moshe’s heter, but a different one (based on R’ Moshe’s heter). Not everyone agrees to it.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53256&st=&pgnum=84

    #1092252

    benignuman
    Participant

    Another problem with OU “chalav stam” is that the OU allows milk from cows which have had their abomasum pierced. If your posek holds that this makes the cow a treifa, OU chalav stam is just treif (because the cows that get pierced are more than 1/60).

    #1092253

    Joseph
    Participant

    (Obviously in the latter case the food is milichigs.)

    That depends on the case, and how you define “milchigs”.

    Er, please explain how “Cholov Yisroel food made in Cholov Stam keilim” is ever not milichigs.

    #1092254

    Annonymouschochom
    Participant

    Two things:

    1) apushatayid- You are simply mistaken. Without Reb Msshe zt”l’s heter, there are only two type of milk; Cholov Yisroel which is kosher, and Cholov Akum which is not. Reb Moshe is the one who classified the milk of the companies as Cholov Stam, not Cholov Akum, and permitted the milk, albeit not as a l’chatchila.

    2) It is important to note, that the heter of butter no longer applies. Although many poskim permitted butter because it can only be made with cows milk, nowadays their are dairy additives which are added to the butter. Those additives/ingredients are Cholov Yisroel sensitive, and therefore for those who are makpid on Cholov Yisroel, there is no heter to eat Cholov Stam butter.

    #1092255

    yitzy99
    Member

    I wonder why I don’t see gallon containers of Chalav Yisroel in local stores. Consumers might save money if gallons were sold and this might encourage some to use it.

    #1092256

    Redleg
    Participant

    You know, I’ve always been told that cheese can only be made from the milk of kosher animals (not “processed cheese food”). Now I read that there is a special Serbian cheese made from the milk of Balkan donkeys. At about $1000/lb, I doubt that you’ll find it in the dairy case at Shoprite but it does give added reason to be makpid on cholov and givinas Yisroel

    #1092257

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Any cheese or milk from animals other than a cow or a goat is very expensive and not worth it to use.

    Nobody is going to mix $1000 a gallon milk with $5 gallon milk and charge you $5.

    #1092258

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Redleg, they’ve figured out how to add the proper enzymes to coagulate different types of milk to form cheese. There are cheaper cheeses from milk of a beheimah temeiah than what you mentioned, such as from camel’s milk.

    The common heter for cholov stam is used for the source of milk used in kosher cheese (e.g. Miller’s), but the actual issur of gevinas akum (affecting the cheese making process) is still applicable even if you hold of R’ Moshe’s heter.

    #1092259


    Participant

    Although cheese can be made from other milks. The farmers wouldn’t adulterate milk sold to cheesemakers because any substitution would be apparent during the cheese making process.

    #1092260

    Annonymouschochom
    Participant

    Um…

    Gevinas Akum is prohibited. Period. Cholov Stam cheese is not Gevinas Akum. It is cheese made with Cholov Stam, supervised by a Jew, making it Gevinas Yisroel made out of Cholov Stam milk.

    #1092261

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Another problem with OU “chalav stam” is that the OU allows milk from cows which have had their abomasum pierced. If your posek holds that this makes the cow a treifa, OU chalav stam is just treif (because the cows that get pierced are more than 1/60).

    Someone mind explaining this one to me? I had thought that a Treifah is an animal (or person) that will not live out the year.

    ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??? Chullin 57a.

    In addition, these Halachos of Treifah apply to people as well. Are we Machmir there as well (for example, that someone who kills someone who has the equivalent surgery will be Patur, even though the murdered individual could have lived another 60+ years)? I imagine there are other Halachic ramifications as well.

    #1092262


    Participant

    I wonder why I don’t see gallon containers of Chalav Yisroel in local stores. Consumers might save money if gallons were sold and this might encourage some to use it.

    It would just make any spoilage issues worse. Most consumers wouldn’t buy the gallons, however WIC beneficiaries would be compelled to get the gallon size driving families that aren’t Makpid on CY to switch their WIC benefits to CS brands.

    #1092263

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am no cheese expert and know very little about it, but I know there is a differnece between soft cheeses like Cottage Cheese or Ricotta vs hard cheeses like Swiss or Provolone.

    Most commercial soft cheeses in NYC area are kosher no matter the brand (They usually have an o-u or some other Hashcha ) (Like Breakstone for example) but Swiss cheese must be a kosher brand

    #1092264

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, there’s a famous Chazon Ish about this. He talks about 2000 year tekufos. I don’t have the citation on hand.

    Simply put, the twelve month lifespan (which is itself a machlokes) is how the identity of treifos is determined, but once we have a list of which perforations are considered a treifah, it’s still a treifah even if it lives longer, including if new treatments become available. The gemara you cited clls it a siman, not a sibah.

    ZD, basically correct, but soft cheese is actually a machlokes, although common minhag (and OU policy) is to be meikil.

    #1092265

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY – Let me know when you have it, thanks. Also, this would mean that someone who had an ulcer (or similar) would be patur for killing/get killed, is considered an “Eid she’ei Atah Yachol L’Hazimah”, etc.?

    #1092266

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “it does give added reason to be makpid on cholov and givinas Yisroel”

    I’ll be sure to keep this in mind when purchasing cheese in Serbia.

    “I wonder why I don’t see gallon containers of Chalav Yisroel in local stores.”

    It doesnt make sense for the producers and sellers. As a general rule of thumb, the larger the size, the lower the unit cost. In the case of milk, if for example, half gallon sells for $2.99 – a gallon will sell for say $4.79 (not $4.98) this is true of the quart and half gallon sizes sold already. You the consumer will buy the same gallon of milk whether you buy it in a gallon container or in 2 half gallon containers. From the perspective of the milk company, why should they leave 20 cents on the table gallon after gallon. From the perspective of the store owners (no I didnt measure, but I did ask a store owner in my neighborhood about something similar), more shelf space is required for a gallon bottle than 2 half gallons. the store owner puts less product at a lower price out for his customers. How does he win? Of course given the average family size, bli ayin hara, of the chalv yisroel consuming family, gallon sized containers makes a lot of sense from the consumer perspective.

    #1092267

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I disagree with every point apushatayid made in that post.”

    I have no desire to rehash an already closed thread.

    #1092268

    Redleg
    Participant

    DY The takana on gvinas akum is, as ypu say, separate from the takana on chalav akum. The reasoning for the takana is a six way machlokes. Only Rashi connects the the two takanas. The remaining reasons range from rennet shel Hekdash to gilui (Rabanu Tam’s shita.) The general consensus is the takana is against animal rennet from a non kosher (nevailah) animal. This is problematic as rennet form anywhere isn’t a food and is quite inedible. Nevertheless, the general practice is to follow the takana and only eat gvinas Yisroel. The existence of donkey cheese just reinforces my determination to obey the takana. Oddly, the fact that cheese made from donkey milk doesn’t have much bearing on C’Y. While other animals are milked for milk, horse milk or camel milk is even less available than donkey cheese 9except maybe camels milk in Dearborn)

    #1092269


    Participant

    Another problem with OU “chalav stam” is that the OU allows milk from cows which have had their abomasum pierced. If your posek holds that this makes the cow a treifa, OU chalav stam is just treif (because the cows that get pierced are more than 1/60).

    The “more than 1/60” figure is for the lifetime of the cows. If you hold that once the wound heals the cow is no longer a Treifah the amount is less than 1/60th.

    Modern milking machines are quite sophisticated. For a farm with multiple customers, They can be programmed to divert milk from a specific cow so that it won’t enter the Kosher production.

    #1092270

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Modern Milking machines cannot milk any animals except cows. Its almost impossible to mix milks from differnet animals

    So it very well might be that there is Donkey Cheese, but you have to get it very differently than cows milk cheese. The udder sizes are different and the pipes for the cows udders will not fit any other animal.

    To get Donkey milk you would need to buy a milking machine that milks donkey udders.

    #1092271

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, ????? ????? ?, ?.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14334&st=&pgnum=40&hilite=

    Are ulcers listed in the ???????

    #1092272

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you hold that once the wound heals the cow is no longer a Treifah

    Does anyone hold this way?

    #1092273

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    BTW, the OU calls it Chalav Stam. Also, in this article, they admit that it’s no longer R’ Moshe’s heter, but a different one (based on R’ Moshe’s heter). Not everyone agrees to it.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53256&st=&pgnum=84

    This is a misconception. Rav Moshe always allowed milk from dairies even without regulation by the farms (See Igros Moshe YD 1:49 for the concept of “Shelo Ba Lyad Yisrael)

    Some say there used to be chemical testing by the dairy that was able to identify the species of the animal the milk came from. If that is true, that was never needed. Also, the dairies used to have on site farms, where the inspectors can see the animals themselves.

    That is what has basically changed. The daires are generally not connected to the farms, but understand that acc. to Rav Moshe they never needed to be.

    We do not really need a new heter. Rav Moshe never maintained that the dairy inspectors had to figure out if the milk is from a cow or not. Rather, they had to make sure no non-kosher milk was added in.

    Today, the heter is only stronger than before. Besides the FDA at the dairy, there are state inspectors at the farms.

    #1092274

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Today, the heter is only stronger than before.

    According to the OU. According to the Nirbater Rov, in a speech he gave at an AKO conference several years ago, the heter is no longer valid. When I asked a different well known posek for his opinion, he told me (and asked not to be quoted), “You should be machmir”.

    #1092275

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Did he say why?

    It could be bec. of the DA cow issue, or maybe he held there needed to be a way for the inspectors to know at the dairy which species the milk came from.

    Acc. to Rav Moshe tz”l (except possibly the DA issue, but I heard that they asked this shayla to Rav Moshe while he was still alive), the heter is stronger than before.

    #1092276

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He didn’t say why. He said it in response to my bringing up the Nirbater Rov’s opiniin, so that is the implication.

    The DA issue came to the forefront after Rav Moshe was niftar, and I don’t think (but could be mistaken) that he was quoted as being mattir.

    Rav Dovid does apparently still hold that cholov stam is muttar mei’ikar hadin, so that would mean that he is meikil on both issues. My point is just that the heter applying today is not l’kulei alma, but there’s still whom to rely upon.

    #1092277

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    “Rav Dovid does apparently still hold that cholov stam is muttar mei’ikar hadin, so that would mean that he is meikil on both issues.”

    There is only one issue. I don’t exactly see how the situation became less to be somech on according to Rav Moshe tz”l besides the DA cow. Indeed, it has only gotten stronger on the inspection issue.

    #1092278

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know why you are dismissing out of hand something which some serious talmidei chachomim hold to be a problem.

    #1092279

    yitzy99
    Member

    “It would just make any spoilage issues worse.”

    Why does Chalav Yisrael have any spoilage issues?

    Why are stores able to sell gallon containers of Chalav Stam?

    “It doesnt make sense for the producers and sellers. As a general rule of thumb, the larger the size, the lower the unit cost.”

    By this logic there wouldn’t be gallon containers of Chalav Stam in stores.

    Yet we see many gallon containers of Chalav stam in stores.

    “Of course given the average family size, bli ayin hara, of the chalv yisroel consuming family, gallon sized containers makes a lot of sense from the consumer perspective.”

    A producer who produced gallon containers of CY could pick up market share by meeting the needs of many families.

    #1092280

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why does Chalav Yisrael have any spoilage issues?

    Bacteria.

    Personally, I buy smaller amounts more frequently during the summer, and very infrequently have spoilage. The point about gallon containers is valid, though. For some reason, probably handling, it has been observed that CY milk has more issues than CS. I don’t know if anyone ever did a real head to head comparison or it’s just a stereotype, but there is that perception. A gallon container will be more likely to spoil than one half gallon container bought after another, and even than two bought together, because it will spend more time unrefrigerated.

    #1092281

    Joseph
    Participant

    You shouldn’t be sure gallon size producers of CY milk will price it differently than half gallon sized bottles. They very well may price it about double the price of half gallon sized containers.

    #1092282

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, the few times I’ve seen gallon containers, the price was basically the same, perhaps ten cents less.

    #1092283

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    I checked with my kashrus professional friend and he said that the person is VERY incorrect. The reason is because nowadays “cultures and starter distillates are added to the cream in order to provide flavor, texture etc., not to mention to MAKE it into butter and those items ARE dairy and need to be CY.”

    #1092284

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    yitzy99,

    the reason you don’t find CY gallons is because of a law that regulates the price of a gallon of milk, which currently in NJ is somewhere LESS than $4 a gallon. that law doesn’t apply to half gallons so the CY companies can have you pay $2.79 per half gallon ($5.58 gallon) and make money that way.

    There is something in the law that allows you not to fall under the regulation IF you sell less than “X” amount of gallon containers which is why the “special” brands are priced high. If CY went to mostly gallons, they would fall into the regulations.

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