April 28, 2019 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1720039
How would you explain to an outsider why Chassidim don’t sent their daughters to Beis Yaakov? What can be so different?April 28, 2019 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1720085
The Gerrer Chasidim send their daughters to Beis Yaakov of Ger. The Gerrer Rebbe started the Beis Yaakov movement together with the Chofetz Chaim.April 28, 2019 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1720082
What Chassidim send their daughters to is a Bais Yaakov, it’s just not part of the Bais Yaakov organization. It runs using the system popularized by Reb. Sara Schenirer ZT”L therefore it’s a Bais Yaakov.April 28, 2019 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1720087
Sarah Schenirer herself was Chasidish.April 29, 2019 12:35 am at 12:35 am #1720107
Their schools speak to their students in Yiddish while bais Yaakovs teach in EnglishApril 29, 2019 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1720103
Because they have a different perspective on the role of the woman. Beis Yaakov is preparing women to get a good education and be in a career to support a husband in learning. Chasidish girls aspire to be homemakers. If you can’t win the Beis Yaakov tznius and testing contests, it’s a disaster for your child.April 29, 2019 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1720101
Yseribus: What “Bais Yaakov organization” do you speak of?April 29, 2019 1:44 am at 1:44 am #1720126
@joseph the one mentioned in rashi on the posuk in shemos perek yud tes passuk gimmelApril 29, 2019 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1720307
The little I knowParticipant
A large percentage of Rebbetzins in America within the Chassidishe community who are of American birth or arrived in America in their youth attended Bais Yaakov. The Chassidishe communities, as they grew, created their own girls schools just as they created their own yeshivos. There were Chassidishe Rebbes who attended Yeshivas Rabbenu Yitzchok Elchonon. The preferences to be mechanech one’s children within their own communities is legendary, and is not newsworthy. Prior to much of the growth we see today, Chassidishe families patronized the Litvishe yeshivos, and girls attended the frum schools that existed at that time. I can provide many examples.April 29, 2019 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1720331
Joseph, while the Gerrer Rebbe and the CC were early supporters of Sarah Schneirer’s efforts, neither of those two Gedolim can be said to have started the BY movement. The innovator, originator and driving force of Beis Yaakov was Madam Schneirer herself. It is also noteworthy that, with the exception of the two aforementioned Gedolim, virtually the entire “frum” world (people like you, Joseph) were strongly opposed to her innovation.April 29, 2019 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1720496
Redleg: The Belzer Rebbe gave Sarah Schenirer a brocha to be successful in starting the Beis Yaakov schools before she began her efforts. She was a Belzer chosid and went to him for permission to begin her innovation.April 29, 2019 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1720538
Redleg is right. Revision of history in many areas of the frum past, especially bios, is shamelessly rampant and repugnant to the memory of the deceased and families. Brachos and all are great but Mrs. Schneirer herself was the founder. End of story.April 29, 2019 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1720584
Sarah Schenirer z”l was a Belzer. Her brother
went to Belz to ask for her and was given
permission and a brocha. It was the
Gerrer Rebbe z”l that helped her make it
happen and fully supported her in her efforts
But without Sarah Schenirer nothing would
have happened. So you are both correctApril 30, 2019 10:07 am at 10:07 am #1721014
I’m curious about the OP. Did you think Chassidishe girls didn’t go to school at all, or is the question just why many of them tend to call their Beis Yaakov’s something other than Beis Yaakov?April 30, 2019 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1721508
No, I know that Chassidic girls go to school. Just why isn’t everyone all mixed in one BY? Also what do you mean by their “BY”. Why are you referring to their schools as BY. I guess in my mind BY is a Litvish bastion.May 1, 2019 12:03 am at 12:03 am #1721523
Beis Yaakov has been a Chasidish/Litvish institution and system right from the founding until today. They aren’t mixed because there’s so many girls k”h that they need many Beis Yaakov schools. As such, many Chasidishe kehilos each have their own Beis Yaakov school. But, for example, Beis Yaakov of Boro Park, which is the oldest and largest Beis Yaakov today, is a very thorough mix of Litvish girls and Chasidish girls from many different chasiduses.
Nowadays even some Sefardic girls schools call themselves Beis Yaakov.May 1, 2019 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1721622
“No, I know that Chassidic girls go to school. Just why isn’t everyone all mixed in one BY?”
The same reason boys don’t all go to the same mixed yeshivas.
“Also what do you mean by their “BY”.”
It’s come to be a general term.May 1, 2019 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1721812
Beit Yaakov Ateret Torah is a Sefardic Beis Yaakov.May 1, 2019 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1721783
Too much propaganda?
putting aside Hungary or Galicia almost all supported the movement
matter of fact it was so obvious that most weren’t even sure what the Innovation was
Germany and Yavne already had existing before thisMay 1, 2019 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1721863
IITFT: Of course it was a major innovation. The Chofetz Chaim explicitly acknowledged so but said due the shas hadchak it was permitted. The Gemora, Rashi, Shulchan Aruch and throughout halacha there are stringent restrictions on teaching Torah to girls, which says tiflus (leading women to immorality) is the result of teaching them Torah.May 2, 2019 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1722310
It’s not like they’re learning gemara. Nobody ever said it’s assur to tell a woman how to keep kosher, Shabbos, etc.
I personally also don’t really see how it was such a big chiddush to have girls going to Jewish girls’ schools instead of public schools or homeschooling (presumably the alternative). The wikipedia on it makes it sounds like, at the time, girls had gotten so stupid they didn’t even know how to keep shabbos and therefore they had to start it as an emergency. I don’t buy that.May 2, 2019 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1722506
There always were girls who learned
The Innovation if there was, was as an official institution
As someone who was involved in a superior bais yaakov High School in North America for
some years previously ,one even presently can honestly weigh and debate whether girls being educated in institutions Is better than other options at least in theory
One fact that’s rarely considered in the Perennial discussions was that females had just gotten suffrage .
There therefore desperate need for them to be educated
iirc Frankfurt Had girls education institutionalized since 1853May 4, 2019 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1722919
There is a dispute in the Mishna Sotah 20a whether one is even allowed to teach Torah to women at all. The argument against the teaching of Torah to women states that if one does so, it is like teaching them Tiflus. Rashi comments that Tiflus means lechery, meaning the study of Torah will lead women to immorality. Rashi then cites the famous story of Bruriah, one of the greatest female scholars in Jewish history to prove his point. One day, Bruriah ridiculed the Gemara (in Kidushin 80b) which states that that women are lightheaded. Rabbi Meir, her husband, ordered his student to test Bruriah’s strength and try to seduce his wife. Bruriah caved in and when she realized what she had done, she hung herself.
Thus Rashi’s argument is that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. The Rambam agrees with Rashi’s take. Rambam also adds that when the chachamim had said, “He who teaches his daughter Torah, is as if he taught his daughter tiflus,”only applies to the oral law. The Rambam says that a man should not teach his daughters written law but if he does, it is not considered tiflus. The Shulchan Aruch follows this approach of Rambam.
The conclusion is that there are four areas within this law, as per Shulchan Aruch:
1. Women may not learn the Oral Torah
2. Women may learn the simple meaning of the Written Torah
3. Women may not learn the Written Torah in depth
4. Women must learn the laws that apply to them
Note that Rashi, Ramban, etc. are part of Torah Shebalpeh.May 4, 2019 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #1722932
Joseph, just to clarify, you’re purposely responding with an answer that has nothing to do with what we said, right?May 5, 2019 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1722947
Neville, I was demonstrating the incorrectness of your comment that it isn’t “a big chiddush to have girls going to Jewish girls’ schools instead of… homeschooling”. In fact, until the Beis Yaakov movement, it has been the Jewish tradition for thousands of years for mothers to homeschool their daughters in the needed (and permitted) subjects.May 5, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1723256
That’s not even the slightest bit similar to anything you said in your last comment.May 5, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1723264
Different language (many chassidim speak only yiddish)
Different minhagimMay 5, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1723284
OK, I know this is a stupid question, only worthy to be asked by an idiot like me, but I honestly don’t know the answer:
What, exactly, is a Bais Ya’akov? How is it different from any other girls’ school?
The WolfMay 6, 2019 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1723667
I know in Israel a school needs to meet a certain standard to be in on the “BY” club.
There are schools outside the system with BY standards.
But there are no schools within the BY system that don’t meet the criteria.
Sending a child to a BY school is basically knowing that they meet those standards.May 6, 2019 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1723710
You mean why would a school call itself a Bais Yaakov instead of just a “Jewish girls school?” Same reason a place would call itself a yeshiva or mesivta instead of a “Hebrew Day School.” The titles signal the type of institution.May 7, 2019 10:12 am at 10:12 am #1723831
You mean why would a school call itself a Bais Yaakov instead of just a “Jewish girls school?” Same reason a place would call itself a yeshiva or mesivta instead of a “Hebrew Day School.” The titles signal the type of institution.
So, in other words, it’s just branding?
The WolfMay 7, 2019 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1723956
Look at the end of Choshen Mishpot that the Darisheh brings from his mother about the lighting of candles on Yom Tov to make a brocho first. So, the mitzvos that apply to the women, they can learn by themselves in detail.May 7, 2019 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1724013
So, in other words, it’s just branding?
Basically.May 7, 2019 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1724028
It’s 100% branding.May 7, 2019 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1724056
observe how the Commentaries over the centuries interpreted
1) Women are prohibited from learning she’lo lishma
2) females ought not to learn pilpul or too much lomdus
3) Females are not to learn in an organized institutional setting
The Saba Kadisha always contended that his rebbe was his mother and her main rebbe in turn was ..her motherNovember 28, 2019 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1805734
What are some criticisms that Chasidim have against the Litvish?November 29, 2019 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1805847
I cannot imagine ANY parent, Litvish or Chasidish, enrolling their daughter in a yeshiva for girls by ANY name without preforming their own due diligence, talking to friends with children attending the school, checking any online reviews or ratings and even sitting in on a few classes if the rules allow. The name may be a good starting point (aka a Beis Yaakov versus a Day School) based on the hashkafah of the family, but given that today there may be choices for parents in larger metro areas, not all Beis Yaakovs offer the same degree of quality chinuch as others. Fortunately, not even the most traditional BY today literally subscribe to Yosef’s predictable mycogonistic spin on halacha discouraging a robust torah education for frum girls.November 29, 2019 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1805854
rationalizations people may attempt to give after the fact
there is no good answer
there is no good response
were busy complaining about safe spaces in colleges
We Invented the safe space before them
every Community had to make Their own narrow Echo chamberNovember 29, 2019 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1805855
The historical facts are that the Belzer Rebbe zy”a have her a brocha and go ahead. The Gerrer Rebbe zy”a not only gave her a brocha but took an active part in it all. The first Menahel in Warsaw was a Gerrer chusid that was put there by the Gerrer Rebbe
The Hungarian Rebbes were against it but the Gerrer Rebbe pushed it ahead. It is known that the Gerrer Rebbe told the Munkatcher that future generations will prove who was rightNovember 29, 2019 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1805856
GHD: There are many girl’s schools in New York that do not even teach Rashi since it is Torah Shebal Peh.November 30, 2019 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1805902
Azoiy: I see a much higher level of tznius and ehrlichkeit today among girls and women in Hungarian kehilos than from virtually any other frum demographic.November 30, 2019 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1805904
Yes Reb Yosef, but there are some that do teach Rashi and and more. Its a matter of parental choice to decide which school best serves their daughter’s needs and their hashkafah. I’d like to believe that parents that allow their daughter to attend a school where she might learn chumash and rashi and/or other meforshim are not placing their chelek of olam habah at risk. Shabbat shalomNovember 30, 2019 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1806002
Partially true. BY girls have nothing to be ashamed of BH al pi rov. In the end the Hungarian kehillos realized that they have no choice but to copy the BY modelNovember 30, 2019 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1806037
Azoiy: Specifically which Hungarian kehilos copied specifically which aspect of the BY model (that they originally didn’t have)?December 1, 2019 7:00 am at 7:00 am #1806075
What hasn’t been mentioned is that the collapse of the traditional model that allowed for the large scale ignorance of Jewish girls in yiddiskeit outside of kashrus and basic Shabbos laws led to the founding of Bais Yaakov. . With the post WW1 collapse of the Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empires , Jews were no longer confined to the shtetl and isolated from the outside civilization. More and more women were being exposed to outside influences. Without a firm background in, and knowledge of their religion, assimilation rates among women were alarming. BTW, despite romanticized views of the alte heim, there was a post WW1 migration out of the shtetl that was contributing to an overall increase in assimilation.
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