Chassidim vs. Beis Yaakov

Home Forums Bais Medrash Minhagim Chassidim vs. Beis Yaakov

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1720039

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    How would you explain to an outsider why Chassidim don’t sent their daughters to Beis Yaakov? What can be so different?

    #1720085

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Gerrer Chasidim send their daughters to Beis Yaakov of Ger. The Gerrer Rebbe started the Beis Yaakov movement together with the Chofetz Chaim.

    #1720082

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    What Chassidim send their daughters to is a Bais Yaakov, it’s just not part of the Bais Yaakov organization. It runs using the system popularized by Reb. Sara Schenirer ZT”L therefore it’s a Bais Yaakov.

    #1720087

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sarah Schenirer herself was Chasidish.

    #1720107

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Their schools speak to their students in Yiddish while bais Yaakovs teach in English

    #1720103

    1
    Participant

    Because they have a different perspective on the role of the woman. Beis Yaakov is preparing women to get a good education and be in a career to support a husband in learning. Chasidish girls aspire to be homemakers. If you can’t win the Beis Yaakov tznius and testing contests, it’s a disaster for your child.

    #1720101

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yseribus: What “Bais Yaakov organization” do you speak of?

    #1720126

    LA boy
    Participant

    @joseph the one mentioned in rashi on the posuk in shemos perek yud tes passuk gimmel

    #1720307

    The little I know
    Participant

    A large percentage of Rebbetzins in America within the Chassidishe community who are of American birth or arrived in America in their youth attended Bais Yaakov. The Chassidishe communities, as they grew, created their own girls schools just as they created their own yeshivos. There were Chassidishe Rebbes who attended Yeshivas Rabbenu Yitzchok Elchonon. The preferences to be mechanech one’s children within their own communities is legendary, and is not newsworthy. Prior to much of the growth we see today, Chassidishe families patronized the Litvishe yeshivos, and girls attended the frum schools that existed at that time. I can provide many examples.

    #1720331

    Redleg
    Participant

    Joseph, while the Gerrer Rebbe and the CC were early supporters of Sarah Schneirer’s efforts, neither of those two Gedolim can be said to have started the BY movement. The innovator, originator and driving force of Beis Yaakov was Madam Schneirer herself. It is also noteworthy that, with the exception of the two aforementioned Gedolim, virtually the entire “frum” world (people like you, Joseph) were strongly opposed to her innovation.

    #1720496

    Joseph
    Participant

    Redleg: The Belzer Rebbe gave Sarah Schenirer a brocha to be successful in starting the Beis Yaakov schools before she began her efforts. She was a Belzer chosid and went to him for permission to begin her innovation.

    #1720538

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Redleg is right. Revision of history in many areas of the frum past, especially bios, is shamelessly rampant and repugnant to the memory of the deceased and families. Brachos and all are great but Mrs. Schneirer herself was the founder. End of story.

    #1720584

    Azoiy
    Participant

    Sarah Schenirer z”l was a Belzer. Her brother
    went to Belz to ask for her and was given
    permission and a brocha. It was the
    Gerrer Rebbe z”l that helped her make it
    happen and fully supported her in her efforts
    But without Sarah Schenirer nothing would
    have happened. So you are both correct

    #1721014

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I’m curious about the OP. Did you think Chassidishe girls didn’t go to school at all, or is the question just why many of them tend to call their Beis Yaakov’s something other than Beis Yaakov?

    #1721508

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    No, I know that Chassidic girls go to school. Just why isn’t everyone all mixed in one BY? Also what do you mean by their “BY”. Why are you referring to their schools as BY. I guess in my mind BY is a Litvish bastion.

    #1721523

    Joseph
    Participant

    Beis Yaakov has been a Chasidish/Litvish institution and system right from the founding until today. They aren’t mixed because there’s so many girls k”h that they need many Beis Yaakov schools. As such, many Chasidishe kehilos each have their own Beis Yaakov school. But, for example, Beis Yaakov of Boro Park, which is the oldest and largest Beis Yaakov today, is a very thorough mix of Litvish girls and Chasidish girls from many different chasiduses.

    Nowadays even some Sefardic girls schools call themselves Beis Yaakov.

    #1721622

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “No, I know that Chassidic girls go to school. Just why isn’t everyone all mixed in one BY?”
    The same reason boys don’t all go to the same mixed yeshivas.

    “Also what do you mean by their “BY”.”
    It’s come to be a general term.

    #1721812

    Joseph
    Participant

    Beit Yaakov Ateret Torah is a Sefardic Beis Yaakov.

    #1721783

    Redleg
    Too much propaganda?
    putting aside Hungary or Galicia almost all supported the movement
    matter of fact it was so obvious that most weren’t even sure what the Innovation was

    Germany and Yavne already had existing before this

    #1721863

    Joseph
    Participant

    IITFT: Of course it was a major innovation. The Chofetz Chaim explicitly acknowledged so but said due the shas hadchak it was permitted. The Gemora, Rashi, Shulchan Aruch and throughout halacha there are stringent restrictions on teaching Torah to girls, which says tiflus (leading women to immorality) is the result of teaching them Torah.

    #1722310

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Joseph:
    It’s not like they’re learning gemara. Nobody ever said it’s assur to tell a woman how to keep kosher, Shabbos, etc.

    I personally also don’t really see how it was such a big chiddush to have girls going to Jewish girls’ schools instead of public schools or homeschooling (presumably the alternative). The wikipedia on it makes it sounds like, at the time, girls had gotten so stupid they didn’t even know how to keep shabbos and therefore they had to start it as an emergency. I don’t buy that.

    #1722506

    Joseph,
    There always were girls who learned
    The Innovation if there was, was as an official institution
    As someone who was involved in a superior bais yaakov High School in North America for
    some years previously ,one even presently can honestly weigh and debate whether girls being educated in institutions Is better than other options at least in theory

    One fact that’s rarely considered in the Perennial discussions was that females had just gotten suffrage .
    There therefore desperate need for them to be educated

    iirc Frankfurt Had girls education institutionalized since 1853

    #1722919

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville, IITFT:

    There is a dispute in the Mishna Sotah 20a whether one is even allowed to teach Torah to women at all. The argument against the teaching of Torah to women states that if one does so, it is like teaching them Tiflus. Rashi comments that Tiflus means lechery, meaning the study of Torah will lead women to immorality. Rashi then cites the famous story of Bruriah, one of the greatest female scholars in Jewish history to prove his point. One day, Bruriah ridiculed the Gemara (in Kidushin 80b) which states that that women are lightheaded. Rabbi Meir, her husband, ordered his student to test Bruriah’s strength and try to seduce his wife. Bruriah caved in and when she realized what she had done, she hung herself.

    Thus Rashi’s argument is that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. The Rambam agrees with Rashi’s take. Rambam also adds that when the chachamim had said, “He who teaches his daughter Torah, is as if he taught his daughter tiflus,”only applies to the oral law. The Rambam says that a man should not teach his daughters written law but if he does, it is not considered tiflus. The Shulchan Aruch follows this approach of Rambam.

    The conclusion is that there are four areas within this law, as per Shulchan Aruch:

    1. Women may not learn the Oral Torah

    2. Women may learn the simple meaning of the Written Torah

    3. Women may not learn the Written Torah in depth

    4. Women must learn the laws that apply to them

    Note that Rashi, Ramban, etc. are part of Torah Shebalpeh.

    #1722932

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Joseph, just to clarify, you’re purposely responding with an answer that has nothing to do with what we said, right?

    #1722947

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville, I was demonstrating the incorrectness of your comment that it isn’t “a big chiddush to have girls going to Jewish girls’ schools instead of… homeschooling”. In fact, until the Beis Yaakov movement, it has been the Jewish tradition for thousands of years for mothers to homeschool their daughters in the needed (and permitted) subjects.

    #1723256

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    That’s not even the slightest bit similar to anything you said in your last comment.

    #1723264

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Different standards.
    Different language (many chassidim speak only yiddish)
    Different minhagim

    #1723284

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    OK, I know this is a stupid question, only worthy to be asked by an idiot like me, but I honestly don’t know the answer:

    What, exactly, is a Bais Ya’akov? How is it different from any other girls’ school?

    The Wolf

    #1723667

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I know in Israel a school needs to meet a certain standard to be in on the “BY” club.
    There are schools outside the system with BY standards.
    But there are no schools within the BY system that don’t meet the criteria.

    Sending a child to a BY school is basically knowing that they meet those standards.

    #1723710

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Wolf:

    You mean why would a school call itself a Bais Yaakov instead of just a “Jewish girls school?” Same reason a place would call itself a yeshiva or mesivta instead of a “Hebrew Day School.” The titles signal the type of institution.

    #1723831

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You mean why would a school call itself a Bais Yaakov instead of just a “Jewish girls school?” Same reason a place would call itself a yeshiva or mesivta instead of a “Hebrew Day School.” The titles signal the type of institution.

    So, in other words, it’s just branding?

    The Wolf

    #1723956

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Look at the end of Choshen Mishpot that the Darisheh brings from his mother about the lighting of candles on Yom Tov to make a brocho first. So, the mitzvos that apply to the women, they can learn by themselves in detail.

    #1724013

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    So, in other words, it’s just branding?

    Basically.

    #1724028

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    It’s 100% branding.

    #1724056

    Joseph,
    observe how the Commentaries over the centuries interpreted

    1) Women are prohibited from learning she’lo lishma
    2) females ought not to learn pilpul or too much lomdus
    3) Females are not to learn in an organized institutional setting

    The Saba Kadisha always contended that his rebbe was his mother and her main rebbe in turn was ..her mother

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending