Changing the Shidduch System

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  • #2146207
    lakewhut
    Participant

    If you aren’t rich or the “top bochur” who didn’t get a Shidduch right away from the parents, there needs to be a better way for those who are frum but been in the parsha for a few years. It shouldn’t be stigmatized for a guy to ask a girl out on her own, after a certain age.

    #2146239
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    The other way to do it is by turning DIRECTLY TO HASHEM for help to send you your zivug which we all know Is already waiting for you since before you were born.

    NOTHING BETTER THAN TURNING DIRECTLY TO THE TRUE SOURCE

    #2146240
    Reb Shlomo
    Participant

    I am 80 years old. Back in my day most Orthodox singles met on their own without the benefit of a Shadchan, myself included. Yes, it was proper to ask a girl out on her own. There was no shidduch crisis. Things were simple. I could not survive under today’s system.

    #2146249
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “There was no shidduch crisis [back in my day]. Things were simple. I could not survive under today’s system…

    Reb Sholomo: There still is no shidduch crisis other than the among those hysterical yidden who are determined to impose additional pressures and stress on young men and women who should work on their own timelines for pursuing their educational and professional goals, meeting their beschert and starting a family.

    #2146377
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    Somehow I get a niggeling feeling that this anonymous forum ain’t gonna change anything. You want to to do something constructive you need to get the people who signed on the cheirem for peshutu shel mikroh on your side. Maybe they will make a round table discussion or a panel of todays major gevirim and Frum therapists to talk about it by next Agudah Convention.
    Or maybe they won’t…….

    #2146381
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    If you want to change the shidduch system,
    or just understand why it fails so many people,
    then I suggest that you visit the web site of
    Chananya Weissman, then click on [ARTICLES],
    then scroll down to “The Shidduch World”.

    I sincerely hope that this helps Jewish singles.

    #2146387

    There was a shidduch crisis 60 years ago – it was Jews marrying other peoples. The alleged “shidduch crisis” is not about how to approach people, it is about rapid growth of the community, B’H, and thus, there are more boys than girls 3 years younger. Even without shadchanim, girls would want more mature chatanim, and boys would want younger kalos.

    I am thinking one of the problem of the current system is that there are many people who do this professionally that may disregard matches that are not advantageous for the shadchan. A solution is simple – try helping singles find a match through your own contacts.

    #2146417
    lakewhut
    Participant

    AAQ there are certainly shadchanim who’d rather put in the time to match couples from wealthy families – more gelt, more commission.

    #2146420
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    So we should lower a tznius standard? Get men and women to mingle instead of having intermediaries?

    See tiferes yisroel on the mishanh in r”h about the women congregating on yom kippur and tu b’av – he says it’s unthinkable that such practices would happen in the mainstream, and that this was for people who were struggling to find a shidduch.

    I have a better solution. Bochurim should have better middos and women should stop reading romance novels, and tossing away good shidduchim when they don’t automatically “feel ” sparks flying.

    People used to get married without even dating, and it worked just fine. Chasidim still do, and they have far fewer divorces than us litvishe who date. It can’t be all wiped away with “that’s because it’s a taboo” – what’s the proof of that?

    #2146421
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb shlomo, with all.due respect, a Ben Torah who grows up on torah alone will not feel comfortable approaching a young woman.

    #2146422
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Another hindrance to shidduchim is the fact that women who work for many years develop a career based persona, which is hard to form into a marriage union

    #2146426
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I would be very careful about making general statements off of your very very limited exposure/research. You might be choosing between lashon Hora and motzei shem rah.

    #2146429
    @fakenews
    Participant

    Lakewhut:
    I am not going to provide an opinion here, because I am not well enough informed on the topic.
    However, I will call out the fact that you seem to be carrying a grievance.
    The fact that your response to Always_Ask _Questions had nothing to do with their response and instead called out your perception of how certain shadchanim choose their clientele, is quite telling.
    How about you going and dedicating yourself to arranging Shidduchim exclusively between Klal Yisroel’s poor.
    While I don’t think any Shadchan ought to exclude the less affluent, it would be irresponsible towards their families were they to solely focus on them.

    #2146435
    lakewhut
    Participant

    The fewer divorces among the chasidim may be due to women feeling powerless.
    Fake news you also you’re not saying I’m wrong ok.

    #2146440
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Avira hates Eretz Yisrael. He doesn’t have a right to express his opinion here. The avira of eretz Yisrael is machkim, but apparently for some it just makes them coocoo

    #2146465
    huju
    Participant

    Back in Reb Shlomo’s day, there was no internet for people to publish their unfounded notions of what is going on in the world. Hence, no shidduch crisis. And, given the growth of the frum population, there was probably no actual shidduch crisis.

    Someone made a good point about the explosion of intermarriage that has been going on for 60 years. The internet has not helped to stop that.

    #2146483
    ujm
    Participant

    The fewer divorces among the chasidim may be due to their having traditional marriages the way it was done throughout Jewish history, without them updating to an American romantic fairytale “marriage”.

    Shimon hates Yiddishkeit. He doesn’t have a right to express his opinion here on Jewish topics.

    #2146529
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    lakewhut – you would need some evidence to prove that lower divorce rates among chasidim are due to divorce being taboo or that women feel powerless; it’s just a way to avoid the conclusion that you don’t like. Until such time, we should regard their methods as being effective and successful.

    #2146546
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Avira- even if he knew it was so and had lots of research, it’s not something you post here. You’ve done that ‘unilateral based on your vast knowledge declaration’ thing where you decide what’s real or true and then tell people they are wrong unless can bring the proof you trust from a person you trust and then you’ll decide if you even believe them. Are you inviting him to speak out against chasidim with proof? Are you aware that you are inviting halachically prohibited behavior?

    Let’s try this – I am aware of more than a handful of abused, berated and/or ignored women who are not divorced and won’t divorce. Some live parallel lives to their husband’s, some aren’t even on speaking terms, some sleep in the guest room, many live a gihenom of a life and are not divorced for various reasons.
    If I know that many women in my small circle of acquaintances, there must be thousands out there. Spoiler alert, I am close with someone who writes gittin, or doesn’t. There are.
    Wake up dude.

    #2146537
    lakewhut
    Participant

    An abusive marriage isn’t a marriage it’s trapping someone

    #2146539
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    shimon – quite the opposite, i love eretz yisroel, much more than the european hebrew nationalists who are fine with it being contaminated by sinfulness and tumah. I believe it should be pure and reserved for those who are fit to use it for its intended purpose, to be the gateway between heaven and earth, to be a conduit for shefa to come to the world through our mitzvos and torah learning.

    #2146535
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    syag, something tells me you wouldn’t have a problem with my statement that bochurim need to work on their middos. Obviously not everyone does, but I think it’s common knowledge that bad middos are a major hindrance in finding a shidduch, especially with boys who present themselves as being “my way or the highway.”

    It’s also common knowledge that women break off shidduchim more often than men. The reasons for this are many, but the influence of romance and fantasy-thinking has a lot to do with it.

    Women also have a picture in their mind from the time they’re young children of what their wedding and their husband will be like; you’ll see girls pretending to be kallos a lot, and that often stays with them.

    Boys don’t think much about marriage until they’re almost ready to start dating, and their list of requirements are a lot shorter.

    I don’t know what about this is lashon hora or motzish”ra

    #2146536
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I also know many a “top bochur” who remain single well into their late 20s and 30s. One boy I know, who’s phenomenal at learning, and has sterling middos, has an issue because he wants someone who fits his unique hashkofa, despite this not being a very important factor in raising a family or running a house.

    #2146566

    the shadchan goes to the war “with the army [s]he has”.

    What is usually the basis for proposed matches? Are shadachnim capable of evaluating middos? Are potentially abusive husbands matched to strong-fisted women?

    How do potential kallos and their families evaluate effect of learning on the bachur? Does someone in yeshiva gives objective feedback if someone comes late, takes other’s place in shul, etc or is it generic “he is a wonderful bochur” for everyone?

    #2146567
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “syag, something tells me you wouldn’t have a problem with my statement that bochurim need to work on their middos.”

    I have no problem with vague generalities that apply to everyone. that is correct.

    “but I think it’s common knowledge that bad middos are a major hindrance in finding a shidduch,

    common knowledge? really? that is exactly the kind of comment I cannot agree with. I will not make a sweeping negative comment about bochurim, let alone call it “common knowledge”.

    Here’s the deal. I keep harping on your comments because I believe you are unintentionally badmouthing jews, communities and presenting yourself as an authority on things. From your years of posts I gathered (not knowing if this is the reality or not) that you are a single male over twenty but closer to thirty (I’m pretty sure you said so yourself but I could be wrong).
    Based on that, you give these all knowing comments about women, marriages and what the desires are of women and what they do wrong etc. As a single male, your exposure to women is a sister, aunt, mom and whoever you get redt to. Beyond that it is just hear say and spewing imaginary assumptions.
    Hence my complaints about your comments on the failings of these Yidden. It is lashon hora and/or motzei shem rah to speak down on a group of jews. and to label it falsely as “common knmowledge” is sheker. This should concern you more than how many romance novels I have read (probably none. Not my thing).
    If you really are an ex MO member who left, as you say, in grammar school after an awful debate issue, then your world wide conclusions are based on a hundred? two hundred? women who probably are mostly locals at that. That’s hardly a statistically sound demographic. And in the requirement to be dan lkaf zchus (by the way) you are obligated to make kinder conclusions, not embellished.

    #2146570
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    AAQ – as someone who has previously mentioned that he has traded Torah values for higher education I can see why that would be your assumption. But as cutting as your assumption is, it is better than valuing a perspective spouse by checking their grade point average, attendance and monetary potential.

    #2146577
    Reb Shlomo
    Participant

    AviraDeArah A Bochur who is a Ben Torah must realize that the mitzvah of getting married and having children is a mitzvah just like learning Torah, wearing Tzitzis, and putting on Tefillin every day. The chiyuv is on him, not on his parents or his Rosh Yeshiva. Without a wife he can not fulfill this mitzvah. If asking a young woman for a date is what it takes as a step towards fulfilling this mitzvah he has to force himself to do it. Some mitzvahs are harder to fulfill than others.

    #2146580
    ujm
    Participant

    He doesn’t have to ask a woman. There are more appropriate and effective ways to accomplish the goal better, more efficiently and, most importantly, more Halachicly appropriately.

    #2146585
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    syag, there are marriage horror stories in every community; I asked for evidence, because the facts are that divorce is less common, so an equally weighted fact would be necessary to counter the logical conclusion to be drawn from that fact, namely that chasidim are more successful than others in this area.

    As for my grouping of ideas as “common sense” – you’re free to disagree. As for where I get my information from regarding women, it’s not assumptions, but I’m not a researcher either – ive been involved with enough people enough times to see patterns, and yes, our girls are more infleunced by non jewish culture than boys who sit and learn the whole day – are there boys who sit and learn who are influenced? sure, and there are many, many girls who have strong hashkofos, but the phenomenon is real.

    in addition, what do you think happens after a 19 year old leaves seminary and goes straight to college and work? the same thing that happens to a boy who does that after going for a year to israel after high school, and unless the girl or boy does something to fortify themselves, the influence is extremely difficult to avoid.

    #2146583
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    @ujm what makes you say that?

    #2146609

    > as someone who has previously mentioned that he has traded Torah values for higher education I can see why that would be your assumption.

    I am not sure what is the point of the above insult, but I am actually asking questions here, not making any assumptions. See question marks at the end of the sentences.

    #2146616

    Avira > what do you think happens after a 19 year old leaves seminary and goes straight to college and work? … unless the girl or boy does something to fortify themselves,

    By this time, B’H the young person had about 15 years of Jewish schooling. Should we expect that they are able to fortify themselves by this time (I presume parents, friends and community did not abandon them)? I would understand that there could be some difficult cases, but the majority should be able to withstand going to classes or work.

    There is a question why Yaakov needed to go to the yeshiva after learnign with his Father. The answer is that Shem was teaching how to live in a goyishe world. So, maybe those yeshivos whose graduates are not ready to face the world, should add such subjects.

    #2146618

    Avira > what do you think happens after a 19 year old leaves seminary and goes straight to college and work? … unless the girl or boy does something to fortify themselves,

    By this time, B’H the young person had about 15 years of Jewish schooling. Should we expect that they are able to fortify themselves by this time (I presume parents, friends and community did not abandon them)? I would understand that there could be some difficult cases, but the majority should be able to withstand going to classes or work.

    There is a question why Yaakov needed to go to the yeshiva after learning with his Father. The answer is that Shem was teaching how to live in a goyishe world. So, maybe those yeshivos whose graduates are not ready to face the world, should add such subjects.

    #2146625
    ujm
    Participant

    “By this time, B’H the young person had about 15 years of Jewish schooling. Should we expect that they are able to fortify themselves by this time (I presume parents, friends and community did not abandon them)?”

    Extremely foolish comment for multiple reasons. To take one, Yochanon Kohen Godol was the tzadik and Kohen Godol for 80 years when he became an apikorus tzeduki.

    But he was fortified, you say!

    #2146634

    ujm, we indeed bring a story of Yochanan as an extreme example, not as a typical case. We also have an educational system that learned from the previous times.

    #2146637
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    aaq – im talking facts on the ground. take a look at the kind of young people who are working/going to college and not yeshiva under 25. they’re people you would agree are not very religious, by and large. this has nothing to do with MO vs yeshivos – im talking about the products of both in this issue.

    #2146639
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb Shlomo, when do you think hishtadlus ends? Should a boy have to speak romantically? Should he have to compliment the girl on her appearance? Should he have to go to movies, if the woman he thinks is his bashert insists on going to one for a date?

    Hishtadlus cannot infringe on any other Jewish values, tznius being the obvious one. If something is a breach of tznius then it leaves the category of histadlus, and enters kochi ve’otzem yadi.

    #2146652
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ive been involved with enough people enough times to see patterns,
    you cannot have been around enough women to speak about them in general terms through anything but third, fourth party hearsay. Unless you are a fake or a hypocrite. I have yet to hear you walk back comments or even reconsider so I don’t expect you to come clean on any errors but can you at least stop talking like a researcher and stop presenting your mere observations/opinions as “common knowledge” and facts?

    AAQ – insult? what insult? I was just commenting on your import of secular education. Why would that be insulting?

    #2146658
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    syag, you don’t know much about me and my activities; i don’t understand why you are certain that I’m going off of 3rd hand accounts.

    As it happens to be, I work with single men, and on occasion, I work with the other side of a shidduch as well. Though I don’t do it very often, I’ve heard the same story over, and over again; he’s a great boy, has great middos, learns well, but “i didn’t feel anything”

    #2146659
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I don’t bother giving a shmuze to them; it doesn’t work. Instead I give other forms of advice; i tell the boy to do something surprising, and i feed him jokes, etc…, sometimes it works.

    #2146670
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I said I don’t know but that you have made it very clear that men should not be mixing with women. So if you are going to give over tons of factual data on women then you either are misleading people or not following your own rules.

    And by the way, “i didn’t feel anything” is what people say to a third party when they don’t want to tell you what they are thinking. To take it at face value is ridiculous.

    #2146672

    Avira > take a look at the kind of young people who are working/going to college and not yeshiva under 25. they’re people you would agree are not very religious, by and large.

    this is a good question. Are you looking at whole Jewish campus population? Then, yes. But it is not campus that made them less religious. The question is about observant people who go to college. I know quite a number who are observant, some are learning while in college, going to campus or community shuls. I did not meet people who came to campus and stop being observant because they heard something from the lecturers, although maybe I am just not in places where I could meet such. When I was in college some time ago, the campus Rav was of the opinion that kids are of certain condition before they come to campus, some are ready to go off-the derech and just waiting to get out of the house (he was dealing mostly with MO). Maybe you mean that in certain communities, the learners are respected and those who do not succeed go to college and thus are already vulnerable.

    again, my experience is biased to mostly seeing college-educated observant people, and not those who go there and do not come out well. What is your experience? I presume you see more of the input into the system.

    #2146673

    Syag > And by the way, “i didn’t feel anything” is what people say to a third party when they don’t want to tell you what they are thinking

    I agree here. I hear from people that they are under pressure not to sound too picky, so they are coming up with such answers. And also we should nit press ladies into marriage. They will be mostly the ones raising the kids looking, and behaving, like the gentleman they are planning to marry. They have a right to like those middos.

    #2146676

    Syag > I was just commenting on your import of secular education.

    I thought I explained my position at length. I consider secular education useful for a large part of Jewish community in order to find the right parnasa and be productive members of Jewish community and society in general. I think this is not against Torah values and there are authorities that hold same way. I am less confident that there is no risk sending kids to college and thus I am all for making college safe – Jewish/local/online colleges, or at least colleges with strong communities.

    #2146677
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Syag,i think the catch all phrase you’re referring to is ” the personalities didn’t match”

    Not feeling anything is a different story. It begins with the assumption that they’re supposed to feel something, which ia an error and has prevented many successful shidduchim.

    I also have no idea what talking to a woman I don’t know about a shidduch has to do with mixing genders. It’s not a social conversation.

    Perhaps assuming I’m single also grants a measure of ability in your mind to dismiss my observations on the nature and behavior of women?

    #2146684
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: Chazal give the story of Yochanon Kohen Godol as THE example EVERYONE needs to learn from. Namely, say Chazal, to NEVER think you’re “fortified” and safe, as you constantly pontificate.

    #2146727
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Are you aware of the meaning of catch all phrase? These are not data, they are polite excuses. For you to count them up and use them as census is meaningless.

    I don’t need a measure of ability in my mind to dismiss your observations. I am able to see what’s out there myself and I see how much it varies in different places. What I dismiss is your chutzpah in thinking you have enough knowledge of women to make negative conclusions and call them common knowledge. It is still motzei shem rah and you seem to avoid acknowledging that.

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