Chareidi Extremists Protest On Shabbos Outside Home Of Store Owner…’ opinions?

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  • #1347695

    chabadgal
    Participant

    ‘Chareidi Extremists Protest On Shabbos Outside Home Of Monsey Store Owner That Sells Smartphones’
    Personally I feel protesting especially on shabbos is a huge chilul hashem and definitely worse than selling smartphones which can be used for good

    #1347724

    MDG
    Participant

    “Personally I feel protesting especially on shabbos is a huge chilul hashem and definitely worse than selling smartphones …”

    I agree that it is a Chillul Hashem (and Chillul Shabbat), but I feel the need to compare to selling smartphones.

    In any event, I don’t see this making a difference.

    #1347728

    chymee
    Participant

    Is this seller a NON JEWISH fellow?

    #1347718

    Avi K
    Participant

    Not only is it a chillul Hashem but it causes more chillul Shabbat as police will have to come. Not to mention throwing rocks it itself chillul Shabbat besides the fact that someone who does that is a potential murderer c”v.

    They would do much better if they would invite the customers for a meal (I actually knew a couple who went to live in Tel Aviv and went to Dizengoff St of Shabbat nights and invited people to dinner).

    #1347723

    thatcaljew
    Participant

    The` term “chareidi extremist” I believe is an oxymoron, part of being chareidi is going the “middle path”, meaning following the Torah but not making a Chillul Hashem, HaRav Ahron Teitelbaum (one of the Satmar Rebbes) once said not to go to the Anti-Gius rallies because they are a Chillul Hashem, regardless of the fact that the rallies are for a good cause, (according to Satmar at least, I’m trying not to offend any pro-gius people, inasmuch as I disagree with them).

    #1347786

    RashbiJr
    Participant

    thatcaljew:

    What’s Anti-Gius?

    #1347850

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This was not in Israel, this was in New York

    #1347854

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unless the seller is a Satmar and bound by their rules, whatever the Satmar Rebbe said does not apply to him and is irrelevent

    #1347892

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Zahasdad, I hope you aren’t responding to thatcaljew.

    #1347890

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    This matter of using tactics that originated in Eretz Yisroel and Yerushalayim in Chutz La’aretz is highly questionable at best. Problem is if you view the U.S. as the Promised Land, you’ll feel that we are the masters of the land, or at leaset “our” neighborhoods. Therefore “we can do what we like” without fear of any backlash from the host gentiles. I think an honest assessment would indicate otherwise. It would be prudent to consult da’as Torah about these sort of demonstrations in Money, Lakewood, or anywhere else in the U.S. The U.S.A. in general has been extraordinarily benevolent to our people, kein yirbu, including for the most part allowing the frum Jews to live our lives as we see fit. Let’s not wear out our welcome and cause friction and animosity that might not be sanctioned by halachah and might not be very smart.

    #1347899

    kitov
    Participant

    We need a chief rabbi in the united states to teach us right from wrong.

    #1347901

    ah yid
    Participant

    What makes them extremists is that what their manhig says is Toras Moshe and no other godol can voice their opinion. When they had the asifa in Barkly center a neighbor of mine (a nice guy otherwise) was calling everyone who disagreed an apikoris. This mindset is with technology too. Their leaders hold a smart phone is assur so everyone must listen. My rav holds If you need a smsrtphone then get one: put on a filter and use it properly. Its none of their business.
    .

    #1347902

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Does anyone have more information about what happened here. Are these the same people protesting as last time? Is it a Jewish owner? I’d her part of a specific chassidish? Are members of that same chassidish protesting? Are these protesters acting on their own or being told to by a rebbe? Why this specific store (I’m sure it’s not the only place you could by a smartphone in Monsey?

    #1347992

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I didn’t read/watch the article, since judging by the title, it sounds like something we are better off not watching/reading.

    But I have one comment: Either they were following Daas Torah and doing the right thing, or they weren’t. That is something that I think that we probably have no way of knowing even if we read/watch the video/article. Even if seems obvious that what they were doing was either right or wrong, chances are that there is missing information.

    In any case, regardless of whether or not it’s obvious that what they did was either right or wrong, which I certainly am in no position to judge, the one thing that I want to comment on is as follows:

    The heading of the article, “Chareidi Extremists…” is incorrect and extremely offensive. It gives over the message that their behavior is extremely Chareidi, and it is thereby giving the message that this is what being Chareidi means, and they are giving a very negative view of Chareidim.

    Even though I haven’t seen the video, it is pretty clear from the title that they are presenting the Chareidim negatively.

    If they did not act in accordance with Daas Torah, then they should not be called “Chareidim”. The title should be “People protest..” If they were acting in accordance with Daas Torah, then they are Chareidim and not Chareidi Extremists.

    #1347998

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Let them protest just not on shabbos

    #1347997

    The little I know
    Participant

    With all due respect to free speech, plus the obligation to be מוחה when someone is violating halacha, I have nothing but disgust for these demonstrations. They do nothing except for gaining attention in the goyishe media, and the behavior of the protesters (from either side) will be scrutinized to where there is almost a guarantee of chilul Hashem. Having strong opinions about something does not trash the issur of chilul Hashem. It might have made sense of a consensus of Rabbonim placed an issur on patronizing his store, or did something to insure that phones sold there are either with filters or otherwise “kosher” phones. BTW, speaking lashon horah on “kosher” phones does not render it muttar. So what is the real issue here?

    #1347994

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Also, it is very important to remember that you can’t judge a book by its cover. You can’t judge someone by the clothes that they wear. The same people who assume that people are Chareidi because of the way they are dressed would probably be highly offended if someone judged them by their dress.

    Years ago, I was taking a class with a Rav who happened to have been very anti-Chareidi. One of the students was very upset about things that happened at the Kosel on Shavuos and asked him about it.

    He explained, “Those people are not even Frum. They are Jews who went off the derech but dress Chareidi, so people end up thinking they are Chareidi, and judge Chareidim badly as a result. But they are not even Frum.”

    So please, don’t judge people by their clothing. If you see people throwing stones at others, they are clearly not Frum! So don’t call them Chareidim. They are not Chareidi, and they don’t represent Chareidim, and in fact, the Chareidim look down on them!

    (Again, I am not commenting on the specific issue at hand).

    #1348033

    Joseph
    Participant

    I don’t know much about this store or dispute, but speaking generally a) there are numerous rallies on Shabbos promoting Shmiras Shabbos attended by Gedolei Rabbonim and b) publicly protesting in America is a very widely recognized, honored and accepted fundamental right in American constitutional law.

    #1348057

    a zid
    Participant

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!such a kiddush shaim shamayim!MAY KLAL YISRAEL BE ZOCHE TO HAVE MORE YIDDEN LIKE THIS!

    #1348058

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Given that there is a wide spectrum of views among rabbonim on the use of smartphones and PDAs with various filtering apps installed, there can be no singular “daas torah” as some of the above postings have suggested with respect to the sale of these devices. Yes, there is a legal right for these zealots to demonstrate on the public right of way but most normal yidden would strongly object to such a protest at the merchant’s home on Shabbos. Just because something is legal under civil law does not make it “right”.

    #1348062

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ps to my post #992 above: I just reread it and realized that something I wrote could be seriously misunderstood. When I wrote that “they” are presenting the Chareidim negatively, I was referring to the people who wrote the heading for the article/video.

    #1348070

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Just because something is permitted by American Law does not mean is the right thing or a good thing to do. We have a rule of דינא דמלכותא דינא, but that does not mean that we can venture into the designated gender specific bathroom just because we feel (fe)male that day. But it is recognized under American law!

    The issue here is zealotry. We need major strong leadership to undertake that. There have certainly been such leaders around. Although we have failed to find anyone with the appropriate “plaitzes” for quite some time. There is unquestionably a chilul Hashem factor to address, besides chilul Shabbos. There is also a capital issue of whether this move is more important than staying home and learning. It is also debatable whether this drama helps the situation. Sure, it draws attention. But that does not solve the problem at all. There are hundreds of other cell phone stores, and one can easily buy phones and plans online without entering the brick and mortar establishment. Have we accomplished anything by this circus?

    I would have been satisfied to see that the owner of the store should be ordered by Rabbonim to sell only kosher or filtered phones to his Jewish customers. This high profile action will not limit access to smartphones. It will only embarrass the owner of the store, and probably cause him other hardships. Is that what we should be doing? During Elul?

    #1348166

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Bathrooms should ideally contain only one person at a time.

    #1348169

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t know if people realize this, but when you write about what a Chillul Hashem it is that “Chareidim/Jews/Frum Jews” are doing x,y,z, you are creating a Chillul Hashem! If you really care about Chillul Hashem, then please try not to post such things.

    #1348184

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    As one of the posters pointed out above, it’s Elul. Can we try to find positive things to post instead of negative ones? And create a Kiddush Hashem instead of something else?

    #1348198

    Avi K
    Participant

    LU, on the contrary. The extremists are doing the chillul Hashem. Opposing them is a kiddush Hashem.

    Little, only selling “kosher” phones to Jewish customers would open him up to fines for discrimination. Moreover, halachically it is muttar mi manafshach. If smartphones are muttar (and I know at least one rav who has one) it is certainly muttar. Even if it is not, being that there are many gentiles who sell the phones it is only a question of
    מסייע לדבר עבירה. This is allowed in a case where the aveira has not yet been committed ( Netziv, Responsa Meshiv Devar 2:31-32). Even more so being that it is not at all clear that the customers will go into inappropriate sites.

    #1348524

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avi – I had written a lot more, explaining why it’s a Chillul Hashem to post this way, but it was edited.

    In any case, if by opposing them, what you mean is going over and talking to them, then I agree (if in fact, it is true that they are wrong, which I don’t know, since I know nothing about the issue, and am not interested in knowing about it).

    What I was referring to was people posting about the issue in a public forum. If it really is a Chillul Hashem, then the more it’s written about, the bigger the Chillul Hashem it is.

    Again – it’s Elul – can we please find positive things to write about Am Yisrael?

    It is certainly better to try to find positive things to write.

    Thank you!

    #1348810

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Its easy to go after the store. Why dont they go after the members of the chassidus who walk in there in the 1st place to purchase such phones?

    #1348978

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do you focus more of your energies on stopping the drug dealers or on stopping their customers?

    #1349287

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    well since this isn’t about contraband its yet another twisted argument. An honest parallel would be do you focus your energies on the pharmacies or the addicts.

    #1349363

    Joseph
    Participant

    Really? Frum Yidden selling unfiltered data activated smartphones to frum Yidden are like pharmacists?!

    #1349410

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yes. just like any Gd fearing Torah yid won’t take his son’s ritelin or anti depressants or pain killers for himself or to make a few bucks, a Gd fearing Torah yid will take the sealed phone box to TAG and have a staff member open it and put on a filter. Is life really that base for you and your friends? I don’t even get your question.

    #1349416

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    while your at it, be careful not to pass a mcdonalds, Gd knows how tempting those fries smell and I wouldn’t want you to duck under the seat of your car and go thru the drive thru.

    #1349564

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Its easy to go after the store. Why dont they go after the members of the chassidus who walk in there in the 1st place to purchase such phones?

    I guess because “it’s easy to go after the store”.

    #1349664

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    SYAG – sorry, but I don’t see how either of your meshalim fit. Regarding the pharmacy mashal – the Ritalin, etc are kosher for some people which is why it’s okay (and necessary) to sell them.

    If we are talking about unfiltered Smartphones, is there anyone to whom it would be okay to sell it? And is there any reason why they can’t filter the phones before they sell them? (I am deliberately phrasing this as a question – I haven’t read the article, so perhaps there is an answer to these questions.)

    And regarding McDonalds, if it’s a Frum Jew who owns or works in the store, yes, that is terrible and yes there should be protests. In Eretz Yisrael, people protested when there were treif McDonald’s. Even Rebbetzin Machlis a”h, staged a protest, despite the fact that she was the model of Ahavas Yisrael.

    #1349673

    apushatayid
    Participant

    ” An honest parallel would be do you focus your energies on the pharmacies or the addicts. ”

    Or the abusers.

    #1349671

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Do you focus more of your energies on stopping the drug dealers or on stopping their customers?”

    So, chinuch and yiras shamayim are meaningless? Go after Ping Mobile, the yungerleit will suddenly move on to the next yetzer hara? Besides, that wasnt my point, but, you are good at avoiding the point and moving the discussion elsewhere.

    #1349696

    Joseph
    Participant

    Right, apy, with chinuch and yiras shamayim you should have a TV in your home because “surely” with your chinuch and yiras shamayim you’ll never tune in to the wrong stations. You could even subscribe to the New York Post because surely no one will turn to the wrong pages.

    #1349699

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Even if it is not, being that there are many gentiles who sell the phones it is only a question of
    מסייע לדבר עבירה. This is allowed in a case where the aveira has not yet been committed ( Netziv, Responsa Meshiv Devar 2:31-32). Even more so being that it is not at all clear that the customers will go into inappropriate sites.”

    You think these protestors are doing it L’shem Shomyim?
    Everything in our day & age is Osser! So no TV, internet, movies, etc.
    So what does one do, if they can’t afford the mountains?!?
    They go to a Hafgana! (Riot B’laz)

    #1349707

    sissel613_
    Participant

    On Shabbos? What about talking about things that are NOT Shabbasdig? Seems to me discussing telephones of any sort is Chilul Shabbos. People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones

    #1349716

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    It is not up to the phone dealer to install filters prior to selling a device to yidden….given the vast diversity of opinions among rabbonim about smartphones and their use, its up to each individual to follow the guidance of their local rav/posek in terms of what level of filtering (if any) they should install. If these idiots who demonstrate at the home of this dealer don’t want to use any smarphone, thats their deicsion but its not their right to impose their views on others.

    #1349407

    forgot_user_name
    Participant

    If someone does not want to own a smartphone or does not let his kid own or even if he does not want to look or talk on one, it’s okay! but to protest against a store owner that sells them?!?!

    we, as the ‘real’ “True Torah Jews” know that we have to follow the Laws of The Torah, is their any Halachic justification for making violent or even non-violent protest & to humiliate another fellow Jew?! and all of this just because ‘you’ (not the Torah) are not overly excited with his business??

    Is this not an explicit verse in the Torah? In Vayikra – Leviticus 19;17 it says לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך ולא תשא עליו חטא which means: You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your fellow, but you shall not bear a sin on his account. And as Rashi explains, the meaning of “but You shall not bear a sin on his account” is: I.e., [in the course of your rebuking your fellow,] do not embarrass him in public. — [Torath Kohanim 19:43; Arachin 16b]

    was there at all any backing for this???!!!

    if the use of smartphones is SOOO bad (in their eyes) and one who sells them has the din of M’sei’ahya Liyaday Ovrei Aveirah (one who helps out sinners) [which according to Halacha it is almost unacceptable to apply this rule in such a case, but whatever… let’s say…] then perhaps instead of protesting they shall do what the Torah says

    in Rambam De’ot chapter six it says the following:
    A person who lives in a place where the norms of behavior are evil and the inhabitants do not follow the straight path, should move to a place where the people are righteous and follow the ways of the good.

    If all the places with which he is familiar and of which he hears reports follow improper paths, if he is unable to move to a place where the patterns of behavior are proper, because of health reasons, he should remain alone in seclusion as [Eichah 3:28] states: “Let him sit alone and be silent.”

    If they are wicked and sinful and do not allow him to reside there unless he mingle with them and follow their evil behavior, he should go out to caves, thickets, and deserts [rather than] follow the paths of sinners as [Jeremiah 9:1] states: “Who will give me a lodging place for wayfarers, in the desert.”

    #1349777

    a zid
    Participant

    To Joseph:
    Of course not! Drugs harm the goof smartphones harm the neshomo!
    Yidden heiligeh yidden please listen to me! Like previously mentioned its elul and one of the things the heiligeh baal shem tried to in force is constantly seeing the good in everyone, and everything and bezuches us strengthening in this field hashem should bring moshaich as the the baal shem tov writes in his letter to Reb Gershon Kitiver that he went up to shomayim he asked moshaich when he is coming and he responded by saying when your wellspring (chassidus) overflow outward!

    #1349864

    Avi K
    Participant

    LU, if you think that there are non-frum people who read this forum you are correct (I would also add the articles that emphasize that someone who was killed or injured is frum although this is a common thing – another site wrote that a certain person killed was Israeli while the YWN wrote that he was frum). On the other hand, if there are protesters who read this then it is a rebuke.

    #1349879

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Though this is a forum that can be read by anyone, we don’t have to make excuses for people who got themselves in the news by causing disruption with no purpose. This rowdy behavior is not true chassidus and should not be tolerated especially by our own. (Other people don’t get to say these things, just like there are some things only your mother is allowed to say.)

    #1349928

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    RY – As my elementary school teachers used to say, “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything.”

    #1349929

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Qualification to my last two posts: I am not expressing an opinion on the topic at hand about which I know nothing and am not interested in knowing anything. I do not mean in any way to imply that these people are either right or wrong.

    #1349926

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avi, there are definitely not-Frum people reading this (as well as non-Jews, anti-semites, anti-Religious, and anti-Chareidi people who will get the impression that these people represent the Chareidi world since they are (possibly incorrectly) referred to as Chareidim). Therefore, it is L”H and a Chilul Hashem (if posters write about them negatively)

    The fact that one of the protesters may happen to be reading this as well does not render it okay.

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