character vs policy Which is more important?

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  • #1916154
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Common- if you are more focused on speaking than responding it is a feasible technique. Not exclusive to him of course but does prove the point.

    #1916242
    Slimshim1
    Participant

    At everyone, if you know Halacha, what Clinton did , is not adultery. Not that it matters in this argument. I didn’t vote for him.
    @health its ironic you call yourself ‘health’, overcoming addiction is one of the greatest accomplishments a person can have. Same with George w bush.
    I also never said I’m voting for Biden. I’m certainly not using the Torah to tell us to do so.
    I truly believe that Trump is Fanning the flames of Amalek and it will get more intense if he gets voted in.
    By the way he just essentially opened the door to violence in PA he’s sick.

    #1916246
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    Syag, what a lark. Your name is hypocrisy and your statements are nonsense. Clinton was the most self serving president? Clinton this and Clinton that. Did you forget Clinton left office about 20 years ago.

    I guess it must be some luxury to live in an world from 20 years ago. The rest of us have to live in reality, where the most self serving person to ever be president is up for reelection tomorrow (not Clinton).

    Biden wins in the character department that much is clear.

    As to policy, we can debate that, but frankly why bother. You are as partisan in your comments as anyone I have ever seen, so little reason to think there is any debate with you, rather just a stating of opinions (and in your case you state opinions as facts, which is just annoying and makes having a discussion frustrating).

    #1916301
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Well hi! Nice to meet someone who registers just to yell at me. As if I’m the only trump supporter worth responding to. What an honor!
    Im assung your ears are plugged like everyone else but my clinton response was to people who make dumb statements about yrump being the most *** ever, or the only one ever who ***. If you wanna hate on him, feel free, there’s plenty to say but ain chodosh tachas hashemesh.

    And speaking of misfitting screennames… good choic👍🏻

    #1916308
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Can someone explain to me how Trump gets compared to Avraham, who came on his own to recognize Hashen and showed caring for every human being even pleading for Sedom, compared to Trump who contributed to death of 230,000 Americans and does not care about peoples economic suffering?

    #1916319
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Should be above Hashem.

    #1916320
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When it comes to abortion or same gender relationships there is an option of not follow it, but the one contrubutes to the deaths of more than 230,000 people and wanting to fire who wants to stop it, rather advocatiing the stupid idea of herd immunity which will kill an enornous more peole and violating the principle of the Torah, pikuach nefesh supersedes everything, violates the prohibition of lo saamod al dam reacha and he not be voted for.

    #1916321
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Reb Eliez, I’m still at a loss to understand your positions on Covid. The original projections called for over 2 million deaths. The President in February closed our borders to China and Europe., ramped up production of ventilators, set up Fauci’s commission and established whirlwind process for a vaccine. Remember, while this was going on, what were the Democrats doing? Distracting the country with the impeachment hearings. Democratic senators were ignoring Covid Covid hearings to attend impeachment hearings. Biden was against closing the borders and Pelosi was encouraging people to party in Chinatown and Cuomo as late as mid MARCH was still telling people not to over react . Unlike Trump, Cuomo is directly responsible for 10000 nursing home deaths. He forced nursing homes to take Covid patients while a hospital ship and a hospital built inside the Javits Center , both provided by Trump, sat empty.

    So, tell me what Biden would have done different.

    #1916343
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    AJ – you’re so silly! Of course Trump is responsible for all 230,00 deaths! The absolute proof for this is the 0 death count in all the other countries of the world where trump is not in charge. Duh!

    #1916422
    rational
    Participant

    I have to support Syag in this discussion.
    The fact that Clinton served decades ago is irrelevant. He has been a very prominent figure in American politics since he was President, and his, Biden’s, and all others morality cannot be ignored if one cares about the morality of public officials. I say that anyone who chooses a President this time around based on morality has twisted himself into a pretzel. Good luck undoing it.

    #1916435
    Health
    Participant

    ENS -“Biden wins in the character department that much is clear.”

    LOL! You mean s/o who Abuses a Young Girl in his Senate office is A-OK?
    How about s/o who threatens to hold back US money from Ukraine, unless they Fire the Prosecutor investigating Bursima?
    How about being a Partner with Commy China?
    You Sure have a Different opinion, than Most People, what a Decent Character is!

    #1916448
    KGN
    Participant

    If a the world’s most politically powerful man eats like a dog but is good to the Hebrew nation, then how is he bad? If he keeps the 7 Noahide Laws but interrupts people to call them a “liar”, is he a bad person?

    #1916457
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @syag – not going to respond directly to your points. They pop up all over the place here and they just make so many assumptions that people should see through. Once again you bring up Bill Clinton, which frankly, I suspect your main source of info on him has been Hannity and Limbaugh, two people who have defended themselves form libel suits by claiming to be entertainers and not presenting facts. Keep it up. How bitter does someone need to be to still live in the world from 20+ years ago. Just remember the vote today is between Biden and Trump, not Clinton.

    @Health – You make a number of claims. I can respond to each of them but will just respond to your Ukraine one, as it illustrates the lies you and, I think, all Trump supporters have bought into. In Jewish tradition it is taught that Hashem hates lies so maybe you should think twice before spreading them.

    The actions Joe Biden took with Ukraine, with withholding the money so they should fire the prosecutor, was 100% US policy at the time and was supported by other countries the US was working with. He did what he was supposed to and regardless of what conspiracy you want to make out of this, his actions were clearly proper. There was no crime or improper action here. If you think there was, show your evidence. Hannity or some other conspiracy theorist spreading lies is not evidence.

    If you can persist in spreading this ridiculous lie I see no reason to take much of anything you say seriously..

    #1916463
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Hi mr emes!!
    Thanks for the laugh! I brought up clinton “again”? See, it’s called responding. You commented on my bringing up Clinton, I explained why i did, and then you ponder my bringing it up “again”. (Woops! Just did it again!)
    Second – i don’t listen to radio or read/watch non jewish news so… I guess this emes thing isn’t working out too well for ya.

    No comment on the rest, had to stop reading to respond. And asuming it was trash talk I’m in no rush to revisit. I guess I’ll just have to figure out which former poster loves me enough to have actually made a new account just to put me down.

    All the best!
    Syag

    #1916496
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    “Second – i don’t listen to radio or read/watch non jewish news so… I guess this emes thing isn’t working out too well for ya.”

    This is too funny… lol…

    And where do you think all the “Jewish” news sources get their news from. Basically, you are just regurgitating whatever Hannity says. Like him, you assume your opinions are accepted as facts. They are not.

    But yet again, bring up Clinton. Just a reminder he is out of office about 20 years ago. But, I see, it was first “common saychel” and then “syag” who both felt a need to bring up Clinton.

    You were not responding to anyone about Clinton, rather go back and read the comments you brought up Clinton. Kind of interesting this fascination you have with Clinton, it is like you forgot that we had 8 years of Bush, then 8 years of Obama, and now almost 4 years of Trump.

    Maybe time to move on and stop living 22 years ago (number of years the impeachment was). Speaks volumes about your strong partisanship. Nothing about Clinton. You know, when I think back on Clinton, it makes me sad, as when I was younger I used to listen to Hannity and only partisan news sources, like you, and as a result I grew up believing lies that a minimal effort to get the facts would have shown to be lies. It was only after Trump came to office and his cheer of lock her up began to bother me that I actually went and started looking up the details behind all these supposed crimes Clinton was engaged in. The conclusion I reached, was that I had been lied to and the crimes were just conspiracies concocted by Hannity and Limbaugh and nothing more.

    Maybe time you stop posting so much drivel and go make the effort to see the sources where those telling you lies got their info from and see if the facts support those conclusions. I have yet, ever in my life, to have met a person who made an honest effort who still believes the lies of Hannity and Limbaugh. Entertainers who themselves admit their shows are not about presenting factual information. Rather, what I see, is people like you, who make no effort to see the truth from the lies and then go posting and talking making believe you are taking the high-road because you so dearly believe the lies you have absorbed.

    Like the famous statement syag lchochma shtika, your comments have shown that rather than a thinking person who makes the effort to get the facts you just repeat in your own way the lies you have been told. Maybe take your screen name to heart.

    #1916660
    Health
    Participant

    ENS -“The actions Joe Biden took with Ukraine, with withholding the money so they should fire the prosecutor, was 100% US policy at the time”
    So what you’re saying is that the responsibility lies with Pres. Obama. Fine with me but for some reason the Congress only Impeached Trump and Not Obama. It shows that the DemonCrat Party follows the law only when it comes to Republicans.

    #1916698
    por
    Participant

    I don’t understand why discussions like this ignore all the solid Republican conservatives, Bush, Romney, Bolton, Tillerson, etc., some of whom have worked closely with Trump and who feel that Biden is clearly the lesser of the evils. These are people who are concerned with results, who probably find it very hard to endorse a Democrat, but still feel that Trump is a clear and present danger. Why don’t we listen to their opinions?

    #1916741
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @Health, very good so you realize both under Obama and under Trump money was withheld from Ukraine.

    The key difference was in the objective of why they each withheld the money. One did it in accordance with proper US policy the other (Trump) did it for personal benefit. It might surprise you, but a President using his office and demanding investigations into political opponents is not proper US policy, rather that is something that stinks of autocracy and abuse of power. I thought this was pretty clear since the days Nixon was in office.

    #1916776
    Health
    Participant

    ENS -“One did it in accordance with proper US policy”

    Which policy was that? You’re saying Obama told Biden to withhold $ from Ukraine, until they Fired their Prosecutor?!?
    This is the First Made Up Story that I’ve ever heard like this.

    #1916818
    huju
    Participant

    You cannot evaluate a candidate separately on policy vs. character. If a candidate has bad character, his/her policy proposals are malleable and can be changed by undue influence like money under the table or blackmail. And unexpected developments will require a candidate, when elected, to make new policy decisions. With bad character, the interests of the public is more likely to be overlooked when new issues, new information, or new technology emerge.

    #1916982
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @health, you can read the articles written in plenty of major papers at the time (when the guy was fired) which consistently support that firing this prosecutor was a major goal of the US and other countries donating money to Ukraine. If you think Obama was not aware of what Biden was doing you are simply in denial.

    This is such a non-issue that you bringing it up is simply a poor reflection of any ability by you to separate fact from conspiracy.

    Trump, withheld money and wanted Ukraine to announce an investigation into Biden in order to hurt Biden’s election chances. That is corruption. Seems like Trump understood that Biden could beat him in an election. One thing Trump got right!

    #1917098
    Health
    Participant

    ENS -“If you think Obama was not aware of what Biden was doing you are simply in denial. Trump, withheld money and wanted Ukraine to announce an investigation into Biden in order to hurt Biden’s election chances.”

    Typical Democrat.
    When Obama & Biden withheld money from Ukraine, it’s A-OK.
    When Trump did it, he was (among other things) Impeached.
    From Above -“It shows that the DemonCrat Party follows the law – only when it comes to Republicans.”

    #1917138
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @Health, intelligence is being able to keep multiple points in mind at once so you can connect the dots. Arguing this with you is pointless, if you are unable to keep multiple points in your mind at once.

    Going back to the questions originally asked…

    As to character… Just look at the two of them. Joe Biden, not tweeting crazy stuff claiming the election is being stolen or going to court. Trump on the other hand saying an election is being stolen via fraud and making up all sorts of fake stuff. Have you read comments from Trump supporters on Brietbart and other extremist sites? You have people talking about committing violence in response. So when you say character or policy, what about Trump’s lies potentially leading to radicalized right-wing extremists who are willing to commit deadly violence (remember Oklahoma City, it was a white right-wing nut). I sure hope your inevitable response about how this is just fear-mongering is correct, but I fear we will be dealing with right-wing extremists willing to use violence for the next decade or two as a result of Trump’s destabilizing actions in response to the election.

    #1917155
    jackk
    Participant

    This tweet is all you need to know about the character of right wing radio talk show hosts.

    Mark Levin:
    REMINDER TO THE REPUBLICAN STATE LEGISLATURES, YOU HAVE THE FINAL SAY OVER THE CHOOSING OF ELECTORS, NOT ANY BOARD OF ELECTIONS, SECRETARY OF STATE, GOVERNOR, OR EVEN COURT. YOU HAVE THE FINAL SAY — ARTICLE II OF THE FED CONSTITUTION. SO, GET READY TO DO YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY
    12:43 PM · Nov 5, 2020·Twitter for Android

    Shows a great deal about their totally fake patriotism and fake belief in democracy.

    #1917162
    jackk
    Participant

    Here we have the President of the US showing off his great patriotism and sterling character.

    The Trump campaign released a statement Thursday, saying:

    “IF YOU COUNT THE LEGAL VOTES, I EASILY WIN THE ELECTION! IF YOU COUNT THE ILLEGAL AND LATE VOTES, THEY CAN STEAL THE ELECTION FROM US!”

    #1917170
    Health
    Participant

    ENS -“Joe Biden, not tweeting crazy stuff claiming the election is being stolen or going to court.”

    That’s because they’re STEALING it for him.
    I also really didn’t think those accusations were True.
    But I just saw a video from the Trump supporters that they are Filing a Federal law Suit in Nevada.
    Two people on the Video testified about irregularities that happened to them.
    It’s really TRUE.
    I always knew that the Libs would Turn our Country into a Third-World Country, but I didn’t think it would happen so SOON!
    Stop Living in Some Sort of Dream World.
    Look at Russia – they more or less Abandoned Communism!

    #1917456
    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor,
    1. I do not think that he has done any of the four avodot to himself.
    2. Adultery is only with a married woman. Moreover, if she is not Jewish the minute she walks out she is considered divorced. As for gilui arayot, for a ben Noach there are only six. He certainly has not been with a man or a prohibited (to a ben Noach) relative.
    3. Using bad language is not birkat Hashem. He would have to say something along the lines of “Yossi should whack Yossi”).
    4. His COVID policies, if wrong are at most gramma.
    5. You can consider whatever you like to be stealing. That doesn’t mean that the Halacha does.

    Reb Eliezer, that statement of the Akeidas is obviously lashon guzma. This is very common. For example, Chazal say that embarrassing someone in public is like killing him but no one suggests that a person who does it is chayav skila.

    Yytz, a ben Noach can be executed for violating any of his mitzvot. The king can also execute anyone who violates one of his decrees. Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 2:8) says even house arrest or making an illegal turn. He can certainly have people locked up. What about Kamala Harris? She was severely reprimanded by a judge for her behavior as a prosecutor.

    #1917550
    yytz
    Participant

    Avi K: Trump has been credibly and publicly accused of sexual assault by over 20 women. As in the case of Bill Cosby, when you have these many allegations, there is little change they are false. Biden and Harris may have had some misconduct but it’s nothing compared to Trump’s history.

    Noahides or the king may technically be allowed to use the death penalty for anything (if necessary to perfect the world) but of course the ideal is the Torah system with all its procedural safeguards and restrictions, which execution in only rare circumstances, and according to one opinion in the Gemara, only once in 70 years. Many countries in the world have extremely low crime rates (and low incarceration rates!) and no death penalty, so experience shows it’s not necessary.

    #1917577
    Slimshim1
    Participant

    The fraudulent voters did magic. They lied and stole votes from president Trump but for senators and congressman they were ok voting republican. lol
    Even republican politicians are on Fox News saying that there is no evidence of fraud that can overturn the election. McConnell and Graham are some of them.
    He will not be president. He has no hold over anyone anymore. They finally feel like the chokehold is gone. Every day more and more will turn against him. His base isn’t even out protesting. They know what nonsense this is.
    As for the uneducated and blind YWN Trump supporters, have fun wasting the next few months following the nonsense that will come of nothing.

    #1917589
    Slimshim1
    Participant

    I just heard Biden speak. What a mentsch. He has gratitude. Grace. Empathy. Love and care. He is a religious man who has maintained his faith through tragedy. I have a lot of hope for our communities and country. I look forward to the future Mishebairach for our new president.

    #1917624
    Health
    Participant

    Yytz -“Trump has been credibly and publicly accused of sexual assault by over 20 women…
    Noahides or the king may technically be allowed to use the death penalty for anything (if necessary to perfect the world) but of course the ideal is the Torah system with all its procedural safeguards and restrictions, which execution in only rare circumstances, and according to one opinion in the Gemara, only once in 70 years”
    Avi K is absolutely Right!
    Did you ever learn in a Yeshiva?
    edited 

    #1917886
    yytz
    Participant

    So according to you, Health, every Yeshivah teaches that Noahides not only can, but should, use the death penalty for every single possible thing?

    Fortunately you’re wrong. Rabbis today have a variety of opinions about whether and how much the death penalty should be used by non-Jews today.

    Health, what would you want the government to do to Donald Trump if it were your daughters he assaulted?

    #1917900
    Health
    Participant

    Yytz -“Fortunately you’re wrong. Rabbis today have a variety of opinions about whether and how much the death penalty should be used by non-Jews today”

    I’m Not wrong!
    I’m just quoting the Torah/Halacha.
    Doesn’t mean that there aren’t Rabbonom that don’t give Heterim.
    Do you know the difference between a Heter & Halacha?!?

    “Health, what would you want the government to do to Donald Trump if it were your daughters he assaulted?””

    That’s fine.
    I could use some of his $.

    #1917967
    smerel
    Participant

    The people who say they oppose Trump because of his bad influence don’t seem to grasp how much they are being influenced by a media that is very hostile to Torah and it’s values.

    The media is drilling into people’s heads for the past five years about how bad Trump so that is their one dimensional perspective of him.

    If everything about Trump as a person was the same but he was on the Democratic side of the equation and Mike Pence (from the most moral of all people in American politics today) was on the Republican side , the media and the people lecturing to us about how terrible Trump is now would all be enthusiastically supporting him instead.

    #1917995
    Slimshim1
    Participant

    @smerel “If everything about Trump as a person was the same but he was on the Democratic side of the equation and Mike Pence (from the most moral of all people in American politics today) was on the Republican side , the media and the people lecturing to us about how terrible Trump is now would all be enthusiastically supporting him instead.”

    I can’t speak for everyone, but for me and many of my associates, this is absolutely false. To explain and also respond to the idea that it’s the media making Trump look bad; no one has to say anything. He demonstrates all of his bad behavior himself! He’s a bully. A liar. A pervert. Self serving. Does not admit wrong. Doesn’t apologize. He mocks anyone that disagrees. He has little or no empathy. He has fired people for doing their job. Just about all his friends have been put in jail. Over 100,000 new cases of Covid have hit this country daily this past week. He is playing golf. Again, he has no empathy at all. So to answer your question, if he was a democrat (which arguably he was when he donated a ton of money to the Clintons and other democratic candidates), I would never ever vote for someone like him. I have voted both democrat and republican over the last 8 elections that I have been able to vote. I would reverse your logic and say that it is you who have been influenced by the media.

    #1918155
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @smerel – the media is at fault? All I need to look at is Trump’s twitter account to consider him a lowlife. You don’t get to create a movement chanting lock her up and spending your time insulting people left and right and then say well it is the media as to why you think bad of me.

    Trump brings out the worst middos in his supporters and unfortunately this is clear when you are around otherwise fine yidden who suddenly talk with arrogance, curses, and wishing violence on others. I hear this talk form wealthy and poor yidden. It is disgusting and disgraceful.

    For all you claim to care about the Torah and think that Trump somehow stands for values advocated by the Torah, you are willing to conveniently ignore other values that the Torah used to stand for. In any case, voting in an election, if your objective is to enforce rules on others, clearly is not consistent with our tradition. You are in galus! What business do you have telling others what laws they must live by? If you claim to be doing this in the name of your religion, you would be better served going to your basement and praying for moshiach to come where you can have dominion again. On the other hand, darchei shalom is an overriding concern and that is perhaps the overriding concern you should be voting based on.

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