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I already addressed that question in my previous posts. If you look you will find an answer to it. And you still did not answer my question about how you would feel about thousands of Chinese coming into Yerushalayim in droves and putting up dragon symbols, mandarin signs, and roasted pork in their store fronts on every block.
charliehall, I responded to your post, are you going to respond to mine?
Thanks for the “compliment” ubiquitin, but Im not going to play this game with you.
I have addressed everything clearly in my previous posts that people can read and judge for themselves. Its a slippery slope going in a circle over and over again in these types of forums.
“There is not an easy answer and you cant do it for EVERY town, such as Brooklyn, since there has to be places for OTHER cultures and “looks” to grow also.
The problem is given US law its hard to preserve the look of ANY town, let alone every town. This is not antisemitism, its just an affection for ones own culture. There is a difference.
Much of New England for example has a certain look and feel going back to the revolutionary war that the local populace wish to maintain. This is not antisemitism.”
“Today Riverdale has eight Orthodox synagogues thanks to Big Government enforcing Fair Housing Laws.”
“””Thats great! But should the Germans and Irish have a place for them also? Where their culture and history can thrive as well? Or should everything be a free-for-all where every town is nothing but a mish-mash of everything?”””
There is a difference between a non-Jewish person not wanting the entire United States to look exactly like brooklyn 2015 and being antisemetic.
Did I miss something? Are the frum pushing to close the stores on Shabbos in Westhampton or they just don’t like the influx of frum because they don’t shop on Shabbos? I don’t agree that if they are pushing to close the stores, but the rest of the comments in that article sound anti-semitic.
“But should the Germans and Irish have a place for them also? Where their culture and history can thrive as well? Or should everything be a free-for-all where every town is nothing but a mish-mash of everything?”
And the problem with that is?
FWIW there are still identifiably Irish neighborhoods in the Bronx and Yonkers.
I happened to have a nice conversation yesterday with the non-Jewish owner of a kosher restaurant in a Jewish neighborhood that has become more and more orthodox over time. He had opened the restaurant 25 years ago as a non-kosher establishment but didn’t get a lot of business. Jews from the neighborhood would occasionally walk in and ask why he didn’t become kosher as his food looked appealing. After a few years of mediocre sales he went to the rabbi of the largest Orthodox synagogue in the area and asked if he could become kosher. He immediately agreed to close the restaurant on Shabat. A few months later he was kosher and he has had more business than he can handle for over 21 years! He also likes having Saturday off so he can spend time with his family and watch college football on television. 🙂
“The problem is given US law its hard to preserve the look of ANY town”
No, it isn’t. Zoning and architectural preservation laws allow that. Visit many small towns in New England, for example.
Now, if you are one of those right wing nutcases I grew up with who would usually follow the world “zoning” with the word “communist” you will think that that is a horrible thing, but most of America has gotten over this nonsense.
As we have observed, being on both sides of the equation depending on place and time, neighborhoods are constantly changing, and the newcomers think the place is getting better and the old times think the places is going downhill.And a lot of people whine about it. This is to be expected and no one should get all worked up about it.
“But should the Germans and Irish have a place for them also? Where their culture and history can thrive as well? Or should everything be a free-for-all where every town is nothing but a mish-mash of everything?”
“””And the problem with that is?”””
The problem with that is when you have a mish mash of everything the town loses its historic character and culture. Just like Israel would if millions of Chinese people moved in.
How can you compare ??????? ??? ????? to the Hamptons??
ubiquitin: “Though not sure how you would decide which neighborhoods get to maintain character and whichare forced to take in the undeseribles. BTW I was not being facetious.”
Thanks I appreciate that. Thats a good point and like I said there is not an easy answer. It would have to be a governing board that decides. My point was that this is what people really want, and they use the zoning laws to help as much as they can, but its not from antisemitism.
newbee -i could be very wrong but from the nature of your statements i really don’t get the impression you could care less about the things you are supporting, i think you are just enjoying the exchange.
not that there is something wrong with that…
DaasYochid: Because in their mind thats their culture and way of life they want to preserve.
There are many places in the US where families goes back hundreds of years in the same town.
Syag Lchochma, im not sure what you mean. I do care caalling people antisemitic on public forum when they are not antisemitic in my opinion. And I think it would also be great if the majority culture could protect themselves in CERTAIN cities and towns.
no, im with you on that. i meant all the chinese talk and historic character points.
Rich WASP culture? It’s by definition a culture of snobbishness and not wanting undesirables.
Either way, you really can’t compare it to ??????? ??? ?????.
I am saying they are not antisemitic, because they want this (cultural preservation). And we are no different. Come on, who doesn’t LOVE a block or town composed of all frum yidden.
When you walk home on shabbos you say hi to people, you look into every window and you see a frum family with the lights in front of every window on chanuka. Its geshmack.
Other cultures lehavdeel are the same. Its not a bad thing. Its not immoral for wanting it.
If there was a place with a historic church (I know of churches from the revolutionary war for example) and that area became more frum and the frum people wanted to remove the church.
Would it be anti-semitism for those who oppose the removal of this church
ZD, no.
Ubiquitin, correct, and to compare it to ??????? ??? ????? which was given to us by the ???”? is ridiculous.
“Rich WASP culture? It’s by definition a culture of snobbishness and not wanting undesirables.”
Im not talking about the rich people in the Hamptons, I dont know. Im talking about middle America, New England, upstate NY: most of the ones I have met are the nicest people, family values, pro-Israel. Righteous gentiles.
They’re not the ones trying to keep Yidden out.
“But before those hundreds of years those families arrived and changed the character of the town. Why isnt that a double standard?”
No they didn’t, do you know about the frontier? They created many of the towns. Native americans have RESERVATIONS to preserve their culture. Thats my point. Everyone wants a reservation to preserve their way of life.
I agree with you about the Hamptons, Im sure many of them are reformed and atheist Jews who just hate Judaism. I have seen the type many times.
At this point in time, do the reservations serve that purpose, or are they just vehicles to sell gambling and cigarettes without tax?
Im not talking about the rich people in the Hamptons, I dont know. Im talking about middle America, New England, upstate NY: most of the ones I have met are the nicest people, family values, pro-Israel. Righteous gentiles.
Presbyterians are one of the largest WASP groups in the US and support BDS and alternative lifestlyes
They are very different from Evangenlicals who are also wasps
So to you, this discussion is merely hypothetical?
DA: Thats their business if they want to destroy themselves. But you see the idea of granting a historic culture a certain amount of land and governing body to preserve said culture.
Thats basically what a shtettle was no? I believe Jews had the right to set their own dress code and certain rules within the shtettle. You cant do that today anymore. But I would not complain if orthodox Jews were given a plot of land in the US to set dress code and shabbos regulations and only allow orthodox shules within this land-area.
My understanding is that they weren’t given the reservations so that they can preserve their culture, but to give them the autonomy which was unjustly taken from them.
Autonomy to preserve their way of life.
That’s kind of what New Square and Kiryas Yoel are, but to the best of my knowledge, it can’t be official policy.
Autonomy to not be ruled by the invaders.
Well I disagree about the native americans, part of it was to preserve their way of life and traditions.
Exactly, and it would be geshmak if it could be official policy. The area of land within this square mile radius has certain halachos people must respect, such as dressing modestly. The amish people lehavdeel on their land have their own culture and rules. It would not be a bad thing. Its not hating other people. Its loving your own.
Saying you cant have an Eruv is not the same as saying you cant live there
Newbee, in theory it might be fine to establish communities geared towards particular cultures, but I believe the OP was referring to areas which were not originally established for that purpose, but the people who ended up living there now want to keep others different from them out.
ZD, the reason they are against the eruv is purely to keep out frum Yidden.
People in the hamptons are against all kinds of people .
If you arent rich and good looking they probably dont want you there
Newbee, the traditional way of life for native Americans the total opposite of reservation life. The western Plains Indians were hunters and followed the buffalo herds. The reservations they were forced to go live on were generally on poor land that settlers did not want and they destroyed their culture and way of life
I was referring more broadly to the OPs closing point regarding ALL place need to be a mish mash of everything, not this specific place. I agree with you about the Hamptons case.
Let me ask you, why do think the the people in the Hamptons really dont want frum Jews moving in? Is because
1) They dont like Hebrew letters and synagogues and the clothing frum people wear? They dont like walking around seeing people with black hats and tzizit?
2) They are worried it will increase traffic somehow?
3) They are worried Jews will cram 3 families into a single person home and ruin the ascetics of the town?
4) Its supernatural yezter-hara antisemitism
Im just trying to get into their mindset. Saying the stores will close on shabbos is obviously nonsense.
By #4, do you mean Esav sonei es Yaakov? I think it’s more than that. It’s also good old fashioned racism, whereby people dislike people who are different than them. That’s an unpleasant part of human nature, but not supernatural. There are also what people call “self-hating” Jews, which is mostly a guilty conscience dealt with through hatred.
Its not anti-semitism as the people most against the Eruv are also jews.
Usually non-jews dont care
ZD, is hatred of frum Jews acceptable? Who cares what it’s called?
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