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  • #1894549
    bochur613613
    Participant

    Ive hear many answers but can someone please explain to me why the chassidim daven later Shacris/Mincha/Maariv? What about Zman Tefilah/ Zman Kerias Shema/ Shkia or even Chatzos?

    #1894719
    asimpleyid
    Participant

    mincha is because they have a different shkiya. their shkiya is rabbeinu tam so they can daven much later. i have no answer for zman tefilla

    #1894774
    Yaapchik
    Participant

    I guess it’s along the same lines as the Hoicher Shemone Esray of yeshiva-leit! Oh no, sorry! That’s because they’re in a rush to seider!

    #1894778

    Yaapchik – so people can’t ask without being insulted? He asked respectfully, if you have an answer, give one.

    #1894787
    takahmamash
    Participant

    I used to daven at a Chassidish shtieble in Baltimore. I would daven mincha and arvit at the regular time; as our minyan was leaving, the Rebbe and others would enter to daven mincha.

    #1894799
    charliehall
    Participant

    It is a good question. I do not know the answer. There must be some Chasidim here who can answer.

    Regarding zmanim, Yerushalmi Berachot paskens according the Tanna Kama in the first Mishnah and against the conclusion of the Bavli that we really do need to recite the evening Shema prior to chatzot. We see Yerushalmi coming to different conclusions than the Bavli on a regular basis. What is the methodology used to chose which one to follow? Rambam follows Yerushalmi over Bavli on most issues in Seder Zeraim.

    #1894802
    2scents
    Participant

    I do not know the answer to this, and some Chassidim are makpid on davenining before the zman tefilah. Yet I believe this was done intentionally by the chassidishe rabbonim post WWII who believed that it is a necessary change.

    #1894801
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They emphasize to daven with proper preparation and clean body. Krias Shma is not related to the brochos as the Rashaba, so you can say krias shma without the brochos before. Mincha is davened until 6 and a half hours from the beginning of the day 6 AM normally around 12:30 and they hold that in the half hour from chatzos to Mincha one can still daven shacharis.

    #1894805
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rabbenu Taams’s view is that there are two shkios, one the normal sun set and 72 min after that is another shkiah when it is nigth. 13 1/2 min before the second shkiah or 58 1/2 min after the first shkiah is ben hashmoshos. There is the Geonim’s view that 13 1/2 min from the shkiah is night. The yereim’s view is earliest mostly followed Erev Shabbos that 18 min before is ben hashmoshas. Ben Hasahmoshos is 3/4 of a mil which is an argument in its measurement. Some hold 18 min, 22.5 or 24 min. The Geonim and Rabbenu Tam go by 18 min and the Yereim by 24 min. The GRA holds 22.5 min.

    #1894839
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The 6 1/2 hours comes from the sacrifice of the tamid which started at 12:30 PM called mincha gedaloh and sacrificed at 9 1/2 hours or 3:30 called called mincha ketana. According to the Rabenu Taam we we can daven mincha until his ben hashmoshos 58 1/2 min after the first shkiah when night starts.

    #1894845
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Should be above Mincha is davened from 6 and half hours of the beginning of the day not until.

    #1894851
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    So can should a ashkenaz person running late still run into a after shkia mincha to daven with a minyan or he already missed his ashkenaz psak halacha and missed already anyways to his halachic holding before sunset daily Mincha?

    #1894857
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I heard until 9 min after shkia and as the Chasam Sofer start davening togerher wirh the shliach tzibur to be mekayem tefila betzibur.

    #1894976
    5ish
    Participant

    Zeman tefillah is for sechar. However the halacha is that one must daven with the right mind set. Also according to Chassidus tefillah has ramifications in effecting the frumkeit of a person for the rest of the day. Therefore it is better to miss zeman tefillah but to daven a proper davening than to make zeman tefillah but for the tefillah to be improper.

    #1894982
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The zman of krias shma is an argument between the Magen Avraham and the GRA. First there is an argument in the length of the day. The Magen Avraham’s view is that the day starts from alos hashachar, dawn and ends at tzetz hakochovim, the coming out of the middle size stars. The GRA holds that the day starts at sunrise and ends at sunset. There is 72 min between dawn and sunrise. Also 72 min between sunset and tzetz hakochivim making the day according the Magen Avraham 12 hrs + 2 x 72 min or 12 hrs + 2 hrs + 24 min = 14 hrs and 24 min = 14.4 hrs. Divide 14.4 by 12 to find the shaos zmaniyos = 14.4/12 = 1.2. Zman of krias shma is 3 hours from alos hashachar 6 AM normal sunrise – 72 min = 6 – 1.2 = 4.8 + 3 x 1.2 = 4.8 + 3.6 = 8.4 which would be 8 + 2 x 12 min = 8 hr 24 min AM whereas according to the GRA is 6 AM + 3 hr 9 AM a difference of .6 or 36 min

    #1894986
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rashba’s view iis that as we don’t make a bracha directly on krias shma, so we can say it by the zman and the brochos at davenen but the Rabbenu Aharon Halevi and the GRA say they are related and therefore krias shma must be said togerher with the brochos.

    #1895096
    Shtreimlech1
    Participant

    Some chassidim hold the shikia is 60 minutes after sunset
    Afterward is bein hashumushis you r aloud to Daven bein hashumushis mincha bidieved

    Regarding shachris the later generation of Rebbys needed longer time to prepare for davinning so they daven later
    And the results is that normal chasidim Daven after sof Zman tefilla today

    #1895128
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    5ish- Zman tefila is a halcha. A person gets schar for keeping the halacha. He misses out on that schar if he violates the halacha.

    Your second argument also does not make sense. Most people, I assume chasidim included, do not need to wake up at 11:00 in order to have proper kavanah for tefila. It would be nice to believe that all chasidim davening after the proper zman in the morning wake up the same time as everyone else and just got so caught up in their preparations for davening that next thing you know “hey it’s 11:30! Whooops!”. I think it is a real stretch to assume that this is what really happens.

    #1895173
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CTRebbe, There is a schar for tefila bezmana and another for tefila see SA O’CH 89,1 which one gains until chatzos.

    #1895323
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Bochur,

    This question (mostly) pertained to eastern Europe as whole. A lot of the confusion predates chassidim. keeping track of the time was a communal occupation. As the reformation progressed, the concept of when the day starts and ends became more convoluted. This resulted in misunderstandings in all aspects of timekeeping. Mincha is the hardest tefillah to schedule. (Wake up and daven shacris. Do not go to sleep until after maariv.) It follows that mincha got pushed later as the clock became more flexible. (Read misunderstood.) Maariv had to get pushed back, as nobody ever davened maariv before mincha. As of the first part of the last century, it was still more common to come across maariv before shkia, than mincha after.

    The one that is not older than the chassidim, is shacharis. Before the advent of electricity and the modern city, everyone davened in the early hours of the morning. The halachic problem was davening too early. It is doubtful if there was (what we call) an eight o’clock minyan anywhere in the world three hundred years ago. The late shacharis started in Kotzk. They would rise for tikkun chatzos and say tehillim and then learn for the entire morning. Only after the townspeople started on their day, they would begin to daven until midday. Kotzk eventually devolved into Gur. After the war, the Imrei Emes put a stop to the late shacharis. While the late shacharis has spread to the yeshivaliet (With the notable exception of the sefardim.) and Flatbush et al, Gur still does not have any minyanim past the zman.

    #1895444
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer-The SA gets that language from the gemara in breachos. It means that whatever power and effectiveness your tefila had during the proper zman of tefila is gone, done, finito. You BLEW IT! That is not a heter to say if you want you can daven whenever you want. I aint no talmid chacham but I don’t think that the message of the gemara is that you can itentionally wake up every day past the proper zman and disregard all the halachic discussion about the proper zman tefila. It does not mean you get bonus points for davening before 10:30 AM.
    What would you say about someone who does not wear tzitzis ? Its OK bec. they don’t need to wear a four cornered garment? Wearing a yarmalka has even less significance. It seems odd to be makpid on many non-halchachic issues but to totally ignore a whole section of shulchan aruch.

    It is one thing if people say “What can I do, I have a hard time waking up in the morning” vs. we hold beshita that we will make a minyan past the time that halcha dictates. . How is that any different than the shita of the Reform and Conservative movements?

    #1895485
    no nonsense
    Participant

    The best is Scheiners in Monsey, especially in the winter. You can catch Shacharis and immediately after Mincha. I have personally seen this.

    #1895772
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear CTR,

    1) Reb Eliezer quoted correctly. It seems like you misunderstood him, because your explanation falls right into what he said.

    2) Waking up late, is not the same discussion as davening late. For the sake of this topic, let’s assume that everyone rises before dawn, yet davens at different times.

    3) Tefilla is a mitzvah at any point that the occasion arises. It is not specific to shacharis, mincha, and maariv. While it may be too late for shacris, it is never too late to daven.

    4) Minaynim should be designated as times when the tzibbur will/is gathered. Using only halachic time considerations only, always seemed bizarre to me.

    5) Every one of these minyanim is different than Reform, in that it centered on the Jew fulfilling his obligation, and not the requirements fulfilling the Jew. It is not comparable to the methods employed by the Conservative Movement, because there was no conscious decision to deviate. It followed a norm that preceded it. (See my post above.)

    #1895773
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Can anybody source this quote for me?

    “It is better to daven, not in the zman; than to daven not, in the zman.”

    #1895973
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    שולחן ערוך אורח חיים הלכות תפלה סימן קח סעיף ח
    <ו> מי שלא התפלל בעוד שיש לו זמן להתפלל, מפני יא שסבור שעדיין ישאר לו זמן אחר שיגמור (כג) אותו עסק שהוא מתעסק בו, ובין כך ובין כך עברה לו השעה; * ט) ט’] וכן מי שהיה טרוד בצורך ממונו (כד) שלא יבא לידי הפסד, ועל ידי כך הפסיד מלהתפלל; י) וכן מי שהוא שכור ולא התפלל, כולם חשובים טז] אנוסים, ויש להם תשלומין. הגה: * <ז> מיהו לכתחלה לא יעבור זמן תפלה משום הפסד ממון (ת”ה סי’ ה’).

    The Magen Avraham there s’k 11 says that forgetting is an onas as the argument in Bava Kama 26,2 about the stone that he had on himself and got up forgetting it according to the Nemukei Yosef there.

    #1896042
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer,

    your sources do not imply that it can be lechatchila do daven at a later hour.

    #1896048
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Some quotes from this topic:

    “a different shkiya”

    “there are two shkios, one the normal sun set and 72 min after that is another shkiah”

    ” hold the shikia is 60 minutes after sunset”

    This is an error. Shkia means sunset. [שקיעת החמה Literally translates to; the submerging of the sun (below the horizon).] By definition, it has little to do with how dark it is in the sky, or the appearance of stars. The question of when is nightfall, is also not directly related to sunset. Everybody who lived before the advent of electricity, had no doubt about what sunset was, and when it is. I do not know when the terminology became confusing, but they certainly did not mean to say that the sun sets twice.

    For Yidden it is important to know exactly when is nightfall, for basically one topic. it is of little consequence to zman tefillah. We [with one exception] are not waiting for nightfall to daven mincha. As both mincha and maariv can be accomplished before sunset.

    #1896876
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    n0mesorah, look up the Rabbenu Taam Pesochim 94,1 about the two shkiyos as pasked in
    SA O’CH 261,2. See the Minchas Kohen, Mavoh Hashemesh who paskens like the Rabbenu Taam. The Chasam Sofer paskens O’CH 80 like the Rabbebu Taam even erev shabbos lekulah.

    #1896883
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It is a safek when night is so erev shabbos we are machmir like the Yereim to stop work 18 ninutes before the first shkia and motzei shabbos doing work by the second shkia when it is completely dark. Since davening is rabbinical, we daven maariv 12 minutes before. The Baal Hatanyeh changed his view.
    In the SA he paskens like the Rabbenu Taam whereas in his Siddur like the geonim where there is only one shkiah and 13 1/2 minutes is ben hashmoshos. Those who go by the Rabbenu Taam can daven Mincha until 58 1/2 minutes before his shkiah and then Maariv.

    #1900609

    I heard until 9 min after shkia

    This is Reb Moshe’s shita about washing for Shalosh Seudos,
    according to Rabbi Simcha Bunim Cohen (The Radiance of Shabbos).

    #1900682
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says safek chashecha and safek eino chashecha, asks the Tosfas Chadashim on the mishnayus, isn’t it obvious from safek chashecha that it is a safek because of safek eino chashecha? He gives a brilliant answer. Safek chashecha is erev shabbos and safek eino chashecha is motzei shabbos where for each one we are concerned not to violate shabbos.

    #1901486
    Toi
    Participant

    “devolved”

    Nailed it!

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