Chasidus Without Context
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- This topic has 155 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 3 weeks ago by n0mesorah.
December 19, 2022 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2149891
reb e, that’s correct that there’s a strong tzad not to be concerned with what people do as a result of our keeping halacha – we do what we are obligated to do, and if people go off, it’s not our responsibility – because we’re only doing what’s obligatory on us.
that has nothing to do with making a sacrifice of letting people fall away because we want to bring out the best in others (the example of not teaching chasidim to be jewish in their dress, etc..)December 19, 2022 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2149900
So you learnt chassidus yourself and believe that its a good thing for people to learn but disagree with the amount of chassidus that chabad encourages. Fine. But your “proof” is simply preposterous. You have taanos against certain Chabad beliefs, but to, but to blame that on chassidus is ridiculous. Can you find any direct or indirect link between the teachings of chassidus that explain the spiritual makeup of the world, man, the Torah, Hashem, and the relation between one another, to any of your complaints listed in your post? Chabad may have its seemingly peculiar beliefs, but there are thousands who share none of those beliefs and do not identify with Chabad, yet learn the same amount and type of chassidus that we do.
By the way, chabad yeshivos learn 3 hours chassidus, and 7 hours nigla. So no need to worry chassidus “eating up” our nigla. We view chassidus as equally important b’eichus but we also learn it secondary b’kamus.December 19, 2022 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #2149914commonsaychelParticipant
@Yechi, what seforim do they learn?December 19, 2022 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2149932
By the way, chabad yeshivos learn 3 hours chassidus, and 7 hours nigla. So no need to worry chassidus “eating up” our nigla. We view chassidus as equally important b’eichus but we also learn it secondary b’kamus.
Sounds like nice apologetics, but the Seder Hayom posted in Lubavitcher Yeshivos that I have seen show a different story.December 19, 2022 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2149934
It may be surprising to many, but thousands of poilishe and hungarishe chassidim learn – besides for tanya – the maamorim of the Rebbe Rashab, frierdike Rebbe, and the Rebbe. Likkurei sichos less so, but I’ve come across many that seem more proficient in l”s than me……December 20, 2022 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #2149993
Missionary Bachurim is a 770 phenomenon. The Chabad yeshivos outside the tri-state area, are much more level headed. I’ve hung around a few. They learn shas and poskim on a high level. If not for the cultural barrier, they could easily excell in BMG. Which isn’t saying much.December 20, 2022 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #2149994
In a standard Chabad yeshiva, they learn the standard rishonim, S”A, and maharsha type acharonim. More teshuvos and less of the standard acharonim. Not much lomdos besides the Brisker sefarim.
The study of Chassidus replaces Mussar, Machashava, and Chumash sefarim. It’s a much cleaner transition than any other yeshiva. Because it’s the same authors for all these topics.December 20, 2022 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #2149997
youall should realize that nobody will value your group by the seforim you say you learned, but by your behavior.December 20, 2022 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #2150001
Haleivi, to be fair, it depends on the yeshiva and the degree of wackiness therein. Some places definitely follow the seder yechi mentions, but more radical ones will spend more time on chasidusDecember 20, 2022 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #2150154
Lol no, 3 hours a day is what all yeshivos do nowadays. Yeshiva ketanas do 2 hours.
The Seder hayom you saw must have been the original tomchei temimims in warsaw and Lubavitch.
Nunu, yeridas hadoros….December 20, 2022 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #2150213commonsaychelParticipant
@Yechi, 95% of chabad bucherim never touch a chasidisher sefer that come from Poland/. HungaryDecember 20, 2022 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #2150220
Since chasidus is, yechi agrees, toras hanistar manifested in avodas Hashem, many would hold that you’re not mekayam talmud torah with it, the same as by mussar. This would apply heavily to the last half of the tanya, known as the “polisher perakim” because gerrer and others avoided the conceptual first half, and focused on the latter, which was more avodah centered.
If that’s so, it shouldn’t be something you spend 3 hours on everyday. If you hold that it’s a limud of torahs hanistar leshem limud, then it’s a different story, because then it would have the halachik equivalent of learning kabalah – which only counts as talmud torah if you’re holding by really being masig what it is. Something almost no one today can do; you need a high level of kedushah, a rebbe muvhak, and you need to “see” things in it, like the zohar famously changes from the gemara’s “tah shma” to “tah chazi”
Chasidim often said that they’re not learning kabalah in the sense of kisvei ari and limud lishem limud, to avoid this issue; they said they’re learning it because our generations need the fire of nistar to wake us up for avodas Hashem, and I couldn’t agree more – but that makes it a form of mussar, and not talmud torah.December 20, 2022 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #2150222
Or from China/Japan.December 20, 2022 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2150223
Let me just point out the term “missionary bochurim” is hyperbolic. The Rebbe instructed bochurim to go out and spread chassidus in other shuls. The fact that bochurim came to your yeshiva and acted improper should not be conflated with the general idea of tahalucha which is widely considered acceptableDecember 21, 2022 1:31 am at 1:31 am #2150263
Yechi, saying that the rebbe instructed them to do so only is a justification if you accept the authority or legitimacy of the rebbe. I accept neither. To me, he made a mistake in telling people to go into other communities which were doing fine on their own and try to convert them into chabad chasidim. It’s arrogant, chutzpah, and is breaching a boundary of mutual respect that the rest of klal yisroel has for one another.
Even groups that do not get along – we don’t see MO people going into yeshivos, or yeshivish people going into MO shuls to spread their ideas.December 21, 2022 1:31 am at 1:31 am #2150265
Your post is baffling. How is limud Torah not Limud HaTorah? Your trying to construct a system where one study is limud HaTorah and other study is not. Being that all the topics under discussion are using the same classical (Tanach, Mishna, Gemara, Etc.) Torah sources, how could it be different just because it’s officially being studied during Mussar Seder? To quote Rabbi Yochanon, Limud enables Activity.
It should be the same across the board. The level of study is only relevant to the level of understanding. Be it Mikrah, Mishna, Chassidus, the Kabbalah, or Birchas Shmuel. You would be better off learning Nefesh Hachaim correctly off-line, instead off using as a cover for on-line debate.December 21, 2022 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2150459
“It’s arrogant, chutzpah, and is breaching a boundary of mutual respect Klal Yisrael has for one another.”
You are not part of Klal Yisrael???December 21, 2022 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2150402
nom – whether learning mussar is a kiyum of talmud torah or not is an old machlokes. I can find the sources if you’d like, but many hold that if you’re not working on understanding the maamarei chazal that are mentioned, and are learning the words to fix your middos, then you’re mekayam es Hashem elokecha tirah, i.e. yiras shomayim, and ve’halachta be’drachav if you’re learning about middos bein odom lechavero.
Some, however, especially many baalei mussar, held that you’re mekayam talmud torah, because you’re learning “halachos” of yiras shomayim and bein odom lechavero.
For torah she’baal peh, understanding is necessary to be mekayam the mitzvah, according to the gaoin and many others. For mikroh, this isn’t the case.
kabalah, which is definitely torah she baal peh, if learned on the level of understanding that one has for other parts thereof, i.e. gemara, mishnah…one is definitely mekayam talmud torah with it.
But chasidus says that it’s not kabalah study, rather it’s using kabalah for mussar, giving sifrei chasidus the same status as sifrei mussar, which as noted, is a machlokes if one is mekayam talmud torah when learned.
And if someone thinks that they’re studying the zohars and kisvei ari that are quoted in sifrei chasidus on a level of mekubalim….he’s just as delusional as a messianic man who doesn’t sleep in a sukkah because he imagines feelings of discomfort over not being uncomfortable, and who thinks that a deceased rebbe hears his thoughts and grants his wishes..
oh, wait..December 21, 2022 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2150490
Nom, how is saying that klal yisroel besides lubavitch shows respect for one another mean that I’m excluding myself?December 21, 2022 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2150598
I struggle to understand why, in your mind, “Toras hanistar manifested in avodas Hashem” and “Toras hanistar l’shem limud” are in conflict with each other. If you view your avodas hashem as independent of your limud hatorah, then perhaps that’s the reason you should learn chassidus….December 21, 2022 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #2150511
You show respect for less than five percent of Yidden. You justify this by the fantasy that the 95% is excluded for some reason or another. And what you post about a whole bunch of different Jews, is well beyond arrogance. It’s ignorance.December 21, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2150527
Avira > we don’t see MO people going into yeshivos
It may be nitpicking, but this is not a good expression if you stop to think about it.December 21, 2022 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2150532
many indeed differentiate between learning and mussar. For example, Steipler recommended R Twersky to take precautions when in medical school by, among other things, (1) learning w/ a hevruta at least 2 hours a day, (2) learn mussar or chasidus for at least 15 (or 30?) minutes a day
R Salanter, when asked what to learn in one avaiable hour – Gemora or Mussar – answered: Mussar, as it will help you to find another hour. Of course, you can just learn Mussar from Gemora and satisfy both opinions. (I am using here another R Salanter’s exchange:
– what is your source for this?
– I can’t find it in Gemora
– It _is_ in _my_ GemoraDecember 22, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2150648
Yechi, i differentiate between the two because if we look at learning nistar as we look at gemara, then almost no one is yotzei learning it, because it’s way above the hasagos of non-mekubualim. For everyone else, it’s as the taz lists it together with science and math, as chochmos.
If it’s learned as a tool for avodas Hashem, which was the hisnatzlus of many early chasidishe seforim(since it was forbidden to learn kabalah under 40, etc..), then it’s no different than sifrei mussar.December 22, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2150645
Nom – if you have an issue with something i said, then I’ll be happy to answer you, but stam saying that I’m arrogant and ignorant only makes me sound more correct.
Not believing in modern orthodoxy, chabad, and religious zionism, means that I don’t respect 95% of yidden? Are you, in fact, a lubavitcher who believes that klal yisroel consists of Chabad and a few snags?December 22, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2150642
I am not sure who is being hateful now.
You are so sure of yourself that everything you say is the ultimate Torah Min Shomayim and everyone else is hateful/misguided/does’t understand/apikoires/dillusional…..just to name a few.
For the record I agree with many things you say, but who gives you the right to declare are you are “The Only Ultimate Truth”. It smells from real arrogance.December 22, 2022 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2150838LostsparkParticipant
Avira is so hardcore he refuses to buy seforim on hei teves even if they are 50% off.December 22, 2022 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2150860
“as the taz lists it together with science and math, as chochmos.”
Resorting to trickery again? That was in reference to those topics that should wait until a person is ready (according to some, that includes having learned Kaballa). You are trying to fool people into thinking that he is saying what you are. That surely isn’t Limud Hatorah.December 22, 2022 11:10 am at 11:10 am #2150863
Avira, many Chasidishe Sefarim are indeed a form of Mussar or Avoda. Chabbad Sefarim are not. They are Toras Hanistar as explained by their Rebbes. That settles two issues. It gives clear explanations to the point being discussed and it is Limud.
Even other Chasidishe Sefarim are obviously Divrei Torah, as is Pirkei Avos. The only kind of Sefer I would question is something that focuses on Eitzos of how to work on a Midda. This is usually the author’s life-advice, and could just as well have come from Benjamin Franklin. (Include all disclaimers)December 22, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2150915
American; I don’t see anything hateful about discussing modern day wackiness in chabad.
I think it’s hateful to disparage chasidim or any other group in klal yisroel which is following a mesorah. The last rebbe changed chabads mssorah drastically, and was criticized, even discounted ny many gedolim; that isn’t the case for other chasidim 50 years past the original hisnagdus. Everyone else pretty much made peace at that point.December 22, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2150914
Haleivi, where does the taz connect shaar chochmos to what you’re referencing (it’s the rashbas ban on young people studying secular studies)? He just says that it’s assur to learn bekevius shaar chochmos and lists kabalah among them. He’s indicating that there’s a reading of kabalah which is not limud hatorah, which i think means if you’re reading kabalah seforim without being muchshar as a mekubal. If it’s for mussar then it’s a different story, as noted.
Where’s the trickery? I think you’re putting more into the taz, i.e. that he’s referring to the rashba without mentioning age or him at all. All I’m doing is saying that since kabalah is Torah, there must be some sort of way of reading it which would merit it being listed with science and math.December 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150937
I was only disparaging the ones who are only “cultruly chasidim” but have no shaychus to chasidus per say besides their Shabbos dress. And I was lamenting the fact that they are concidered the norm for chasidim today.December 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150928
Haleivi, it seems the opinions of the baalei mussar are very popular on this forum; you’re entitled to follow that shitoh, which would hold that learning nistar for mussar counts as limud Hatorah. I was explaining things according to those.who argue.December 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150924
American; i reread what i called hateful in your post and I should revise – i thought you were saying that “the chasidim” are not spiritual or medakdek etc….and rationalize it with the externals.
Some do, and it’s not hateful to point that out – my apologies.
There are some litvishe who rationalize not being careful about some things because they’re learning, so they’re definitely tzadikim; I’ve heard shmuzen about this from rav avrohom schorr, so I think it’s a universal problem with people rationalizing bad behavior by saying that they’re keeping whatever the “main thing” is in their eyes.December 22, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2151038
There is one major chiluk btween those Litvishe who rationalize their laxity in mitzvos by the fact they are learning and the “chasidim in dress only”.
We all know the Chazal “Halevai oisi uzvu vetorosi shomoru shhameor shebo machziroi lemutov”
And besides those Litvishe are being busy with good things e.g. horreving in torah, albeit lax possibly in other things. You can’t call them not spiritual just missing in some.
But someone whose whole yidishkeit is only in dress is a different story altogether.
I don’t see the comparison.
That is unless you go with the hard core Chasidish shita that all such torah learning goes straight to the Sitra Acher. I don’t know though how that shtims with the Chazal above…December 24, 2022 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #2151147
Not sure if you meant to walk back your words, but your newly revised post mentioned ‘nistar’, whereas your previous post was specifically about chassidus being learnt “L’shem avodas hashem”, which you said wouldn’t be correct to spend 3 hours a day on, as you’re not mekayem Limud Hatorah with it.
I may agree that spending 3 hours learning pure kabbalistic concepts is not right, but if we’re talking about Chassidus, and the individual genuinely feels that his Avodas Hashem, and, as a byproduct, his Limud Hatorah, is positively impacted, then why do you have a problem with that? It may not be your Derech, but there is nothing halachically wrong with spending ‘only’ 7 hours learning niglah, and the rest chassidus or musar.December 24, 2022 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #2151243
American, i agree to a large extent, but there are conditions to “hamaor shebah” – the ramchal writes that it needs to be serious learning, as serious as if this person would be learning secular studies. There also has to be a tiny desire to get better according to others, and it can’t be al menaa lekanter, which is what chazal call “sam hamaves”
Also, it’s not just the dress; these same people go to tish, give kevitalach, keep minhagim, and other chasidish things; shul is a big thing too – but i do agree that the litvak who learns hours a day is in a better spiritual predicament overall.December 24, 2022 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #2151246
Yechi, if we’re looking at it as mussar, then yes, i agree that it’s not my derech, but it’s not necessarily bitul torah either – I don’t know of a mussar yeshiva that ever spent that long on it everyday…. even novardhok, which was considered “extreme” in the mussar world, did not spend 3 hours a day. Actually, in an interview with rav greinom lazevnik zt”l, he said that the weaker boys who couldn’t handle learnijg gemara all day woild spend more time on mussar than the others. Thay also had mussar rooms and would take off time from yeshiva to do things like going to grocery stores to ask for nails, to break their gaavah, or sleep in cemeteries…but that wasn’t bekevius, taking hours out of every day.
If that’s what chabad yeshivos did in europe, then fine, but i simply don’t know, and I don’t trust the historical accounts people say today, because there’s a lot of revisionism (not just in chabad, rhis happens in many circles…i know my own worlds history from roshei Yeshiva who lived it, and there’s plenty of untrue stories about rav aharon, etc..)
Sounds like we agree that learning kabalah outright shouldn’t occupy 3 hours a day.December 25, 2022 4:10 am at 4:10 am #2151248
There unfortunately so many in the chasidish society that don’t have a Rebbe ,don’t go to tishin etc.
If you ask them which chasidus they belong to they will tell you they are “nuetral” chasidim.
They keep minhagim because of social norms and some don’t know the difference between a minhag and a deoraisoh because it’s all “cultural”.
I want to reiterate this is not disparraging chas vesholom the many many ehrlicher chasidishe yidden. But the type I am referring to is a very large growing sub community within the chassidim and it seems to me as an accepted trend amongst them.
PLease correct me if I am wrong….There doesn’t seem to be anyone within their community screaming “this is NOT chasidus but plain am haratzus and prikas ol!!”January 2, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2153144
If you only include Yidden that are from communities to the right of MO, with no forms of Zionism, and no connection to Chabad, that will be significantly less than five percent of all Yidden.
If this is hard for you to calculate, think of this: How many of the half a million Yidden in South America will make your count? Twenty five thousand would be five percent. Or think of this. There are more Yidden in Florida than NJ. Only half the synagogues in NY are even Orthodox. And not even half the Yidden of Brooklyn will make the cut.
But you have a bigger problem. I am still included in your accounting of Klal Yisrael. It’s a never ending Jihad. The only way to claim your (The same is true for anyone else. There are dozens of books that make your argument.) opinions speak for Authentic Judaism, is to declare yourself it’s mouthpiece. Otherwise, opinions are just opined and don’t hold up to vigorous Torah study.January 2, 2023 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2153176
no – you meant 5% of Jewish people; that doesn’t mean much, because 90% of Jews aren’t observant.
So yes, I regard about half of the orthodox world as authentic and the other half as having serious, systemic ideological and observance flaws.
So in your world, 10 percent of Jewish people have authentic Judaism, and 5 percent have it according to me.
So?January 2, 2023 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2153186
also, what opinions of mine don’t hold up to “vigorous torah study”?
you often resort to ad hominem(like now), secular arguments or dismissing the sources in rishonim and achronim that you don’t like in favor of unearthed, forged, or otherwise disregarded sources that maskilim dug up to upheave mesorah. I wouldn’t call that “vigorous”
also, the claim that an ideology can’t be right because it invalidates a large amount of people isn’t a very strong logical argument; maybe a lot of people are wrong? weren’t most people wrong during the churban?
the only issue with saying that everyones wrong is that if that would be the case, the omission of protest from gedolim would imply that they are right, and this is how the defense of minhagim – even to the point of dochek – is justified.
But we dont defend minhagim from amei haaretz, because no such gedolim were around not to protest. there’s no reason to defend not covering a married woman’s hair, because the gedolim at the time protested. there’s similarly no reason to justify television watching, because that too was protested.
making kiddush on schnapps is justified, because gedolim did and saw it, and most were ok with it.
so if the gedolim protested against what the majority of klal yisroel were doing, it would only mean that we should listen to them, not from me as its mouthpiece, but from them.
of course, you probably don’t care much about what gedolei yisroel say, and will counter that the rabbi doctors and maskilim were “gedolim” too, and who am I to say who is authentic and who isn’t
to that I would say, that going back to…say, shulchan aruch’s time, there were few controversial figures. the ones who I say are valid were validated by the ones who followed that time period. the maskilim were derided by the same ones who were validated by those previous generations.January 2, 2023 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #2153390
At the center of our different structures is the word Observant versus the word Orthodox. They don’t align well. You are pulling the measuring string to say that not all forms of orthodoxy are observant. And I’m stretching the yardstick to include more of the non-orthodox as observant.
It’s worth mentioning that the schism between Orthodoxy and Conservative is not an accepted fact throughout the USA. In other countries it doesn’t exist at all.
Even in the Northeast, there is no easy rule for which Orthodox Congregation is more observant.January 2, 2023 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #2153396
Now here is how we see the breakdown.
I have it as:
1% yeshivish standard.
Barely anyone who can claim authentic Judaism.
You have it as:
5% ideologically ordained by HashemJanuary 2, 2023 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2153407
I wouldn’t say a lot of what you think I would say.
But to play along, …… To which I would say the Beis Yoseif himself was aware of three different struggles for legitimacy among the leaders of the Jewish Communities of his day.
Even if I would concede to your version of history, it would still not help with when the gedolim split their opinions. Like AH”U or the fallout of Shabbsai Tzvi. And you would have to leave the Ramchal out, because nobody supported him in his lifetime.
In our day, a lot of the struggle isn’t about authenticity. It’s about balance.January 2, 2023 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2153403
Your assuming minhagim are part of the halachic system. I tend to view it more as it’s own system.
We see those three (covering, tv, kiddush,) examples the same way, but I won’t use the word ‘justified’. I would substitute ‘accepted’.January 2, 2023 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2153401
Your method boils down to who is included and who is not. As if Torah Observance was shoe kind of competition based on participation. The idea that it could be done entirely different by various groups is beyond your thinking. But if it actually in some instances occurred that way, you have all there mechanisms why it’s not real. Which makes your whole system very shaky. Many generations of Yidden made do with Divine Revelation and the prominence of Torah Study.
I really have no idea why you need this cumbersome system of popularity and ideology as governed by the implied displeasure of the gedolim.
And I’m really confused how such thinking has found such a strong home in the yeshivos of today.January 3, 2023 8:21 am at 8:21 am #2153498
the ramchal was an exception, and was accepted shortly after his petirah. The Gaon greatly magnified his standing, as well.
Most other leaders of the torah world, from the nosei keilim, to rav akiva eiger, chasam sofer, gaon, etc…were directly connected to those above and below them.January 3, 2023 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2153752
Exactly what I need to make all my points!
So the system that you keep using to care your opinions on, is not foolproof. It depends on how one views the individual pieces inside of it. I have no complaint on you viewing it your way. Just that others who don’t share your (or my) ideology, can’t be faulted for viewing the pieces differently. Historicity is often silly. Me, you, and other too, all see themselves as verified by history.
In other words, while I don’t know any group that does not use the Ramchal, I do know that there is a difference of opinion as to why he was rejected and then accepted. Similarly, the different sides [of what you see as the cardinal three lines (Chabad, Zionism, Modernity.)] of orthodoxy – although you see only one of them as clearly supported by the historical system – are all founded on the same historical realities. They can’t be forced into one side of the issue without blunt force resulting in trauma to the historical record.January 4, 2023 1:47 am at 1:47 am #2153759
Nom, you seem very casual about admitting conservative and other “branches” of disbelieving jews into the valid Torah camp.
There are more orthodox vs. conservative synagogues now than there were 20, 30 years ago – the fact that most Jews aren’t Orthodox seems to mean to you that there should be some validity in non-orthodox jewish movements.
For the record, you believe that there is a type of legitimacy in conservatism, even though they do not believe in the ikkarim and constantly change halacha?
Perhaps you’re a hybrid of saul lieberman and neo chabad wrapped in one package. If anything, it’s outliers who still ponder the words of shmuel david luzzato, shlomo Yehudah rappaport, Abraham heschel, etc…who are the tiny, insignificant minority, falling into obscurity amid the towering tidal waves of normative Torah spreading throughout the world.
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