November 21, 2021 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #2031410
There were 8 generations of Amoraim. How did they fit all the generations in the same Gemara? There was one edition-and then the next generation edited and added? There are Machlokesim between Rav & Shmuel (First Generation), Abaya & Rava (4th generation), and all the amoraim are in the gemara. How did it work?November 21, 2021 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #2031474anonymous JewParticipant
It was possible because Talmud Bavli wasn’t written down until about 500 c.e.November 21, 2021 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2031508ujmParticipant
AJ: It existed in unwritten form long before it was written.November 21, 2021 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #2031519
So people just added certain statements and opinions of Amoraim throughout the generations?November 21, 2021 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #2031522
Look at the Rabbenu Bachaya at the end of Parashas Ki Siso on al pi hadevorim hoelo korati itecha bris, how only the minimum was written down, necessary for their understanding, originally and as the generations became weaker more and more was required to be written down. He explains with this the expression chasurei mechseira vehacha ketana,where it was written down on purpose in a brief fashion.November 21, 2021 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #2031523
“AJ: It existed in unwritten form long before it was written.”
What AJ wrote answers the question.November 21, 2021 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #2031535
“So people just added certain statements and opinions of Amoraim throughout the generations?”
Added? Added to what?
Every Jewish boy studied the Mishna, by repeating it (with a tune) until he knew it well. There was no Sefer Mishnayos. (That’s right. If you want to argue, start a new thread.) Once they knew the Mishnah they would join a Yeshiva and discuss everything they learned. They would lesrn.from their rebbes what the previous generations had to say, and what the Halachah is. They would learn how to interpret and resolve certain hard Mishnayos and Braysos.
Then, they would argue and discuss new issues that came up, as well as weighing previously given interpretations. Those that rose to the top and became Roshei Yeshiva would teach all this old and new material to the next generation.
Obviously, students of different rebbes would land up with different interpretations and even, at times, different versions of earlier statements (or, more commonly, different attributions).
Eventually, Rav Ashi along with Ravina made one coherent Talmud, incorporating and ironing out everything that was taught until then. After him, the next generation committed it to writing.
The next few generations, the רבנן סבוראי, edited it to give it one language, to fill in steps to make it easier to follow, added some Sugyos (i.e. beginning of Kedushin) and stuck in a few explanations.
The generations following that are the Geonim, who were mostly occupied with Halachah. They also had many points that were passed down and weren’t written in.November 21, 2021 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #2031573
Sorry if you understood me wrong-I didn’t mean ‘added’. I mean there are different generations mixed up in the gemara, so how did it work? You might not be understanding me clearly…November 22, 2021 2:23 am at 2:23 am #2031726
What exactly is not clear?
I’m asking “Added to what”, since you are implying that there was a Sefer that had to be re-edited each generation. But it wasn’t so.November 22, 2021 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #2032078KuvultParticipant
I heard a shiur on this from an expert. He said Baal Peh never meant it couldn’t be written down. It meant it couldn’t be published. The Amoraim could and did write notes on what they were learning (just like students today, some less, some more). When it came time to officially publish it, the notes from various Rabbonim were put together to make one standardized copy.November 22, 2021 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #2032099
Before Rebbi, Torah Shebaal Peh was passed on orally. When Rebbi saw that it will be forgotten, he allowed to write down what was necessary for understanding. As the generations became weaker more and more had to be written down. I heard from my rebbi, that we have no seforim from Rav Nasson Adler ztz’l the Chasam Sofer’s rebbi, as he had a photographic memory and believed that for him it is forbidden to write it down as a dot placed in the margin of the gemora was enough.November 22, 2021 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2032124
As explained by the Rabbenu Bachaya above. starting with the words Verabbenu Hakadash, that for the chachmei hamishna, mishna scholars the gemora was obvious and did not need to be written down but for Revina and Rav Ashe it became necessary. It could be based on the phrase, syag lachachma shtika, the wise only say or write what is required for understanding.November 22, 2021 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2032320Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Kivult, this seems to be the case that some Tannai had their own private records, but it is clear tha they were incomplete. For example, a recent daf had it hat R Akiva knew about machloket between b’Shammai and b’ Hillel but did not remember who said what.
r Ashi is considered to be of generation that organized Bavli, butI think academics find several later generations continued editing.November 22, 2021 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #2032340
Kuvult, they were allowed to jot some personal notes down in order not to forget. It was not common, and was merely used as a self reminder. Never was it taught from text.November 29, 2021 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2035757
I’m not starting a new thread (too lazy). But I disagree with the claim that there was no Sefer Mishnayos.
I think the evidence shows that there was a text of Mishnayos (a proto-Mishnah) before Rebbi. If Rebbi didn’t actually write down the Mishna, then what was his innovation?November 29, 2021 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #2035755
Ravina and Rav Ashi organized the Bavli. Ravina died a good number of years after Rav Ashi. There was some minor editing afterward (what we call the Rabban Savaroi). There are some academics that argue for more extensive editing after Ravina and Rav Ashi but that isn’t based on any science. It’s not something they “found.” It is based on rayos from Shas (and is not very persuasive).
To answer the OP. The theory that made the most sense to me is that there was an earlier proto-Gemara that was composed (but not written) with specific language to remember. I’ve seen it argued that Abaya and Rava composed the proto-Gemara. But every scholar in every town had comments and a mesora on every aspect of the Mishna and the proto-Gemara. Rav Ashi and Ravina gathered as many chachomim as they could to create a final version of explanations and comments on the Mishna. They edited these together to form Talmud Bavli.
The generations immediately after them wrote down the Talmud Bavli (along with some further edits) and shipped copies to Jewish communities far and wide.November 29, 2021 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2035777AviraDeArahParticipant
On aizehu mekoman, i saw one of the meforshim say that it’s an “old” mishnah because there’s no machlokes….ayn shomNovember 29, 2021 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2035776AviraDeArahParticipant
Ben, there is a lot of material in the mishnah that definitely predated rebbe. What rebbe did was:
Get together all of the chachamim in his generation and collect each one’s mesorah(see bartenuras hakdoma)
Took the words that had been recited and memorized and edit them together; cutting and pasting essentially.
Paskened according to one shitah and made that shitah a stam mishnah or “chachamim omrim” (see mesechta beitzah 2b)
Ordered them by topic and sub topic (seder and mesechta, perakim etc)
Decide which material should be excluded from the core and left to braysos
Fix up any mishnayos that may have had errors
There’s a machlokes if rebbe wrote down the mishnayos physically or just did the above and make it the standard for klal yisroel going forwardNovember 29, 2021 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #2035894
There’s actually no evidence of a written Mishna, and plenty of evidence for the lack thereof. Last Daf Yomi round, I jotted down some notes on this as I made my rounds.
Before Rebbe it was like I wrote above about was it was before Rav Ashi. They always studied Talmud — the reasoning and proofs of the Halachah as well as Halachic statements. Every Rebbe taught Mishnayos to his Talmidim. This is the summation of the Halachos that he received from his Rebbes or had ruled on. This led to a situation in which any two people had a completely unrelated Mesora.
Rebbe brought everyone together. This was a tremendous undertaking. As it says, only Rebbe was able to pull this off with his wealth, government connections and peaceful time period. He had everyone recite what they had received from their Rebbe. Then, he painstakingly worked everything out and formed one solid, coherent Mishnah that should be the standard. From then on, that was what every child was taught and memorized.
Two more points. It appears that the titles of Mesachtos predated Rebbe. We find in the end of Horios how Rabban Gamliel organized Uktzin overnight. This tells you that it was a topic with a title (unless the Gemara was speaking shorthand), and that there was no set Mishna yet.
The other point is that the Gemara says in several places that the Mishna is Rebbe Meir according to Rebbe Akiva. This means that Rebbe used Rebbe Meir’s Mishna as his basis. On top of that he could have rejected parts and added even large sections.
Even if you’d say that he went ahead and wrote it, that was not his monumental achievement. But he didn’t.November 30, 2021 12:01 am at 12:01 am #2035921
There is plenty of evidence that Rebbi wrote down the Mishnah. Primarily, the mesorah of the Rishonim (e.g. the Rambam) that Rebbi wrote it. And although Rav Sadya Goan is ambiguous, the better reading (IMHO) is that he supports the Rambam’s mesorah.
But my point was that you see that there was a proto-Mishnah that was organized to a substantial degree before Rebbi. Not just by topic but in specific wording. There are machlokisim within a mishnah about what the stam portion of the mishnah means. That means the Tanayim–in generations before Rebbi–were operating off the same text.
So it could be that Rebbi simply organized/composed a universal wording incorporating the disputes of the recent generations. But then his work wasn’t all that innovative. He was just continuing a process that Rabban Gamliel (and others) had done in previous generations. But if you say that he wrote it down, changing Torah Shbal Peh to being written, it was truly monumental and worthy of reputation Rebbi has in our mesorah.November 30, 2021 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2035930Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Presumably Rebbe used his students to help in writing, same as Chafetz Chaim for Mishna Berurah. As a reference. Rabban Gamliel had 1000 people learning Torah ands 1000 Science in his household.
References to forgetting or being unsure is a good hint what was unwritten. In a recent daf, R Akiva knew of a machlokes between b’Hillel and b’Shammai but was not sure who is which side. edited
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.