Charaidim

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  • #1995339
    BenchKvatcher
    Participant

    Should I become Charaidy?

    #1995356
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Please don’t

    #1995367
    ujm
    Participant

    Are you up to the lofty task?

    #1995370
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Know what you getting into!

    #1995372
    rational
    Participant

    after me. you may have to wait a bit.

    #1995360
    akuperma
    Participant

    You don’t decide. It happens. You get used to taking Torah and Mitsvos seriously, and one day you realize you don’t really give a hoot about the outside world, since in the long run Torah and Mitsvos matter, and the outside world amounts to no more than a pile of dust.

    #1995392
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    What exactly is Charedi? I know what it is but what is it really? Seems like an artificial invention. My ancestors didn’t call themselves Charedim.

    #1995404
    ujm
    Participant

    YO: A Chareidi is simply a Jew who follows Judaism as the Torah meant it, in full without looking for compromises.

    In other words, a default practicing Jew.

    The name was given to them by outsiders; they didn’t assume it for themselves. Much like Orthodox, another term imposed by outsiders who broke off from normative Judaism default Judaism and gave a name to those who simply continued following the Torah like their ancestors.

    300 years ago those called this today would’ve simply been called Jewish.

    #1995415
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Charedi usually means that you go lechumra no matter who says its permissible. Like cholov yisrael for example. When really companies are ok. Eruv is ok when its an emergency. Short jackets ,fedoras,wristwatches, short sleeve shirts,shaving,a chupp and much much more.

    #1995472
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Benephraim, most poskim (Baer Hetev 345,8) including the RMA pasken that currently there is no reshus harabim min Hatorah, so rely on the Eiruv.

    #1995480
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sounds trollish

    #1995481
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    “Should I become Charaidy?”
    No become a troll instead its much more fun

    #1995482
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Going Lechumra in everything is not a maala. It been actually be a spit in the face of one’s ancestors who were not noheg like that. Or it may actually be asur. Sometimes one should not be machmir.

    #1995484
    besod emuna
    Participant

    The Mesoric lineage is Torah Judaism, Perushim (breakoff: Tzedukim), Rabbinic Judaism (breakoff: Karaites), Orthodox (breakoff: Reform), Chareidim (breakoff: MO).

    #1995502
    Lostspark
    Participant

    So you’re asking: should I begin acting like a proper yid?

    #1995576
    ari-free
    Participant

    Charedim usually don’t believe in using the internet so we will have to miss you here… it’s a serious thing. My cousin is charedi and hardly even uses a kosher phone because he is learning all the time

    #1995618
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I actually think MO preceded Charedi. So in that sense, Charedi is the breakoff. I guarantee that a massive percentage of the families of people in Lakewood, for example, were not Charedi a couple of generation ago. Maybe not even MO….

    #1995678
    musser zoger
    Participant

    Wait until black hats go on sale. You needvone for chol and one for Shabbos and a beat up one for when it rains.

    #1995679
    musser zoger
    Participant

    Wait until black hats go on sale. You need one for chol and one for Shabbos and a beat up one for when it rains.

    #1995685
    Rebeli
    Participant

    I was in the airport yesterday and there was a chossid being quizzed by the border control and he was closing his eyes as she was asking him the questions, she said “disgusting charedim, can’t look at women”

    #1995711
    akuperma
    Participant

    300 years ago everyone was either Chareidi or humongously off the derekh (meaning becoming a member of the local state religion be it Christian or Islam, or joining a “reformist” group such as the Frankist or the followers of Shabbatai Zevi). Those who were willing be mesiras nefesh for Torah and Mitsvos converted (which offered immediate economic benefits). There were no “modern Orthodox”.

    Remember that until the mid-20th century it was perfectly legal, and in fact was public policy, to discriminate against those who didn’t do their jobs on Shabbos. Just being Shomer Shabbos represented tremendous mesiras nefesh (and in that era, “modern” Orthodox synagogue often had people who drove to shul and parked a block away, and members who felt proud that they kept kosher at home while avoiding pork when eating away from home). In that era, being Shomer Shabbos and going to college or holding a job for a non-Jewish employer (including the government) was difficult, so anyone even a bit frum was regarded as a fanatic.

    #1995725
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Well, perhaps before making such a life-altering decision it would be useful for the Kvetch to know what percentage of CR participants self-identify as (1) “Chareidi” versus (2) “MO” versus (3) “Sheigetz” (which would cover anyone not within groups 1 and 2 ).

    #1995724
    Avi K
    Participant

    Please define the term. The original meaning was one who shakes (at Hashem’s word). This is the origin of “Quaker” Now it seems to imply a political group.

    #1995849
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    “Charedi” as we know it is a recent Ashkenazic invention. Period. That’s what it is.

    #1995860
    ujm
    Participant

    The word or term may be a recent invention. But the practice of Torah Judaism that it refers to is the direct contemporary mesoratic practice of Judaism that started at Har Sinai and continues uninterrupted with those this term currently refers to.

    #1995865
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We simply call them a religious Jew.

    #1995868
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    There’s no such thing as Torah Judaism. There’s no such thing as Charedi Judaism. There’s just Judaism. And yes, that’s the uninterrupted chain from Sinai.

    #1995872
    ujm
    Participant

    And those who were given the term Chareidi are simply the people who continue to follow the Judaism and mesorah started at Har Sinai.

    #1995874
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Maybe Torah observent judaism.

    #1995875

    I think there are a lot of misconceptions here re “300” years ago, or before haskala. There was mostly one Jewish community, of which a typical member was a tailor or a peddler, not necessarily learned, or looking for humros. BUT, all stayed in Jewish community, and their children were still Jewish. Modernity created a challenge where uncommitted would leave, especially when there were economic incentives. We seem to have found two ways to deal with it: learn how to confront modernity on its own terms, or create a community that is totally separate, knows Jewish law and ignore the rest of the world. Both approaches are new, there is no reason to pretend our great grandmothers went to bays yaakov, both have pluses and minuses, and I don’t think we found the full response to modernity. Those who pretend that they did, whether super modern or super chareidi are both wrong.

    And, yabia, Sephardim mostly avoided haskala, so you don’t recognize all these new movements as authentic.

    #1995877
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I am surprised that no one made the point that being chareidi is more an issue of externals (dress, manner of speech, mannerism) than it is about halacha or hashkafa. UJM is way off on this one.

    I apologize for contributing to troll post and ignoring the rule of never supporting a troll.

    #1995976
    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    In Israel the term Dati was used to mean anyone religious. Now it has a different connotation.

    #1996004
    ujm
    Participant

    CTR: Being Chareidi has close to zero to do with externals such as dress, speech or mannerism. It’s all to do with how to implement practice of halacha and hashkafa.

    Simply, those described today as Chareidi is how the average (and most) religious observant Jews before the haskala/Reform lived their lives — just, without any special or additional terms, descriptions, moniker or group name.

    #1996019

    ujm,
    could you be more specific – how do modern Charedim are same as pre-haskala (medieval East European?) Jews. I think you are over-simplifying history

    #1996273
    ari-free
    Participant

    Yabia how would you characterize the chofetz chaim, vilna gaon and the chasam sofer? Are they more like chareidi, MO or sephardi (?!?)i

    #1996279
    ujm
    Participant

    Chareidi is both Ashkenaz and Sefard.

    Look at it this way: All universally acknowledged Gedolei Yisroel, that are accepted throughout the world as Gedolei Yisroel, are Chareidi. Even the non-Chareidim accept them as Gedolei Yisroel because it is blatantly obvious and indisputable. I can’t think of any non-Chareidim, especially ones who never in their lives had identified with some affiliation with the Chareidi world, who were accepted as Gedolei Yisroel throughout Klal Yisroel.

    Both contemporary and historical.

    #1996424
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yabia Omer,

    “Going Lechumra in everything is not a maala. It been actually be a spit in the face of one’s ancestors who were not noheg like that. Or it may actually be asur. Sometimes one should not be machmir. “

    Given that Benephraim made that up, you don’t have to get all offended by it.

    #1996421
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yabia Omer,

    “I guarantee that a massive percentage of the families of people in Lakewood, for example, were not Charedi a couple of generation ago. Maybe not even MO….”

    The development of the American Jewish world is not really a representative example. Until the early/mid 1900s, there was not much Torah learning available in the US (many European gedolim were opposed to immigration to America), so many immigrant families became less knowledgeable and more assimilated rather quickly.

    #1996417
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    ujm,

    “Being Chareidi has close to zero to do with externals such as dress, speech or mannerism. It’s all to do with how to implement practice of halacha and hashkafa.”

    Yet there are certain externals such as dress and mannerisms that are defined as “chareidi.” Just as there are externals such as dress and mannerisms that are defined as MO/religious Zionist, like when I get an emphasized “ShabBAT ShaLOM” back in response to my “gut Shabbos” to someone wearing a srugi. People want to identify as part of a group, and that’s ok.

    #1996473
    ujm
    Participant

    Avram, I don’t disagree with what you pointed out. But that’s very very secondary. It isn’t even close to a major point. Many Chareidim regularly dress in business attire, or other general attire, no different than many other segments of society. And only put on special clothing for davening and Shabbos.

    #1996497
    ujm
    Participant

    Avram, as an addendum to the above point, it is also relevant that Chareidim mostly simply maintained their traditional dress and mannerism. It is what it was. Whereas others decided to make a point by changing. Such as the kippa sruga was an intentional statement. Stopping to wear a hat was a change. Same with no longer wearing a jacket. On the other hand, Chareidim simply never decided to change what kind of Yarmulka they wear. Or to drop whatever aspects of their communities dress norms.

    Again, this is all very secondary and whatever nitpicking one might make on any of these individual points, the overall idea is this is at most a tiny, and not even universal, aspect.

    #1996766
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    ujm,

    “And only put on special clothing for davening and Shabbos. “

    But if someone comes to davening in jeans, T-shirt, and baseball cap, there is a high probability that the person does not self-identify as chareidi. So yes I agree with you that clothing is a secondary point and is not integral to what’s most important about being chareidi – as the expression goes, the clothes don’t make the man. But the clothes do tell us what the man wants us to think about him upon our first impression.

    #1996975

    > Chareidi is both Ashkenaz and Sefard.

    Sefardi Charedim is an oxymoron. If they are to follow their ancestors, they would be wearing turbans. Instead, they assimilated into wearing black hats out of respect to surrounding community. So, they are Charedim eternally, but in their outlook, they are very modernishe. They would wear turban in a New York minute if they would go back to Suria. Of course, in 2-3 generations, schools will convince them that they were wearing black hats from the time of Esther and Mordechai.

    So, Ashkenazi Jews who wear the same clothes as other lawyers around them are as Charedi as those Sephardim. And they would wear top hats when American Presidents will go back to that fashion.

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