Chassidic Shul with Late Mincha

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  • #608147
    abc12345
    Participant

    My new shul does mincha/mariv 20 minutes after shkia. Can someone pls explain where this ruling is from.

    #932895
    RushLimbaugh
    Member

    There are shittos that hold of that later zman. (I believe it includes Rabbeinu Tam.)

    #932896
    147
    Participant

    There are shittos that hold of that later zman. (I believe it includes Rabbeinu Tam.)

    But seriously excludes the Mishno Beruro, who is incredibly emphatic about how critical it is to pray Mincho [Not just commencing but terminating the Amido] prior to sunset.

    Yet please note however, that the Mishno Beruro makes no major issue about Maariv BiZemano V Early Maariv, nor of Schacharis before sunrise V Schacharis after sunrise.

    Ordinarily, when confronted with 2 scenarios, 1 being with a Minjan but at a worse Zeman V a better Zeman b’Yechidus, praying at the Minjan always overrides the other preferable factor.

    However:- 2 exceptions:- a) Mincho must be before sunset even B’Yechidus rather than with a Minjan after sunset; b) If someone is going on a long distance journey, even if he will reach his destination before the end of the Zeman of the current Tefiloh and be able to pray that current Tefilo at his destination with a Minjan, he must still pray that current Tefilo prior to setting off on his journey even if b’Yechidus.

    However, even in the case of Friday Chanukah Mincho, it is better to pray with a Minjan after candle lighting than before candle lighting b’Yechidus.

    #932897
    takahmamash
    Participant

    I used to daven at a shtieble where we’d daven mincha at the proper time, followed by ma’ariv. As we were leaving afterwards, another group was coming in to daven mincha.

    #932898
    akuperma
    Participant

    The Mishnah Brurah is the source for Litvaks (Misnagdim). If you hold by it, you probably should not go to a hasidic shul since they have different holdings, some of which result in davening later than misnagdim.

    #932899
    Geordie613
    Participant

    The short answer is there aree two zmanim for shkia. The regular sunset is the usual shkia, but there is another time later, just before the geonim nacht called the second shkiah, which is generally held of by chasidish communities. Until just after the war they used this time for kabolas shabbos as well.

    It is well known that the Satmar Rov Zt”l and Reb Aharon Kotler Zt”l came to an agreement in the 50’s when they both lived in Williamsberg, where the chasidim would be mekabel shabbos at the first shkia, and the litvishe would keep rabeinu tam zman for moitzoei shabbos. This is why the yeshivishe crowd in the US generally holds RT zman after shabbos.

    #932900
    on the ball
    Participant

    If you daven Mincha after Shkia you’re standing on strong shoulders – both the Mechaber and the Rema pasken that this is OK.

    #932901
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “My new shul does mincha/mariv 20 minutes after shkia.”

    According to the poskim they rely on, it is not after shkiya.

    #932902
    abc12345
    Participant

    Thank you everyone for the information.

    @apushatayid after researching it; this is what I discovered.

    #932903
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Research a little more. Just because it is your shkiya, it does not mean it is their shkiya.

    #932904
    Artiste
    Participant

    RT shkia is as a generall rule approx 20mins before nacht.

    However if you daven mincha after shkia, be careful not to daven maariv before nacht straight after.

    #932905
    bp27
    Participant

    There is nothing Chassidish about following this Shitta. This was the accepted opinion among all of Ashkenazic Jewry for hundreds of years (see a detailed list in Sefer Yisroel V’Hazmanim).

    By the way in Breuer’s in Washington Heights the daily minyan for Mincha is after Shkiah! I don’t think they are very Chassidish.

    #932906
    on the ball
    Participant

    Artiste: With respect, your statement is inaccurate as even if you daven mincha before shkia but after Plag you should wait until nacht for maariv.

    #932907
    Geordie613
    Participant

    bp27:

    Of course you’re right that it not only chassidim who follow this shita. All i was saying is generally, chasidim follow ‘2nd skiah’. Most non-chasidim among the ashkenazim, i.e. litvish and ‘yekkish’/yotzei ashkenaz are makpid to daven before first shkiah, like the mishna berura.

    The original yekkish minhag is based on the maharil and others, which is older than the shulchan oruch and rema, and that doesnt actually mention shkia as a limit for davening mincha. This is why kehilos like Breuers and other yekishe kehilos daven after shkiah.

    I’ve never been there for shabbos, but i doubt they are mekabel shabbos after 1st shkiah like some chasidish places do. Please could someone confirm this.

    #932908
    bp27
    Participant

    Aaron Chaim – There are no places, Chassidish or not, that do melocho after the shkiah. I don’t know where you get this that there are chasidish places that are mekabel shabbos after the first shkiah (I assume you are referring to doing melachah, not davening Kabbolas Shabbos).

    This has been the case since at least World War I. Even before WWII, there were virtually no kehillos left that were meikil like Rabeinu Tam in regards to Kabbolas Shabbos.

    (There are exceptions in the case of a a baby born bein hashmoshos Erev Shabbos, depending on which Chassidus, whether a bris is made the following Shabbos or not).

    #932909
    gotbeer
    Member

    Viznitz and Stolin hold of the first shkiah.

    #932910
    old man
    Participant

    The correct interpretation of Rabbeinu Tam is that neither the early nor the late “shkiah” refer to what we commonly call “sunset”.

    #932911
    bp27
    Participant

    old man – The “first” shkiah, or Tchilas Shkiah, according to Rabbeinu Tam is sunset. From where do you see otherwise?

    #932912
    Geordie613
    Participant

    bp27:

    You’re probably right that kehilos are not meikil, but individuals may be.

    #932913
    old man
    Participant

    Dear bp27,

    Thanks for asking. Indeed, your understanding is the prevalent one, however, it seems to be incorrect.

    Sources:

    1.Sefer Hayashar, siman 221

    2. Book by Rav Zinni of Haifa, Shitat Rabbeinu Tam b”ven Hasmashot

    3. Hama’ayan, Vol. 200, presentation by Rav Yaakov Levinger

    A synopsis: According to all, tzet hakochavim follows ben hashmashot, and is defined by three medium-sized stars.

    The issue is to resolve the two lengths of bein hashmashot, one 3/4 mil, the other 4 mil. Rabbeinu Tam resolves this contradiction by postulating a thick window or tunnel which the sun goes through. The first window is when the light of the day starts dimming (way before sunset).The second is when the sun exits the end of the window or passageway. This is tzet hacochavim, no light is left. What we call sunset is somwhere in between, but neither the entrance into the tunnel, nor the exit from it.

    The upshot is essentially twofold:

    1. All times are counted backwards from when the stars appear, which is the ony universally agreed upon ( agreed upon by all the sugyot in the gemara) event.

    2. What counts is not the position of the sun, but rather the amount of light still experienced on Earth. This amount of light is influenced by the setting of the sun, but there is a diminishing of light even before sunset, and still a considerable amount of light after the sun sets. It is this gradual change of lighting that Rabeinu Tam considers.

    I know this is different than what is practiced and taught. Please read at least the Sefer Hayashar and one of the other sources (they both quote the sefer hayashar anyway). It will explain everything, including those Rishonim who understood Rabeinu Tam correctly, and those Achronim who did not.

    #932914
    Ephraim
    Participant

    My new shul does mincha/mariv 20 minutes after shkia.

    What do they do with it? Do you not mean daven mincha? We daven Mincha every day 10 minutes before Plag and Maariv right after!

    #932915
    bp27
    Participant

    old man – Yhank you for the reply. In actuality what you are saying is not universal. Yes, what you are saying is the shittah of the Minchas Kohen (which was the prevalent minhag in Germany and Hungary), that all the calculations are calculated backwards from the actual tzeis hachochavim.

    There were however shittos that used a fixed sunset and 72 minutes after sunset, regardless of the visual stars. This was the prevelant minhag in Galicia, and is followed today by Satmar, Belz, Klausenberg, and others. By the way, the simple reading of the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch seems to follow this view.

    #932916
    old man
    Participant

    Oh yes, the opinion I presented is far fom universal, it is still a minority opinion, but I feel it may eventually be accepted in lumdus theory. I have no doubt that the Satmar and others will not give this interpretation the time of day (no pun intended), however strong the argument may be.

    The flaw in waiting 72 minutes from what we see as sunset is that there is agreement in all gemara sugyot that bein hashmashot ends at three medium sized stars. At that point, it is night, period. Throughout the year, 72 minutes post sunset is approximately 30 minutes past three-star appearance time. As is plain as one can see, 72 minutes after sunset, especially in the Middle East, is as dark as dark can be, and cannot possibly represent the end of bein hashmashot. Without saying this time-table is ridiculous, it certainly is logically untenable.

    A close look at Rabbeinu Tam’s own words (not just quotes in his name in Tosfos and other Rishonim and Achronim) clearly shows that his two-shkiah solution, besides being a stroke of innovative genius, refers to the sun entering the thick corridor (rakia) and still being seen (first shkiah),until there is no light left , significantly after the sun is no longer seen (second shkiah). The end point, though, is three stars and no later. Astronomical/Visible sunset occurs without halachic consequences.

    That said, any further explanations on my part would not do justice to the painstakingly thorough treatment the two illustrious rabbonim I sourced above independently gave to this subject. I will allow their published works to convince you. Or not, hakol l’shem shamayim.

    #932917
    Sam2
    Participant

    bp27: Umm… that’s not quite true. Many in Kiryas Yoel do Melacha after what we would call Shkiya. I have also been to several smaller communities where they do the same.

    #932918
    chevron
    Member

    So what? They have a valid shitta.

    #932919
    bp27
    Participant

    old man – In regards to calling those who say that in the Middle East Tzais is 72 after the visible shkiyah “ridiculous” and “logically untenable”, please don’t forget that the Mechaber clearly states that Tzais is 72 minutes after the sun is not visible (OC 261:2).

    Since he lived in Eretz Yisroel, I hesitate to call his opinion “ridiculous” or “logically untenable”.

    #932920
    Sam2
    Participant

    bp: Many hesitate to say such things about the Mechaber’s opinions. However, it is clear that the Pashtus of the Mechaber’s opinion in this is untenable. It cannot be that you look outside, see pitch blackness, and still call it Yom Gamur. It just can’t be. I don’t know what P’shat is. But I do know that P’shat cannot be the standard assumption.

    (By the way, why do some people start reading fixed minutes into random places in the SH”A? These 72 minutes should be Z’maniyos, just like every other time the Mechaber mentions minutes.)

    #932921
    chevron
    Member

    You certainly cannot have any taainas on anyone following the Mechaber’s psak.

    #932922
    old man
    Participant

    I am used to being called a mezalzel b’chvod chachomim, and I can handle that. But this time, I in no way was referring to the Mechaber, nor do I think his position is ridiculous or logically untenable.

    My understanding of the Mechaber is totally different.The mechaber states, ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????

    Those are the words. Whereas you are interpreting shkias hachamah to mean sunset, I do not. I already showed how Rabbeinu Tam postulated two different shkiot hachamah, when neither of them referred to sunset.

    Furthermore, if the Mechaber understood like you, all he had to say was , ???? ????? ????? and we would all yell, Of course! Sunset!. But no, he talks about a hatchalah. What hatchalah? The sun sets and it’s gone! Beginning and end within a minute or two! Second, why the explanation ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ? Any child can see that after the sun sets it is no longer seen on the land!

    The answer is that the Mechaber is not talking about the sun setting, but rather the point in time, way before the sun sets, where it’s light does not shine brightly on the earth ??? ???? ???? ?? ????, where it’s effectiveness is very muted, but before it sets. This is hatchalat hashkiah, and is exactly the way I (not me, but the sources I mentioned) explained Rabbeinu Tam. This period is 3.25 mil and is still vadai yom. Bein hashmashot is after this period, some time after the sun sets, and is only 0.75 mil. How are these periods related to sunset? They are not related. Bein hashmashot is simply 0.75 mil before three stars. Tchilat shkiah is 4 mil before three stars. The Mechaber holds like Rabbeinu Tam, but not the Satmar version. That is pshat, and it answers all problems, at least according to Rabbeinu Tam.

    Again, according to this line of reasoning, Rabbenu Tam’s tzet is three stars, just like everyone else. I reiterate, calling darkness vadai yom is ridiculous and logically untenable. Neither Rabbeinu Tam nor the Mechaber hold that darkness is day.

    To Sam the Scholar and Anav, I hope this explanation helped to understand the Mechaber and Rabbeinu Tam.

    #932923
    old man
    Participant

    Another point, for Rabbeinu Sam. I also don’t know why these are not sha’ot zmaniyot. I’m sure you are familiar with the Chasam Sofer’s long tshuva explaining when we use 60 minute hours and when we use sha’ot zmaniyot. I don’t remember off hand what he says about this, but it definitely makes sense that it’s zmaniyot. However,at least in Israel, the difference is almost negligible regarding tzet hacochavim and ben hashmashot.

    Furthermore, as you may have hinted, who says a mil is 18 minutes? maybe it’s 20,or 22? Then, 4 mil becomes 88 minutes. 88 minutes after sunset in Tzfat? As night as night can be. Not day.

    #932924
    sam4321
    Participant

    Abc12345: The Mishna Brurah 233:14 says one should daven byechidis rather than daven after sunset.However, he says bdieved one could rely on those who argue on those hold only up to shkia.It comes out one could be meikel up until 20 min after shkia(he writes up until ??? ??? ??? ???.Rav Avigdor Nebontzal says if one does not hold ?”? for motzai shabbas then one can’t be somech on this because of ??? ??? ????? ?????.

    AaronChaim: Rav Moshe already said that ?”? is preferred,isn’t that the litvishe?

    #932925
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sam4: Rav Moshe says R”T is preferred but changes what R”T said because it cannot be that there’s pitch blackness and it’s not night yet.

    Old man: I’ve heard that explanation before. It’s probably P’shat. But once again, I have to be very hesitant before saying anything definitive on this subject. Also, calling a Mil 18 minutes really only works if you assume the SH”A is sometimes talking in fixed hours. 24 works much better (in just about every Rishon) and is very clear from the Be’ur Hagra (I forget which Siman but it’s a S’if 2; it’s the one where the SH”A talks about Shkia), assuming that it’s Zmaniyos and when the SH”A says 3/4 Mil he means 18 Zmaniyos minutes. Rabbi Dr. David Shabtai had an article about this in one of the YU Torah publications (maybe there’s a Kol Tzvi on Shabbos or Bein Hashmashos or something) and his P’shat really seems the most likely.

    #932926
    sam4321
    Participant

    Sam2: I understand that,but wasn’t Rabeinu Tam talking about Eretz Yisroel. The time of Tzeits is different in different regions.So in reality tzeits can be earlier than the classic 72 shiur. Also the Gra holds the shuir is much shorter than the classic shuir.

    #932927
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sam4321: In E”Y it’s much shorter than in New York, even during the summer. If 72 minutes is for E”Y then New York can be hours. It just doesn’t work.

    #932928
    sam4321
    Participant

    Sam2: I hear,so how do you explain Rav Moshe in Rabeinu Tam.

    #932929
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sam4: I don’t. I think he felt that a Dachuk reading of the words was untenable and admits that we can’t really understand it, but chose that the physically untenable P’shat was better than the P’saht that’s Dachuk in the reading of the words. And even so, he has to reinterpret Rabbeinu Tam. Because, Sof Kol Sof, the Pashtus of the Shittah is one of the most Dachuk Shittos out there in Kol HaTorah Kullah. We can’t really figure it out.

    #932930
    sam4321
    Participant

    I hear,but do you agree he was only talking about Eretz Yisroel?

    #932931
    Geordie613
    Participant

    About the logic of the 72 minutes…

    R Meir Posen in his sefer Or Meir has a whole kuntres about this inyan, called kuntres haneshef, and he holds 72 minutes is not uniform across the whole year in all places. It will be longer or shorter according to where you are. So in places like Gateshead, there is no RT nacht all summer long, as it never gets that dark, but there is a reddish tinge in the sky all night, in June july august.

    Dayan AD Dunner told me that we are noheg the 72 minutes uniform, across the whole year and in all places. It is not based on calculations, but is just 72 minutes. That is how R’ Aharon instituted it in the US yeshivish kehillos.

    According to this, sometimes it comes out BEFORE motzoei shabbos in the middle of summer in Gateshead. Obviously, the 72 mins is only lechumra.

    #932932
    Sam2
    Participant

    Sam4: Sorry I didn’t see your response. (Actually, I feel like I responded to this already; maybe the mods didn’t let it through.) No, I don’t agree. Because that is even more physically untenable and would put Rabbeinu Tam Tzeis at several hours after nightfall in places like New York, which just cannot be either.

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