Chanuka II

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  • #592902

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I’m sure there will be more posts about this in the coming weeks, but I was wondering if anyone had any interesting questions about Chanukah. I’m currently finishing up the sugyas and would love some food for thought. All topics are welcome, though primarily I’m looking for a halacha related discussion.

    For jokes and Purim Torah (Chanuka Torah?) kindly refer to my other post.

    #944436

    not I
    Member

    hatzlacha on your second attempt!

    #944437

    real-brisker
    Member

    I have a halachic related question on the other post. If you have any info

    #944438

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Thanx ; )

    #944439

    blinky
    Participant

    yitayningwut- ok i feel bad your not getting a response so here is a question- how come by chanukah we are all into the nes being publicized and by purim its more of a hidden holiday?

    #944440

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    real-brisker-

    I am curious as to whether the Rov lit inside or outside. If he lit inside then perhaps pshat is as follows. Some want to say that once people started lighting inside the takana of lighting outside was ?????. A possible ??? to this is that many poskim throughout the ages seem to have lit inside even not ???? ?????. However, a glance at Rabbeinu Perachia (in the kovetz on Shabbos) shows that R’ Hai Gaon said that rain and wind are also considered like ??? ?????, since the ?? will almost definitely be extinguished if lit outside. You can find this halacha in the Ritva (chadashim) as well. Therefore, perhaps the Brisker Rov, who was lighting in a safe neighborhood, wanted to show that the reason he was lighting inside was not because the original takanah was ?????, but because wind and rain are also considered like ??? ?????. Therefore he demonstrated this by taking his umbrella with him. And if he lit outside, I don’t think I would have a pshat other than to say he must have been worried it was going to rain.

    #944441

    WIY
    Member

    Blinky

    Because each story came about in a different way. The Nes Chanukah was an open NES no denying it so we celebrate it by publicing the NES. Purim on the other hand appeared to be al pi derech hateva there were no open Nisim and Hashems name isn’t even mentioned in the Megillah so there’s no inyan of Parsumei Nisa to publicize the Neis.

    #944442

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    blinky-

    I’m not sure what you mean, that Purim is a hidden holiday. In Lakewood it’s not so hidden…

    #944443

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    A. Does one have to make hamotzi on a shiur kvieas seuda of jelly donuts, or is it understood that on chanuka people eat a shiur kvieas seudah of donuts as a snack? Would that make a difference? (Assume they are not fried, or assume that frying has a din of baking)

    B. If one lights a ner the first night, with only one day of oil, and it miraculously burns for 8 days, and he had daas to be yotzei all 8 mitzvos, is he yotzei? Why not?

    C. If one does not know which night it is, and he lights twice, once for each possible night, with daas each time for one, is he yotzei?

    D. Same question, but it may have been friday night. (He doesn’t know if it is friday night or thursday night.)

    E. If one does not know if it is friday night or motzaei shabbos, but either way it is chanuka; is he allowed to light bein hashmashos?

    F. Suppose chanuka starts on tuesday, and one is confused whether today is tuesday and therefore chanuka, or friday and not chanuka. He lit candles on condition that if it is friday they are for shabbos, and if it is tuesday, they are for chanuka.

    1. It is friday, it he yotzei shabbos candles?

    2. It is tuesday, is he yotzei chanuka candles.

    G. If one always lights candles in his doorway the entire year, does he need to do anything different on chanuka?

    H. Same question, but the entire year, he even has daas that it is for the mitzva of chanuka, how should he have daas on chanuka?

    #944444

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa-

    You’re the man! I have to go to seder so I can’t answer till later, but you’ve really given me what to work with. Thanx.

    #944445

    minyan gal
    Member

    “how come by chanukah we are all into the nes being publicized and by purim its more of a hidden holiday? “

    I blame it all on Hallmark. When I was a kid we celebrated Chanukah but the rest of the world really didn’t know or pay attention. Then Hallmark and the other card companies saw that there was a profit to be made and suddenly mass merchandisers see Chanukah as the Jewish Xmas – mostly because of the dates being so close. The press now loves the holiday as well and are forever publishing recipes and menu ideas for Chanukah. Nobody has tipped these companies off about Purim – yet. Also, most people pick up costumes at this time of year for half price, so there isn’t a mad dash for them in Feb/March. Believe me, if the costume manufacturers thought they could make a buck putting up costume displays in WalMart at Purim, they would do it. I also blame Hallmark for making Hallowe’en so important. I recently read that more people decorate their homes and yards for Hallowe’en than for Xmas. This is all recent – it didn’t happen 25 years ago. Also, they turned St. Paddy’s day into a big deal – for everyone, not just the Irish. Purim’s turn is just around the corner.

    #944446

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You like? Ok, here goes:

    1. Are you yotzei with stolen oil?

    Assuming you are not;

    1b Reuven lights with oil that he thinks he stole from Shimon, but it is really Reuven’s oil, is Reuven yotzei?

    1c Suppose he knows that you are not yotzei with stolen oil, but he has daas to be yotzei anyway.

    1d Suppose he is a shaliach of Shimon to light, and he thinks it is Shimon’s oil but it is his own, is he stealing his own oil? Is shimon yotzei? Must reuven pay himself?

    #944447

    Sister Bear
    Member

    lets say you’re having a Chanuka party somewhere and it wouldn’t be feasible to go home and light before. Can the father of the house you are going to be yotzei for around 50 girls? Or do they each have to light?

    #944448

    WIY
    Member

    Sister Bear

    If one is a guest at someone’s house (and staying there overnight), one should give the owner a small amount of money to buy a portion in their candles and one may fulfil the obligation through the owner. Alternatively the guest may light his own Menorah.

    In exceptional circumstances one may light one and a quarter hours before sunset with a blessing. (However one should be careful to put in more oil or to use longer candles). If possible it is better to appoint an agent to light candles at the correct time, than to light early.

    If one forgot or was not able to light at the correct time, one may light as long as people are still awake in the house in which one is lighting. (Your house)

    #944449

    oomis
    Participant

    “You like? Ok, here goes:

    1. Are you yotzei with stolen oil?

    Assuming you are not;

    1b Reuven lights with oil that he thinks he stole from Shimon, but it is really Reuven’s oil, is Reuven yotzei?

    1c Suppose he knows that you are not yotzei with stolen oil, but he has daas to be yotzei anyway.

    1d Suppose he is a shaliach of Shimon to light, and he thinks it is Shimon’s oil but it is his own, is he stealing his own oil? Is shimon yotzei? Must reuven pay himself? “

    He is Yotzei on lighting (becuase it really was his own property), and oveir in hirhur to commit a crime (thinking it was Shimon’s). The kavanah is part of it.

    #944450

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oomis:

    Yes, but if he knows that you are not yotzei with stolen oil, and he thinks it is stolen, so he thinks he is not being yotzei, so he thinks he is being ridiculous in having daas to be yotzei, so does he really have kavana?

    #944451

    real-brisker
    Member

    yit – Thanks for the info, btw yes we light outside. But that does not explain for why we are noheg to take out the umbrella. I dont think it has anything to do with rain.

    #944452

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa-

    I left out your first question for now because it is not a question limited to Chanuka, but maybe I’ll get back to it later. Anyway, here goes.

    If one lights a ner the first night, with only one day of oil, and it miraculously burns for 8 days, and he had daas to be yotzei all 8 mitzvos, is he yotzei? Why not?

    IMHO, No.

    This one was a real brain teaser.

    If one does not know which night it is, and he lights twice, once for each possible night, with daas each time for one, is he yotzei?

    Same question, but it may have been friday night. (He doesn’t know if it is friday night or thursday night.)

    If one does not know if it is friday night or motzaei shabbos, but either way it is chanuka; is he allowed to light bein hashmashos?

    No way!

    Suppose chanuka starts on tuesday, and one is confused whether today is tuesday and therefore chanuka, or friday and not chanuka. He lit candles on condition that if it is friday they are for shabbos, and if it is tuesday, they are for chanuka.

    1. It is friday, it he yotzei shabbos candles?

    2. It is tuesday, is he yotzei chanuka candles.

    Great question! I think the answer is:

    1. No.

    2. Yes.

    If one always lights candles in his doorway the entire year, does he need to do anything different on chanuka?

    Same question, but the entire year, he even has daas that it is for the mitzva of chanuka, how should he have daas on chanuka?

    As for your second set of questions, I want to look over the sugya in Lulav Hagazul. Iy”h I’ll have answers after Shabbos.

    #944453

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Wow! I’m impressed. I remembered that when I was learning for smicha the best questions were the absurd ones. (May one tovel in the gulf oil spill? Yes)

    As far as the thursday/friday question; I meant that he lit at night so he may have been mechalel shabbos.

    Also, the bein hashmashos question; I was wondering if he was able to light since it is a mitzva and bein hashmashos is a safek.

    #944454

    twisted
    Participant

    Popa bar: A)Refer to pizza thread, and also Star K has a nice distillation of pas haba bekisnin

    B) no, not ktakannas hachamim, that each day has a hiyuv

    hadlaka

    C)not knowing which day. You are yotze with one candle,

    so that is preferable to lighting the wrong number.

    E) bein hasmoshos; Why would you do a drabanan aseh

    and violate a safek lav d’oraita?

    #944455

    twisted
    Participant

    Minyan Gal: Also possibly causal is the Zionist Entity ( may it prosper and be well)took it mistakenly as a secular militaristic holiday, and imagined themselves to be the new Maccabees. The old Macabees might have voiced some protest about that.

    Now tachlis: If you don’t mind decorating your sukkah with tinsel, flashing colored lights and glass balls, the stuff marketed to the hoi poloi is really dirt cheap. You just have to buy it the year before. Same with Halloween if you like orange/black/ purple themes.

    #944456

    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    Regarding Pirsumei Nisah on Chanukah but not Purim, this in incorrect. We do have Pirsumei Nisah on Purim, that is why the ikkar takanah was at day when people are around. The chiyuv at night was a later takanah.

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