Chassidim

I guess it’s along the same lines as the Hoicher Shemone Esray of yeshiva-leit! Oh no, sorry! That’s because they’re in a rush to seider!

I used to daven at a Chassidish shtieble in Baltimore. I would daven mincha and arvit at the regular time; as our minyan was leaving, the Rebbe and others would enter to daven mincha.

I do not know the answer to this, and some Chassidim are makpid on davenining before the zman tefilah. Yet I believe this was done intentionally by the chassidishe rabbonim post WWII who believed that it is a necessary change.

The Rabbenu Taams’s view is that there are two shkios, one the normal sun set and 72 min after that is another shkiah when it is nigth. 13 1/2 min before the second shkiah or 58 1/2 min after the first shkiah is ben hashmoshos. There is the Geonim’s view that 13 1/2 min from the shkiah is night. The yereim’s view is earliest mostly followed Erev Shabbos that 18 min before is ben hashmoshas. Ben Hasahmoshos is 3/4 of a mil which is an argument in its measurement. Some hold 18 min, 22.5 or 24 min. The Geonim and Rabbenu Tam go by 18 min and the Yereim by 24 min. The GRA holds 22.5 min.

Should be above Mincha is davened from 6 and half hours of the beginning of the day not until.

I heard until 9 min after shkia and as the Chasam Sofer start davening togerher wirh the shliach tzibur to be mekayem tefila betzibur.

The zman of krias shma is an argument between the Magen Avraham and the GRA. First there is an argument in the length of the day. The Magen Avraham’s view is that the day starts from alos hashachar, dawn and ends at tzetz hakochovim, the coming out of the middle size stars. The GRA holds that the day starts at sunrise and ends at sunset. There is 72 min between dawn and sunrise. Also 72 min between sunset and tzetz hakochivim making the day according the Magen Avraham 12 hrs + 2 x 72 min or 12 hrs + 2 hrs + 24 min = 14 hrs and 24 min = 14.4 hrs. Divide 14.4 by 12 to find the shaos zmaniyos = 14.4/12 = 1.2. Zman of krias shma is 3 hours from alos hashachar 6 AM normal sunrise – 72 min = 6 – 1.2 = 4.8 + 3 x 1.2 = 4.8 + 3.6 = 8.4 which would be 8 + 2 x 12 min = 8 hr 24 min AM whereas according to the GRA is 6 AM + 3 hr 9 AM a difference of .6 or 36 min

Some chassidim hold the shikia is 60 minutes after sunset
Afterward is bein hashumushis you r aloud to Daven bein hashumushis mincha bidieved

Regarding shachris the later generation of Rebbys needed longer time to prepare for davinning so they daven later
And the results is that normal chasidim Daven after sof Zman tefilla today

CTRebbe, There is a schar for tefila bezmana and another for tefila see SA O’CH 89,1 which one gains until chatzos.

Reb Eliezer-The SA gets that language from the gemara in breachos. It means that whatever power and effectiveness your tefila had during the proper zman of tefila is gone, done, finito. You BLEW IT! That is not a heter to say if you want you can daven whenever you want. I aint no talmid chacham but I don’t think that the message of the gemara is that you can itentionally wake up every day past the proper zman and disregard all the halachic discussion about the proper zman tefila. It does not mean you get bonus points for davening before 10:30 AM.
What would you say about someone who does not wear tzitzis ? Its OK bec. they don’t need to wear a four cornered garment? Wearing a yarmalka has even less significance. It seems odd to be makpid on many non-halchachic issues but to totally ignore a whole section of shulchan aruch.

It is one thing if people say “What can I do, I have a hard time waking up in the morning” vs. we hold beshita that we will make a minyan past the time that halcha dictates. . How is that any different than the shita of the Reform and Conservative movements?

Dear CTR,

1) Reb Eliezer quoted correctly. It seems like you misunderstood him, because your explanation falls right into what he said.

2) Waking up late, is not the same discussion as davening late. For the sake of this topic, let’s assume that everyone rises before dawn, yet davens at different times.

3) Tefilla is a mitzvah at any point that the occasion arises. It is not specific to shacharis, mincha, and maariv. While it may be too late for shacris, it is never too late to daven.

4) Minaynim should be designated as times when the tzibbur will/is gathered. Using only halachic time considerations only, always seemed bizarre to me.

5) Every one of these minyanim is different than Reform, in that it centered on the Jew fulfilling his obligation, and not the requirements fulfilling the Jew. It is not comparable to the methods employed by the Conservative Movement, because there was no conscious decision to deviate. It followed a norm that preceded it. (See my post above.)

שולחן ערוך אורח חיים הלכות תפלה סימן קח סעיף ח
<ו> מי שלא התפלל בעוד שיש לו זמן להתפלל, מפני יא שסבור שעדיין ישאר לו זמן אחר שיגמור (כג) אותו עסק שהוא מתעסק בו, ובין כך ובין כך עברה לו השעה; * ט) ט’] וכן מי שהיה טרוד בצורך ממונו (כד) שלא יבא לידי הפסד, ועל ידי כך הפסיד מלהתפלל; י) וכן מי שהוא שכור ולא התפלל, כולם חשובים טז] אנוסים, ויש להם תשלומין. הגה: * <ז> מיהו לכתחלה לא יעבור זמן תפלה משום הפסד ממון (ת”ה סי’ ה’).

The Magen Avraham there s’k 11 says that forgetting is an onas as the argument in Bava Kama 26,2 about the stone that he had on himself and got up forgetting it according to the Nemukei Yosef there.

Some quotes from this topic:

“a different shkiya”

“there are two shkios, one the normal sun set and 72 min after that is another shkiah”

” hold the shikia is 60 minutes after sunset”

This is an error. Shkia means sunset. [שקיעת החמה Literally translates to; the submerging of the sun (below the horizon).] By definition, it has little to do with how dark it is in the sky, or the appearance of stars. The question of when is nightfall, is also not directly related to sunset. Everybody who lived before the advent of electricity, had no doubt about what sunset was, and when it is. I do not know when the terminology became confusing, but they certainly did not mean to say that the sun sets twice.

For Yidden it is important to know exactly when is nightfall, for basically one topic. it is of little consequence to zman tefillah. We [with one exception] are not waiting for nightfall to daven mincha. As both mincha and maariv can be accomplished before sunset.

It is a safek when night is so erev shabbos we are machmir like the Yereim to stop work 18 ninutes before the first shkia and motzei shabbos doing work by the second shkia when it is completely dark. Since davening is rabbinical, we daven maariv 12 minutes before. The Baal Hatanyeh changed his view.
In the SA he paskens like the Rabbenu Taam whereas in his Siddur like the geonim where there is only one shkiah and 13 1/2 minutes is ben hashmoshos. Those who go by the Rabbenu Taam can daven Mincha until 58 1/2 minutes before his shkiah and then Maariv.

It says safek chashecha and safek eino chashecha, asks the Tosfas Chadashim on the mishnayus, isn’t it obvious from safek chashecha that it is a safek because of safek eino chashecha? He gives a brilliant answer. Safek chashecha is erev shabbos and safek eino chashecha is motzei shabbos where for each one we are concerned not to violate shabbos.