Chasidus bans “informers” from using its facilities

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  • #1865290
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    as reported in Israeli media, the Bohush chasidus banned anyone who reported an covid 19 violations from using anything related to them including Mikve, coffee room, renting its social hall, gemach etc.
    edited

    #1865324
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Such “informers” are actually heroes to their own neighbors, their chassidus, and the tzibur at large. Daas torah allows for such “informing” to save a life in immediate danger. Any rabbonin or askanimn who seek to punish these individuals who may have saved lives by interrupting any dangerous pandemic practices are themselves like to suffer the consequences of what they wished on others.

    #1865308
    Joseph
    Participant

    This is a very light punishment. Al pi Torah and al pi Halacha the prescribed punishment for mosrim is much harsher than what they are doing.

    #1865315
    fiery chossid
    Participant

    Yes it’s true the chassidus was very carefully about the virus and shut the shul and mikve but is anti Zionist so are against calling the police the rebbe who is a tremendous tsaddik agreed to the letter but it was only signed by the hanhole and gaboim . It is a bit out of character of the chassiduss to do this as even though they don’t accept money from the government and don’t vote they keep a low profile and don’t let the chassidim to protest

    #1865341
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @godolhatorah, I guess hero’s are in the eyes of the beholder, chances are that people who informed will pay the piper for some time to come [banned from using the social halls, gemachs etc.]

    #1865352
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Common- you obviously disagree with their calling of the authoritees, do you also disagree with putting people in danger?

    #1865354
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    I have a feeling this will go both ways. People who are upset about the irresponsibility of some of these mosdos might boycott them for some time to come.

    #1865397
    ThinkingCap
    Participant

    just a klutz-kashe: i imagine that the informers
    did not inform on themselves. if so, how were they discovered, or does the chassidus expect them to voluntarily socially distance rhemselves?

    #1865416
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @syag, there is a tort concept called assumption of risk, meaning that your aware of the risk and you proceed, for example when I go rafting, skiing, etc. I take an assumption of risk, Likewise this is the same, I have a high count of antibodies [ so high that the red cross call me the day after my results came in asking me to donate plasma] and I am negative for covid 19, so with social distancing my chances of infecting someone is remote.
    Obviously this worked in Bohush because no one got seriously sick ,and they have every right to denie access to the extended network of chesed to those who stabbed them in the back

    #1865417
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @thinking cap, it complaint is public record, very easy to trace the complaint. In fact there is a movement in Rockland, Ocean County and NYC to trace the source of the complaints

    #1865449
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Common- i didn’t say i agree with mesira, i asked if you disagree with putting people in danger. Your response is to make some statement about your personal assessment of your own health and then silently imply that everyone in the minyan did the same, and carefully assessed each attendee? How about just answering the question.

    By the way, they called you for your antibodies because you have them to give. That doesn’t infer you are safe. You may be, but your “proof” isn’t proof.

    #1865470
    Bocher from Lkwd
    Participant

    R Eliyahu Levine Shlit”a (who was appointed by R Elyashiv to pasken the aguna shailos from 9/11) put out a letter that moisrim during this time have all the dinim of a moiser that appear in shulchan aruch (o”ch siman 55) and definitely are not mitztarif for a minyan……

    #1865498
    Joseph
    Participant

    Is there any legitimate posek in the world that purported to contrive some reason why there was a heter for mesira here?

    Since none are known, there’s no reason to assume so any more than one would assume someone publicly seen sitting at the window in Burger King eating pork on Yom Kippur had a heter to do so.

    #1865532
    fiery chossid
    Participant

    kol hakoved to the bohusher mosdos for doing what they did it is knowaones job to maser and the people who did it where not the people who cared so much about the tsibur but those who wanted a matsav as it was all boring and fancied a bit of entertainment at the expence of another yid . it is an outrage that people did such a thing and they should receive the punishment they deserved in the world to come as well. but I salute bohush

    #1865536
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a heter of mesira to their beis din who should decide what to do.

    #1865551
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    @joseph

    I could mention rabbanim that hold you can inform some fully and some only in limited situations. But you only want legitimate poskim and if they hold you can inform then yiu probably don’t consider them legitimate. Nice cath-22 you made there.

    #1865552
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    @joseph

    And the sign in Bohosh said even people that received a heter to inform

    #1865588
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Fiery,
    People were really scared. I do not see a gain in hurting more people now. Teach them what would have been the proper way to react.

    #1865589
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Bocher,
    Mesira is clearly because of damaging another yid. If there is no damage at all, the whole mesira is just a word, none of it applies. A million percent if the moser got nothing out of it, then he is less of a rasha than the extreme scenario of the SA.

    #1865591
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @godal, its time to pay the piper, the consequences of snitching on your fellow yid should have been thought thru before you drop your dime on your neighbor

    #1865630
    a mamin
    Participant

    Why was someone putting you in danger if they for example made a minyan ? If you listened you would be in your house, wouldn’t you ? Then you had nothing to worry about!
    Kapos were also mosrim!

    #1865663
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Does bohush ban people who inform the authorities regarding people chocking ? What about if they call to report car accident s? Fires?

    Such mosrim should never be tolerated if a house burns with people in it, what kind of evil moser would report it? Is there a legitimate Rav that allows such a thing?

    Why is it your business, stay in your house if there is no risk to you why report it?

    #1865653
    Geula
    Participant

    I actually thought this was a joke.
    The ones endangering others are “fine people”. But those who are informing on them in order to minimize SAKONAS NEFOSHOS are “bad people”! Herd mentality at it’s best

    #1865665
    Avi K
    Participant

    It is permitted to turn in anyone who is a danger to the general community. Even a forger (Rema, CM 388:12). Did these people self-isolate and do everything there? If not, there is no assumption of risk. Besides, in Torah law there is a positive mitzva to guard our lives very carefully. Rav Asher Weiss vehemently condemned people like them. Those who were outed were done a great favor.

    #1865661
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @n0m, the way to teach them is to make it painful that you wont be motivated to this again, for example when you speed and you pay a fine and your insurance goes up its a painful lesson.
    There are number of people as you can see by reading the comments who feel 100% justified snitching on the neighbors I don’t care how scared you were, there are certain lines you don’t cross.
    So if you try to bite the hand that fed you [ informing on the mosed when you used the gemach and now you need to find a new place to borrow money] let it be a painful lesson.
    edited

    #1865682
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Fiery and Common are claiming this was a unique case. Whatever. I do not know if the police were informed by a neighbor or a member of the community. If so, the chassidim should have clarified that they were being very careful. If that was done, the informer could use a therapist.

    #1865683
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I don’t care how scared you were, there are certain lines you don’t cross.”
    You almost made sense until this line.
    People weren’t scared, their lives were in actual danger. There was no way to know they would get a mild case. Were they makpid not to go anywhere other than minyan so as not to expose people?
    You started a hock here for fun without half of the necessary onformation.
    If a man who is dying insists on fasting on Yom Kippur is he stupid or also a hero for upholding halacha?

    I sometimes wonder whats worse, a moser who brings bad behavior to the authorities, or a yid who brings these stories here to enjoy machlokes.

    #1865685
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi

    Leave The Rema out of it, “Legitimate poskim” only please

    #1865727
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @syag,
    I posted this the same way the person posted the news about Young Israel or the same way that Yair Hoffman posted about Rabbi Frankel. Its current events and this report was already in the media, certainly didn’t post it for fun of it.
    The mochlokes started on March 17 and continued till now, when you had a Doctor running into shuls threatening people, when you have a van crashing into people davening outside, when you had a Rabbi threaten to run another Rabbi out of the five towns because he operated a porch minyan, when you had a shul in Florida ostracize people for forming a minyan that was not machlokes??? give me a break. And you certainly had no issue with those.
    I guess it depends on whos ox is being gored.

    #1865733
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @ Avi K, no problem, the way to respond with kindness is with equal kindness, being the Bohush was such a evil place and it needed a favor of being reported, the mosdos is extending the favor by forcing them to find another Gamach or another social hall that one can rent for next to nothing, kindness is repaid in kind.

    #1865738
    Bocher from Lkwd
    Participant

    so to sum it all up it’s R Elyahu Levine who says that they have a din ‘moiser’ vs. nomesorah who says not……… why you lookin at me!?

    #1865756
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    @a mamin

    I know i shouldn’t be replying to trolls but…

    Adolf Hitler wore clothing, so you are Hitler.

    #1865768
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    Teaching through pain might work. Not if your goal is teaching Torah. I could give you a list of like minded mechancim with zero talmidim.

    #1865769
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Bocher,
    Next time I see Reb Eliyahu, I will take it up with him. According to my religion, when you have a question you investigate. Lil’mod U’lelameid. May we all fullfill our obligation to study the Torah in it’s entirety.
    P. S. If you can tell me where in O”CH 55 is a moser mentioned.

    #1865773
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Strange that just before scanning the latest posts on this thread, I had read an uplifting story in the news section about some guy named Gary in the Detroit community who had arranged to renovate and distribute thousands of bikes to kids in the community who had been stuck at home for 2 months and just being allowed outside. What an act of tzadakah and kindness. Here were are debating the halachic pros/cons of community members who “informed” on those who violated public health guidelines because they felt their OWN needs were more important than those of the tzibur-at-large. As noted above, I think the informers should be celebrated as heroes and the idiots who endorsed this shunning are the one to be treated as outcasts.

    #1865793
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    This is a very light punishment. Al pi Torah and al pi Halacha the prescribed punishment for mosrim is much harsher than what they are doing.

    Well, as an actual living, breathing moser (I once called the cops because of a car alarm going off at 3 AM without actually calling a rav first to ask if that’s okay), I’m still waiting for someone to step forward and give me the traditional punishment.

    Do you want to do it, Joseph?

    The Wolf

    #1865810
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf, I emailed you about nine years ago to take care of what you asked but you declined to give me the information.

    #1865808
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Wolf I think the mosdos have it right, if your a moser they will stop servicing you. I guess the guy whos car alarm annoyed you should stop giving you hitches

    #1865809
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Godal, that happen in YI of Deerfield and they shunned the porch miyan people, whereas in Beni brak they shunned the informers, it depends on eyes of the beholder.

    #1865815
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, I emailed you about nine years ago to take care of what you asked but you declined to give me the information.

    No. I was prepared to meet you. *You* made it clear that you were just going to waste my time and not actually do it.

    The Wolf

    #1865818
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf, nisht emes. Check your email for 8/6/2012 (sorry, my memory was off by about 15 months.) I was away from the city for the summer and you insisted it being in the city so I offered to do it when I returned. But you adamantly declined to share the necessary information.

    Have an absolutely gevaldik and lichtig Yom Tov!

    #1865942
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Joseph, how does the law of handing a Jew’s property over to goyim apply in Israel? Whatever the rights or wrongs of informing on someone to the Israeli authorities, clearly the provisions of Choshen Mishpot ch 388 do not apply there.

    #1865953
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Ran in Nedarim paskens that in Eretz Yisroel there’s no obligation of Dina D’Malchusa Dina. (Since the basis for DDD is Jews adhering to the kingdoms rules in return for the kingdom permitting the Jews to reside there says the Ran; but as Jews already have a G-d given right to live in Eretz Yisroel they therefore have no obligations to the ruling authorities in Eretz Yisroel, paskens the Ran.) As such, there’s no obligation to adhere to Israeli law. Therefore, for a Jew to cause another Jew to be penalized by the secular authorities for doing something that’s halachicly permissible, is impermissible.

    #1865981
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @milhouse, this has nothing tp with what you are asking, its a mosdos banning the use of its service and benefits to the local snitches.

    #1865982
    ubiquitin
    Participant
    #1866057
    Avi K
    Participant

    Common, there is a gemach for COVID-19? As for the social hall, there are many social halls in NYC. I personally would be very wary of entering this group’s. Just out of curiosity, how did they know who called the police. Were they just guessing? Did they collectively punish all the neighbors

    #1866103
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Avi k, had you read this post from the beginning instead of just trying to make someone sound silly you would have read that we are talking about a Chasidus in Bnai Brak not NYC.
    but being that you asked I will tell you, the Chasidus has many services that the community at large utilizes including a very low cost social hall [ just pay the cleaning cost], a gemach that lent money to the community at large, etc. This has been going for many year pre corona and will iyh go on for many more years.
    As to your question of how do they know who informed, very simple its a matter of public record both in Israel and in the USA

    Edited

    #1866109
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    It seems like they just put up a notice. It will work like the paper that says the bochurim will stay in BMG 2 out of 3 shabbosim. Or that they will not smoke in yeshiva. Or the girls will ask permission everytime they leave seminary. Etc. Etc.

    #1866146
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Common, as you could easily see, my comment was a reply to Joseph. How is your response relevant to that?

    Ubiquitin, it is you who is not being truthful, though perhaps inadvertently, because you took the untruthful article you cite at its word, and didn’t bother reading the document it deliberately mistranslated. Reb Chaim absolutely did NOT call those who violate the heath ministry’s rules rodfim, and there is no heter to do so. As anyone can see by simply looking at the document that is EMBEDDED IN THE FALSE ARTICLE, Reb Chaim reserved the term “rodef” for someone who is A KNOWN CARRIER, IN QUARANTINE, and breaks it to go to a minyan. Such a peson, who KNOWS FOR A FACT that he is a danger to others, and has therefore been ordered to stay away from them, and knowingly goes and exposes them, is obviously a rodef.

    #1866196
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Reb Chaim absolutely did NOT call those who violate the heath ministry’s rules rodfim”

    he did.

    In point #2

    “A person who claims that he trusts in Hashem that he won’t become ill and therefore he makes light of the health ministry’s instructions (keeping a distance from others, not leaving the home unless it’s urgent, etc.) can he be defined as a “rodeif” because he’s liable to endanger others?”

    I cant be bothered to retype the hebrew but the above is a fair translation of point #2

    (you are right about the informing part which was regarding a person violating quarantine)

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