Chashuve Rabbonim participating in Public Events with Goiyeshe Prayers

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  • #1520206

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Was anyone bothered by Rav Lau, shlita, and Rav Yitchak Yosef, shlita, the two “Chief Rabbonim of EY” attending the ceremony today where where American Evangelicals prayed in the “name of Xesus”? On several occasions here, may have been critical of attending such events. Is the fact that the event was “political” rather than “religious” in nature and not held in a church make it OK?? I’ve also noted that Rav Shemtove, the senior Chabad rav in D.C. attend events with Trump where other goiyeshe pastors offer prayers…..

    Is there a bright line test as to when its OK and when its not?

    #1520274

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    I guess since it’s on an ad hoc basis it’s mutar as opposed to an actual service in a structure dedicated to serving cheese-us.

    #1520275

    The little I know
    Participant

    What’s not OK about it? Any references to cite? Goyim need to pray their own way, and our presence is not an endorsement or approval. Anyone say different?

    #1520282

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Is the fact that the event was “political” rather than “religious” in nature and not held in a church make it OK??”

    Yes.

    #1520314

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I recall a broigas right after the first big memorial event after 9/11 held at Yankee stadium where several big rabbonim who participated in offering prayers with clergy from other faiths were subject to considerable criticism…..so I guess if you do it outside a church in a public venue its ok

    #1520342

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    GH

    A few points.

    1) I assume you are referring to the “prayer service” that took place at yankee stadium on 9/23/01. That was clearly different than thsi event which was an embasssy opening .
    2) BH there are many yidden with varying opinions just because people get broigas. Doesnt mean they are right. I’m sure some will criticise these Rabbanoim too. Thats ok there is room for machlokes (as long as its leshem shomayim of course)
    3) You say “.several big rabbonim” particiated in that event (though I believe you are mistaken) clearly they (if they exist) held that event was ok too.
    4) In your OP you asked “Was anyone bothered” Yes I was bothered (though I do not recall anyone mentioning the actual name, just “messiah” perhaps I wasnt listening closely, and it might not be a big distinction) But being bothered doesn’t make it assur

    #1520380

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    With one exception, I wasn’t bothered and in fact felt it was appropriate for the two rabbonim to be in attendance. BTW, as you can probably sense, I am makeil on many issues that the chumrah crowd finds very offensive. What really did both me bigtime was the decision to import the Evangelical galach from Texas who has a history of racist, islamaphoic and implicitly anti-Semitic remarks which devalue yidden and yiddeshkeit, along with Mormons and other minority faith groups. BTW, he did mention the name of his “moishiach” explicitly whereas he could have offered a less offensive and inclusive prayer. This was really a Trump campaign rally for his right wing base and was orchestrated with that in mind.

    #1520502

    R’ Y. Perr of Far Rockaway related once [ if any details are inaccurate,someone correct me]
    when he was a boy his father a noted Rabbi ,was called to attend some sort of political event with figures of other religions

    At the conclusion the Bishop stood up to say a prayer and everyone rose as well.
    His father remained firmly in his seat and held him in his.
    He asked his father afterwards about it. His father replied ‘To stand up would have been a Sha’aleh of Harog V’al Ya’avor’

    #1520577

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Rabbonim in lakewood​ have get togethets and meetings in one of the local theatres. Is that ok?

    #1520597

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    mind.

    May 14, 2018 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm#1520502REPLY
    It is Time for TruthParticipant
    R’ Y. Perr of Far Rockaway related once [ if any details are inaccurate,someone correct me]
    when he was a boy his father a noted Rabbi ,was called to attend some sort of political event with figures of other religions

    At the conclusion the Bishop stood up to say a prayer and everyone rose as well.
    His father remained firmly in his seat and held him in his.
    He asked his father afterwards about it. His father replied ‘To stand up would have been a Sha’aleh of Harog V’al Ya’avor’
    ————————————-
    Whats worse a “shaalah” of y’ahrog v’aal yavor or a “Definite” chillul hashem?

    #1520600

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You are conflating eivah with chillul Hashem.

    #1520618

    adocs
    Participant

    Takes2

    Where are you getting your definition of chilul hashem? Just because goyim may get upset, is not the definition of chilul hashem.

    #1520632

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Not conflating anything. It was an outright chillul shem shamayim befarhesya!

    #1520634

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You obviously don’t understand the concept of chillul Hashem.

    #1520637

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    It was not a “chilul hashem” nor a question of Harog V’al Ya’avor’. They transformed a day that could have been a big victory lap for both Trump and Bibi and instead turned it into some political intern’s version of the campaign event from hell by inviting Trump’s favorite racist galach who makes vile comments about yidden, Mormons etc. to offer “prayers” in Xsus’ s name in front of the two chief rabbonim of EY. Why not simply recognize that EY is a JEWISH state and let an American rav deliver the invocation (but of course that wouldn’t have played well with Trump’s right wing evangelical followers).

    #1520640

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Its not a concept, its a fact

    #1520642

    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor, I just saw the video (I presume that you are referring to Dr. Robert Jeffress). . He prayed to “the Gd of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”. At the very end he referred to that man as the “Prince of peace” and “our (a presume he meant Xtians) lord”. “Lord” can simply mean “leader”. If they want to consider him their rebbe I have no objection. BTW, another Chabad rabbi was right there with him and spoke right after him.

    How does sitting at an event not in a church (which is ordinarily a problem of marit ayin that one is praying there unless it is obvious that one is not) imply agreement? Jeffress also praised Netanyahu and Trump. Does sitting there imply endorsement of either?

    #1520652

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Avi K…

    Prior postings have answered my original question about the appropriateness of the two chief rabbonim participating in the event. Most, not all, feel it was OK. The part that is more troubling is the choice of these two evangelicals with their track record of hateful insulting yidden, Catholics, Muslims, etc. Also, the visuals of Ivanka sitting there smiling on the split screen with the other side of the screen showing bodies be carried away in Gaza was upsetting. While Hamas was clearly the cause, those visuals also made the event somewhat surreal and may create a bid setback for EY in the longer term.

    #1520654

    Avi K
    Participant

    I see that Hagee spoke at the end and did not mention him at all.

    #1520656

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Takes2-2tango

    Doing a mitzvah can NEVER be a CH

    #1520687

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Takes2-2tango:

    What a mind-boggling corruption of the idea of chillul Hashem! How can opposing avodah zarah (or “shituf” at the very least) be a chillul Hashem?! This is the biggest kiddush Hashem!

    When our forefather avraham ha’ivri opposed the entire world in his time and stood up for the one G-d was he making a chillul Hashem for not respecting and being tolerant of their beliefs??!! This is the arch-typical kiddush Hashem!

    Amazingly, you seem to think “nihyeh kechol hagoyim” is a kiddush Hashem, and doing the job we chosen people were put into history to do is a chillul Hashem!

    Making a kiddush Hashem is more than just being honest and upright and moral. It is mainly standing up for the basic fundamental beliefs which all mankind is required to have, and which they all will have when the moshiach comes.

    #1520709

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Its not a concept, its a fact

    You don’t even seem to know what the word fact means.

    #1520727

    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor,
    1. Apparently he has done teshuva for his past statements.
    2. How do you know about those split-screens? Do watch (please excuse the expression) TV? I saw at least some of the speeches on Arutz-7 and there was no split screen. In any case, you should blame the station manager not the chief rabbis. He is obviously some antisemite or self-hating Jew who wanted to ruin the public joy.

    #1520853

    adocs
    Participant

    Takes2

    Can you please give us your definition of chilul hashem?

    #1521116

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Its a חלול שם שמים בפני כל עם. There is no teshuva for this.

    #1521167

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Its a חלול שם שמים בפני כל עם. There is no teshuva for this.

    Repeating it doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t. You are obviously not familiar with what the definition of chillul Hashem is.

    What do you think it means?

    #1521183

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The split screens were on several cable news networks in the U.S…..you are paranoid if you think some TV producer was “anti-Semitic” for showing the Hamas rioting where 58 were killed real time while the embassy event was ongoing….both were newsworthy but the effect was jarring.

    #1521194

    Irony
    Those who profoundly feel תקן עולם במלכות need now to somehow defend from those ‘pious’ attacks of those don’t?

    #1521222

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Seems Take 2 is not responding so I will. The main chillul Hashem is doing an avairah bifnay asarah meyisrael! Not ma yomru hagoyim; why didn’t that Jew stand up when our savior cheese-us was invoked.

    #1521251

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Takes2
    So דניאל ( from נבוחדנצר’ס time) made a חילול ה by not bowing down to the צלם?
    Pretty interesting.
    I guess we should all try to make as much חילול ה as we can. Maybe it will bring the גאולה for us just as it was ultimately the catalyst then.
    I bet I can guess some other things you consider a חילול ה
    Men walking in the street in a hat and jacket.
    Women walking in the street in the summer dressed צנוע
    Not answering your cell phone in public. (I mean every body answers so you look like you are inconsiderate to the one who called you. Total חילול ה )
    Not edging into the intersection as your light changes to red
    Letting someone pull out of a parking spot. (because there last two examples the person behind you is honking like m
    mad.

    #1521249

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    yitzchokmParticipant
    Takes2-2tango

    Doing a mitzvah can NEVER be a CH
    —————————————–
    Its called מצוה הבא בעבירה is a chillul hashem according to everyone especially is it was done in public

    #1521260

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Uncle Benny…..most yidden don’t consider Xesus as “their savior” or for that matter, their anything. The Rav on the program (Wolowik), along with the two racist evangelical Trumpkopfs (Jeffress and Hagee), runs the local Chabad house in 5T on Long Island near the home of Ambassador Friedman so I’m guessing that’s why he was there. It was awkward that he decided to invoke the same pasuk from tehillim about davening for shalom yerushalayim that 5 minutes earlier had been quoted by the hateful galach Jeffress.

    #1521269

    adocs
    Participant

    Takes2

    Stop ignoring the question!

    Please. State. Your. Definition. Of. Chilul. Hashem.

    #1521289

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Dorahleh; You totally misinterpreted my post. You don’t know what ma yomru hagoyim means?
    Also your post can be misunderstood to read that Rabbi Wolowik runs the Chabad house in 5 Towns together with the 2 galochim! That is obviously not what you meant. Reread your posts before hitting the submit button.
    Re the awkwardness, I once heard an interesting story from Rabbi Manis Friedman. He was asked to speak to a Jewish woman who wanted to convert to Christianity. He asked her why she wanted to convert. She said that she discovered such beautiful scripture there. He asked her, such as? She said, like Psalms!!! She had no idea it was from our Tanach! So if the galach quotes Tanach it should be off limits to us? By the way I was proud that President Bush quoted Tehillim when he addressed the nation after the Sept 11 attacks. He quoted from the mizmor ledovid we sing at seuda shlishis. גם כי אלך בגיא צלמות לא אירה רע כי אתה עמדי. Even though I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, I am not afraid because you are with me.

    #1521300

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The Rambam enumerates three types of chillul Hashem. The first is when someone refuses to give up his life when called for. The second is when one commits a sin not because he’s driven by his urges but pretty much out of spite.

    The third category is what we typically mean when we talk about chillul Hashem: when someone who should know better acts in a fashion that is perceived to be beneath him. In a Talmudic discussion of what would constitute a chillul Hashem, Rav said it would be if he didn’t pay his butcher on time (Yoma 86a). That’s not such a grievous thing but coming from Rav, it reflects badly on Torah scholars. Each of us at our own level is responsible to strive to act upward and not stoop down.

    The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, “That’s how Jews act?” or “That’s how religious people act?” The sin of making a chillul Hashem is so serious that the Talmud in Yoma (86a) tells us that neither teshuvah (repentance), Yom Kippur nor suffering can fully effect atonement for a person. A person cannot be fully cleansed of the taint of making a chillul Hashem until he has died.

    This mitzvah applies to both men and women in all times and places. It is discussed in the Talmud in the tractates of Yoma (86a) and Sanhedrin (74a-b), and is codified in the Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh De’ah 157. This mitzvah is #63 of the 365 negative mitzvos in the Rambam’s Sefer HaMitzvos and #155 of the 194 negative mitzvos that can be observed today in the Chofetz Chaim’s Sefer HaMitzvos HaKatzar

    #1521303

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Benny. I agree with your grammatical musar and will stipulate that R Wolowik runs the 5T Chabad house without assistance of these two galachim. I’ll further stipulate that having goyim and political leaders quote from our Tanach is the norm and also not a concern. My feeling of “awkwardness ” was in the decision to have these two galachim with a long track record of hateful and racist statements on the stage for an event that should have been a great day for EY and the U.S. Instead, it was turned into a political event designed to play to the right wing base of both Trump and Bibi. There are many American evangelical leaders who also are big supporters of EY, Trump supporters but also don’t denigrate yidden and every other religious belief system other than their own. Enough said.

    #1521309

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, eiva and chillul Hashem do intersect. One can do a chillul Hashem without causing eiva (e.g. a Jew who cheats on his taxes). There can be eiva without chillul Hashem (if the anger remains personal). However, as every “religious” Jew represents Judaism they often go together. For example, in an article about the alleged legal violations by Chassidim in Brooklyn a certain newspaper pointed out sarcastically that he English translations is “pious ones”.

    Dor, even paranoids have enemies. Why do you think that split-screen was shown? Many things are “newsworthy” but are not conflated on TV.

    #1521368

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, eiva and chillul Hashem do intersect.

    I didn’t say otherwise; I said (implied) that they’re not the same.

    T2, you can continue to quote how bad chillul Hashem is, but that simply wasn’t.

    #1521591

    Takes 2,Gadol et al
    Leopold Stein and many of the early Reform used to make similar claims
    These claims are hardly your own

    #1521592

    One can in theory make a chillul Hashem in any circumstance.One should be proper and polite to the Nazis on the way to the gas chambers or to the Spaniards on the way to auto de fe

    #1521594

    The Rambam
    wrote some strong anti-goyish religion things. He wasn’t too concerned about perhaps causing a Chillul
    Was he?

    #1521636

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    GH
    ” Instead, it was turned into a political event designed to play to the right wing base of both Trump and Bibi. ”

    I’m not sure why you say “instead” that was the whole point of the move. Trump didnt do it out of love for Jews it was an easy way to score points with a big chunk of his base.
    Not that we shouldnt be thankful, as it was soemthing many of us wanted too.

    “There are many American evangelical leaders who also are big supporters of EY, Trump supporters but also don’t denigrate yidden and every other religious belief system other than their own. Enough said.”
    That isnt quite true, they just arent as vocal. They believe that once all Jews are in ISrael the battle of Armeggeddon will occur and 2/3 will get killed and 1/3 embrace their messiah who will save us all.

    this isnt news, they are usually honest about this belief.
    The debate is, whether to work with them and accept their support in the interim. I’m persoanlly for it, we can take an ysupport we can get and we will worry about Osa haish when he returns.*

    (* I’m being facetious I dont beleive he is returning)

    #1521816

    adocs
    Participant

    Takes2

    Nice. So you know how to copy and paste from the OU website. (I’d provide the link but don’t want to upset the mods)

    Chilul Hashem only comes into play if one is doing something wrong. If a Jew is acting in an appropriate manner, it doesn’t matter if the goyim like it or not. The goyim are not the arbiters of how we’re supposed to act.

    #1521854

    lesschumras
    Participant

    GH, at times your naivety and hatred of Trump leads you to wrong conclusions. Virtually all Christians believe that heaven is only open to Christians. The evangelicals just happen to be more honest and vocal about it. The evangelicals just happen to be among Israel’s biggest supporters.
    You seem to object to Trump playing to his right wing base. What’s your issue? the left wing is generally anti Israel, so why should he cater to them?

    #1521913

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Nothing wrong with holding the Trumkopf campaign rallies where he rants on for an hour about how he is the “second coming” politically speaking with all the fawning and adulating boot lickers providing worshipful commentary about how his election was evidence of divine intervention into the American political system. Moving the embassy to Yerushalayim was one of the few things that ALL yidden could unite behind as long overdue However, for all the reasons noted in prior posts, they trashed an otherwise unifying event with their choice of speakers. I guess we just disagree.

    #1522370

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Gadol, you object to the way the minister puts down Mormonism as a cult and disparages other religions. Isn’t that a case of the pot calling the kettle black? We orthodox rip each other in this coffee room and we all rip the non-orthodox . So, doed that make us equally guilty of making hateful statements?

    #1522539

    Rabbonim in lakewood​ have get-togethers and meetings in one of the local theatres. Is that ok?

    There’s only one local theatre that I know of, the Strand. I’ve never heard
    of rabbonim meeting there – if that’s indeed the case, it’s not advertised.

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