November 15, 2010 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #593047
Why do Chassidim always vote for liberals (democrats)?
For example, Hillary Clinton won New Square by a 1400 to 12 margin. (american Daily)
I ask because a certain Chossid (who will remain nameless, but will be ignored if she starts to flame) has been pushing conservative values.
Now, I am all for conservative values (I am one myself, I think), but I see that Chassidim are not, in general.
So why is that, that we see Chassidim are true blue liberals?November 15, 2010 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #709573
Chassidim need more social services on average, so need to vote for democrats. New Square uses a LOT of social services.November 15, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #709574charliehallParticipant
In Israel, the religious parties are the biggest supporters of that country’s generous welfare state. That should be no surprise because the ideal state described in the Torah is a generous welfare state.November 15, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #709575oomisParticipant
SJS is right. When you utilize the social programs that are available, you need to ensure that liberal politicos will keep those programs in place for you, and financially solvent at that.November 15, 2010 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #709576HelpfulMember
The basis of this thread and the assumptions of the OP are factually incorrect.November 15, 2010 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #709577smartcookieMember
Chassidim want the funds from the govt.
Let’s not make it a general statement because myself and many more chassidim I know, vote republican.November 15, 2010 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #709578mythoughtsParticipant
I have three reasons that Chassidim vote for liberals
3. MulaNovember 15, 2010 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #709579
So far, everyone has said because they want government funds, which is a liberal concept.
One person says that Chassidim are not liberals.
So to that one person I ask for some sort of proof, and an explanation for the New Square (and other) votes for Democrats, which is a fact.
Perhaps there is a really good reason why conservatives would vote for Hillary Clinton?
Dr. Hall: Are you claiming the Torah promotes state based liberalism? Please back that up with sources as well. I am aware that there is Ma’aser Ani, but that was to be given on an individual basis by individuals, not by the state.November 15, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #709580
GAW, wasn’t there a pardon agreement with Clinton? Or was that Bill? I honestly forget.November 15, 2010 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #709581
GAW, wasn’t there a pardon agreement with Clinton? Or was that Bill? I honestly forget.
I’m not sure, and neither side admits to it (as far as I know).
But that might be a mitigating reason. I have heard a rumor that there was a taped call from a former felon (Chossid) saying to vote for Democrats because they are easier on crime/jail. (I don’t know if it is true or not).November 15, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #709582
And Chazer is cheaper.
I would hope that Yidden don’t act based on money.November 15, 2010 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #709583arcParticipant
as YWN posted on the main thread very astutely “jews care about social service issues more than social issues”November 15, 2010 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #709584Feif UnParticipant
There was a deal when Bill was finishing up as president. Hillary was running for Senator at the time. There were 4 people from New Square who were convicted of stealing $40 million from the government in various different types of fraud. The deal was that if New Square supported her, these 4 people would get pardoned by Bill before he left office.November 15, 2010 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #709585HelpfulMember
Gavra – if you’re against the money angle, you oppose Agudah know-towing to anti-moral candidates/politicians?November 15, 2010 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #709586
To the poster that calls him/herself helpful:
I have no angle.
I am awaiting your explanation as per why Chassidim vote Democrat (in general), but are not liberals.
If your answer is like everyone else (they do so for the money), please say so.
So that vote was to get people out of jail?
Perhaps it is as I have heard, that Chassidim vote Democrat because the Democrats are weak on crime.
If Rubashkin’s case would have been in San Fransisco, he would not have any problems.November 15, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #709587
This entire thread in shtus. Look at the real data. Specifically the NYC Board of Election results for the districts in Williamsburgh and Borough Park, are Republican leaning districts. In fact the most Republican in the entire city, with the possible exception of some parts of Staten Island (the smallest borough.)
Facts, people, facts.November 15, 2010 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #709588
To the poster who calls herself MF:
1) The entire world is not NYC (even though it may seem like it).
2) Please post specific results (how many voted on each side for the district).
3) Please explain the Hillary Clinton vote.
Thanks.November 15, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #709589says whoMember
Since when does New Square represent all chasidim?
Your OP doesn’t need an answer.November 15, 2010 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #709590
To the poster who calls himself guess who:
1) Are you also MF?
2) Do you have an answer for the New Square vote?
3) Do you believe the vote was atypical of Chassidim? If so, please explain.
4) Do you have any facts that back up your claim (for example, can you post results from Kiryas Yoel, with how many voted Democrat & how many voted Republican)?
Thanks.November 15, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #709591so rightMember
The NS Hillary vote was the mitzvah rabba of pidyum shvuyim, plain and simple. Yes there was an off the record deal with Bill and Hillary for a pardon. And well worth it, considering Slick Willie gave the pardon — something he would never otherwise have done.
It was an anomaly to normal voting patterns.November 15, 2010 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #709592
To the poster that calls him/herself SR, MF, Guess who & (as well to) helpful:
1) So you agree with the assessment of SJS & Feif Un that Chassidim vote Democrat because they are softer on crime, and that is a mitzva of Pidyon Shevuyim?
2) Can you please post actual data with sources backing up your claim that the vote was an anomaly? For example, the vote should have then been in the most recent elections (or for any other) pro-republicn, even for New Square.
Thanks.November 15, 2010 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #709593
gaw: I’m not SW.
Willi, BP, and KJ have the largest concentration of Chasidim in the U.S.November 15, 2010 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #709594so rightMember
The only time the mitzvah of PS was at issue, was NS 2000. Any other time crime considerations is at issue they vote for Republican for strong anti-crime positions Republicans take.November 15, 2010 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #709595
I agree with the concentraion. You have a good point.
Can you post results for these areas for the most recent election?
Also, do you explain the vote in NS like SJS etc.?
Thanks.November 15, 2010 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #709597
I’ve seen them on the NYTimes site after elections. I’d have to research where to get the results now, since the Times took them down apparently.November 15, 2010 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #709598says whoMember
you totally don’t get the point here. You have a question on a New Square vote, which doesn’t have any connection to chassidim in general.
By chassidim every chassidus or community decides on their own for whom to vote.
In BP it turns out that republican votes are very high.
I’ve seen in the past that you have misconceptions on chassidim.November 15, 2010 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #709599
GAW, its a lot easier to get a statistic on New Square because they are their own village. Its harder to get Williamsburg statistics because there are many non-chassidim living there and the stats get muddled.
I’m sure somewhere there are KJ votes.
And Jews traditionally vote democrat, that isn’t a Chassidish thing. But communities that rely on social services are more reliant on democrats and less reliant on thinking about the candidates.November 16, 2010 3:50 am at 3:50 am #709600charliehallParticipant
“Dr. Hall: Are you claiming the Torah promotes state based liberalism? Please back that up with sources as well. I am aware that there is Ma’aser Ani, but that was to be given on an individual basis by individuals, not by the state. “
Yes. In tractate Shekalim, communal authorities are given the responsibility of levying taxes on the community for education, public works, and support of the poor. Rabbi Moshe Tendler has proven that that support includes universal health care.
And there are many other examples where the Torah provides for something other than a laissez-faire state. The King can take your property without your consent. (That is frowned upon, as the example of Naboth’s vinyard shows, but the halachah is that the King does have that power.) Beit din can declare your property ownerless and give it to someone else — without any compensation to you. If people are traversing your property to get from point A to point B, you can’t stop them. If you live in Jerusalem, and someone knocks on your door during one of the pilgrimage festivals, that person sleeps in your home whether you like it or not. There is no permanent sale of land in Eretz Yisrael outside of cities. During the shimittah year, if people want to pick fruit from your orchard, you can’t stop them. Ditto if they want to collect leket, peah, or shich’chah. Overcharging your customers is asur, as is undercharging. Trying to take away someone else’s business is also asur; the Torah values the protection of existing businesses over the supposed virtues of competition.
This is NOT socialism; there remains a limited right to private property. But that right is not a fundamental one; it is an indirect right that stems from the fact that the Torah forbids me from taking something that isn’t mine. But as I pointed out, the Torah does not forbid a King or a Beit Din from taking your property! The founding fathers of the United States would have been horrified. The ideal Torah state would be better described as a welfare wtate with an intrusive government. There is a reason why the gemara in Yevamot singles out leket, peah, shich’chah and maaser oni as the commandments that must be taught to prospective converts. (I would have thought it would be Shabat, kashrut, and taharat hamishpachah.) Non-Jews do understand the “right” to property. But we Jews understand that in truth everything belongs to our creator who has essentially lent it to us. Nothing is really ours. And if we are called to share it with others, well….
I’ve been appalled at the number of frum-looking Jews who have adopted an approach to public policy that is more Ayn Rand than Moshe Rabbeinu. As these examples show, the Torah doesn’t emulate Trotsky — but it certainly is far from Rand’s hedonistic self-centered ideal.November 16, 2010 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #709601Josh31Participant
Everything has limits, including the government.
The amount the king could take in normal circumstances is 1/10.November 16, 2010 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #709602
I look forward to your data.
I would hope every frum jew does not think of Ayn Rand as ideal, or even close to it. Every Yid has a responsibility to the welfare of other Yidden, as well as others around him.
But even the taxation powers of Beis Din (which do exist) are not similar to the Government powers that we have now. Kupa and Tamchui are not welfare and MOFES. In addition, by keeping these to local Beis Dins, they were able to investigate each case before they actually gave them anything (with minor exceptions).
I see it more as an extension of those responsibilities vs. the Colossus we have now.November 16, 2010 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #709603asyyegerParticipant
It is true that historically Jews have voted democratic, mainly because of social issues. Remember, secular Jews were on the forefront of civil rights. But nowadays, the trend has shifted among frum Jews. I am involved in local politics and can tell you that many more Orthodox Jews are now registering as Republicans. Possibly this is attributable to the Republican family values agenda compared to the Democratic agenda that favors abortion and gay rights. Additionally, Republicans have historically been much better for Israel.
However, I agree that discreet groups that rely heavily on government services, be they at the school district level or higher, will vote for the politicians who will give them what they need.November 16, 2010 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #709604Josh31Participant
“does not forbid a King or a Beit Din from taking your property”
This was only to be used in extremely rare circumstances.
Look how Ahab was punished for abusing this power.
The King could execute anyone for for Mored B’Malchus, which included any act of disrespect or rebellion.
Charliehall, I am sure you would not want to see this power being used routinely.
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