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Yehuda Dov wrote this in VIN News on 2025 November 13:
JERUSALEM (VINnews) — In the days of the Chazon Ish,
the Charedi world was very different, and Charedim who did not
“make a living” from Torah study were obliged to serve in the IDF.The proof is that one of the Chazon Ish’s students,
Rabbi Elazar Menachem Man Shach, who later became
head of the Ponevezh Yeshiva, also held the same view
regarding those “worldly roamers wandering aimlessly
through the streets of Bnei Brak and Jerusalem.”He ruled that Charedi draft evaders are no less than
persecutors of Torah study, and that the Charedi public
has no interest in freeing them from the IDF draft.But who will tell us that this was also the
outlook of the great leader, the Chazon Ish?This exact question is examined, among other topics,
in the monumental book by researcher and historian
Professor Binyamin Brown, “The Chazon Ish —
The Decisor, the Believer, and the Leader
of the Charedi Revolution”
(Magnes Jerusalem and Yeshiva University Press, New York).On page 304, [Professor Binyamin] Brown writes:
“He [the Chazon Ish] did NOT think that the exemption
from military service should be given to every Haredi Jew
simply by virtue of being Charedi, but only to a
fairly narrow group of yeshiva students.”And here the learned author gives us a bit of history:
“In fact, that was the situation until Agudat Yisrael
joined the Begin government in 1977 [CE].
From that point on, almost every Charedi man declared
‘Torato Umanuto’ and received a postponement of service.
Under the umbrella of this exemption, thousands of
Charedi men who did not study in religious institutions at all,
and in some cases those who had dropped out of yeshivot,
were released from service.”It appears that the first Likud prime minister, Menachem Begin,
was dazzled and swept up by the displays of piety
from Charedi leadership and granted a broad,
wholesale exemption to the youth in black hats,
regardless of the cost in terms of the blood
of fellow Israelis who were not part of that camp.[Professor Binyamin] Brown continues:
“It is quite clear that the Chazon Ish would NOT have
justified exemption on that basis.
In his halachic novellæ he tended even to narrow
the bounds of the Torah-based exemptions to the
‘returners from war’: those who
‘built a house and did not inaugurate it,’
‘planted a vineyard and did not yet enjoy its produce,’
‘married but did not yet take a wife,’
or the ‘timid and faint-hearted’
— and he ruled that these ‘returners’
[i.e., those exempt from appearing to defend Israel]
are only released ‘when Israel’s survival does not depend on them.’”And here comes the most astonishing punch line.
The Chazon Ish writes in his chiddushim on Orach Chaim 112/114, chap.6 clause 3):“And if they are needed [i.e., those precious yeshiva students],
they must come to assist their brothers.”Plain and simple.
The Chazon Ish is explicit, with no conditions, no caveats.
Just close the Gemara and stand up to save Israel immediately.
Nothing more to add.To provide further support for his conclusion, Brown quotes Pe’er HaDor
— a book written by a group of Charedi writers led by Rabbi Shlomo Cohen,
a pupil of the Chazon Ish from the Vilna period and one of his great admirers,
considered the official Charedi biography of the Chazon Ish:“Even Pe’er HaDor, written before the wholesale exemption
for Haredim in 1977 [CE], dares to cite things in his name
(which today would of course be censored) that point to
his opposition to freeing those who do not study Torah.According to one rumor he recommended conscription
to the IDF for ‘those whose Torah is not their profession’
(see Pe’er HaDor cols. 262–264), and according to another testimony
(Pe’er HaDor even cites it, amazingly, from the newspaper HaTzofeh
— note by B.B.) he even said that one who is not truly
‘Torato Umanuto’ and pretends to be a yeshiva student
in order to obtain a postponement from military service
has the status of a persecutor of all the yeshivot in the land.”[Professor Binyamin] Brown cites additional sources
to corroborate his assessment and sums them up:
“There is great doubt whether the path of Charedi society today
would have been acceptable to him [the Chazon Ish].”SOURCE: article titled: “Would The Chazon Ish
Have Accepted A Total Exemption For Charedim?
Apparently Not” by Yehuda Dov,
2025 November 13, VIN News * www (dot) vinnews (dot) com
_________________________________________
FULL DISCLOSURE:I did NOT write this article or any part of it.
I do NOT know the person who wrote this article.
I just copied it from VIN News.
_________________________________________
Articles about The Three Oaths in the YWN Coffee Room:http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/refuting-the-three-oaths-gimel-shevuot
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/three-oaths-essay-by-daniel-pinner
_________________________________________
Articles about Gedolim and the
Modern State of Israel in the YWN Coffee Room:http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rabbi-shraga-feivel-mendlowitz-vs-satmar-rebbe
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rabbi-moshe-sherer-and-the-modern-state-of-israel
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rabbi-chaim-kanievsky-and-the-modern-state-of-israel
This is a complete lie, falsehood, canard and fiction. The Chazon Ish and Rav Elazar Menachem Man Shach never ever supported Chareidi men — even though who are NOT learning Torah — from routinely enlisting in the IDF.
The Chazon Ish objection to IDF service was based the army being a secularizing “melting pot” that is an environment as a place of shmad and spiritual destruction, with mandatory exposure to secular culture, non-observance and Shabbos desecration.
VIN doesn’t generally allow comments that are unflattering of the Zionist idol.
Regardless, this is also spam.
An academic Zionist is obviously not a valid messenger of the shitos of the Chazon Ish.
The Zionist army is shmad and all three of the gimmel chamuros. The Chazon Ish obviously did not allow anyone to subject themselves to that in the Zionist army.
The Chazon Ish’s only point about learning/not learning was that is somebody not learning would dishonestly claim an exemption for learning then that dishonesty could put at risk the general exemption. To resolve that issue, that non-learner should learn and get his exemption honestly, not shmad themselves in the Zionist army of shmad.
It’s really not complicated.
ujm :
This is a complete lie, falsehood, canard and fiction. The Chazon Ish and Rav Elazar Menachem Man Shach never ever supported Chareidi men — even though who are NOT learning Torah — from routinely enlisting in the IDF.
——————-I cannot comment about hazon ish
but I can comment about rav shach
I remember myself that when rav shach was president of va’ad hayeshivot in ey
the va’ad hayeshivot was legally recognized by the IDF as sole certifier of those who were ‘toratam umnutam’
this was – by the way – AFTER 1977 , after the likud under pm meachem begin took over the country after decades of left wing rule
the va’a hayeshivot under directive of rav shach withheld its certification from any bachur who took out a driving license
thus FORCING that bachur to enlist
even if that bachur learnt full three sedarim a day behatmada , if he took out a license , he was out – and drafted
this was clear public knowledge across all yeshivot in ey
so much for the documented position of rav shach re non learners enlistment in the IDF ….
another important saying , also publicly known at the time, of rav shach :
any non learner falsely registering as a learner is nothing less than a rodef …..
.
.
I remember those things as they were happening .
.
.to qualify my previous post re rav shachs postion of non learners in the IDF ….
its extremely important to remember that the IDF in those times is not the same IDF as in 2025
the IDF from 2025 is under the command of the evil supreme court who gradually and illegally took power from the nineties and onwards
and drastically worsened the IDF with regard to a boy from a religious home or someone stiving to be religious on his own …
.
.so it could very well be that rav shach would not be that quick to force a bachur to the IDF ….
Thank you Yankel Berel. The real change began in the mid-90s when the Barak SC began forcing the IDF to adapt Progressive ideas of “gender integration”. There is zero connection between the situation the Chazon Ish was dealing with and the situation today. There were also other ways of avoiding IDF service then and now… The increase in “Torato Umanuto” exemptions after ’77 doesn’t mean that those people would have gone to the IDF, just they would have to be more creative… How do thousands of Eidah Yerushalmim etc. get out of the IDF, without even registering their Mosdos with the Medinah? That didn’t change at all, then or now. (Hint – the IDF aren’t stupid, but they really don’t want them…)
It is also very interesting when a MO professor, publishing through YU Press, all of a sudden is very interested in the Chazon Ish and his Shittos in Daas Torah. Don’t you think that is a little odd Reb SQUARE_ROOT?
Another question. If there is or ever was a real operational need for drafting Chareidim, why is it that the calls for doing so never come from the IDF leadership itself? Why is this primarily being spearheaded by the SC/AG and friends? (Hint – see above hint…)
It is an oft-repeated canard that masses of Chareidim who don’t actually learn benefit from the “Torato Umanuto” exemption. According to the Institute for Democracy in Israel, no friend of the Chareidim AT ALL, the real numbers are far lower. Within the age group expected (by Chareidi standards) to still be single, the numbers are over 90% (according to the IDI, a think tank hostile to Chareidim who analyzed the data to figure out better ways to hurt the Chareidim through sanctions…) From the age of marriage, the number goes down (what a shock.) In the last year before age 26 (when they will anyway be allowed to work legally within a year) up to 25% (again, according to hostile analysts with an explicit agenda to besmirch the Chareidim) do in fact work illegally. Which of course means that (at least) 75% are still actually learning full time even at that age. I suspect that the 25% who don’t probably married earlier like many Chassidim, and could already have several kids to support at age 26.
yankel berel, what’s wrong with a driving license?
Speaking of Menachem Begin, he had more אהבת התורה and respect for תלמידי חכמים than many MO/RZ, and even some who are ostensibly “Chareidi”… The professor who wrote the book quoted here seems to imply that he himself also has less respect for the same people Begin did respect… This from someone purporting to write a book about – the Shittos of the Chazon Ish… Like they say, you can’t make this stuff up. Thank you SQUARE_ROOT for the free comedy.
(By the way, Gedolei Yisroel past and present knew all of the quotes you so love to post here… But they also knew a few other things you prefer to omit…)
@yankel-berel:
See above.
Of course there is no way that the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach and all the rest would ever permit anyone to be shmaded in the Zionist army.Yankel: Those are individual strategies, with purposes, that do not indicate whatsoever that HaGaon HaRav Menachem Man Shach in any way believed or supported the idea that Chareidi bochorim who are NOT learning should enlist.
The reason disallowing non-learners from regiatering as a learner, is totally obvious: not to risk having the secular government take it away altogether, even from learners, by claiming it is being abused.
And the license issue is also quite obvious; there legally they could be exempted at no cost to anyone else. But the Gedolim were so strong against being licensed that they threatened bochorim who did contemplate getting licensed against the directives of Gedolei Yisroel, something much much worse — being forced into the IDF.
That was successful in stopping those thinking of it from getting licensed; no one wanted to go to the army.
I think some disrespectful sentences inop are not from Prof. Brown but from the article, follow quote marks. Professor is at Hebrew University and is studying various charedi and general Orthodox topics. There is 2013 lecture on chazon ish on yutorah.
I am confused with responses here: some deny chazon ish would let anyone into the army, others saying that army changed, then a hint that this material is correct but there is something else. Why is it so hard to bring up relevant information from the most famous leaders?
fully agree
rav shach did not hold army service to be lehathila for any religious person
but he did not hold it to be universally yehareg veal yaavor for the non learners
rav shach was also known to tell his talmidim to stand still for the full minute of the siren on yom hazikaron
but he did rail publicly against zionism
he made a point of being maspid satmar rav in his yeshiva’s main bet hamidrash
—
the lesson of all that is that not everything is black and white , like some posters are trying to portray it ….
.
.Completely ridiculous!!!
Even without getting into the details, do you really think that some random professor understands the chazon Ish’s shita more than his many many talmidim?????
Please, a little common senseTo all viewing this discussion and others, I have noticed something fascinating. Twice in this discussion, UJM and Hakatan have both posted at the same time (hour and minute on November 15) and the same again on November 16. It is clear that they are either one person, using two accounts simultaneously or two people who synchronize activities on these boards to try convince others of their view. (If your points are indeed correct, you should not feel any need to use mind games or marketing tricks to present them.)
Their view (assuming it is their genuine view) has ignored Rav Shach and many other gedolim (although they claim to follow him), who always expressed gratitude to IDF soldiers, despite their disagreements with them. Rav Shach and the Divrei Yoel cried over the deaths of IDF soldiers, though they did not know them personally. Likewise, the gedolim always felt the pain of the yesomim and almonos and all of Klal Yisroel caused by the wars (case and point Rav Koledetsky shlita during the recent war). Assuming you aren’t paid by the Ayatollah or Neturei Kara, why have you guys never expressed any sympathy for anyone or any regret at any point over nearly a thousand soldiers killed over the past two years? Having read many of your posts on many boards, I am convinced that you are either paid to write what you do by parties outside of Yiddiskeit and/or spend little time learning Torah as all of your sources are stories and quotes which be found on internet rather than maamorei Chazal. One of the three signs of a Jew is to feel rachmonus, and this has been shown to be lacking.
Litvish95, I can’t believe I need to defend UJM and HaKatan here… But they’re not necessarily the same person. The times are based on when the moderator approves it. They could have written hours apart but with the same timestamp. Case in point, all the posts from this morning (11/17) are at 10:06 AM or 10:07 AM.
@Litvish95:
Wow; so much with which to disagree.Do you mean the time when the mods approved the posts?
Gedolim also felt the pain of the Zionist shmad, but I didn’t see any Zionists commenting on how terrible it was that the Zionists have been perpetrating a spiritual holocaust for over a century. The point here is an academic (but very real) topic, not a guestbook for Zionist soldiers.
Regarding sources, I have mentioned Rav Elchonon and Kovetz Maamarim, the Satmar Rav and his Torah (as in VaYoel Moshe, Al HaGeulah… and others), etc.
Square Root, the Chazon Ish wrote it about “..דמלחמת מצוה אפי’ חתן מחדרו לא איירי בזמן שצריכים לעזרתם לנצחון המלחמה..”. Not about Yeshiva students. You can argue קל וחומר, and I agree with your assessment on a practical level vis-a-vis blanket exemptions You still shouldn’t pretend the Chazon Ish agreed. It does nothing to help the cause and only makes people distrust its proponents, much like I distrust Neturei Karta-minded people do to a willigness to unquestioningly accept anything that fits their narrative.
The full Sefer you mention is available on HebrewBooks, see https://hebrewbooks.org/14336. The section you quote is on page 326 of the full PDF when downloaded, though סעיף ק”י goes back for about 20 pages before.
Did Professor Binyamin Brown say that the Chazon Ish claimed as such, with that exact wording you posted? Or is this something that Yehuda Dov on VINNews wrote? Regardless, someone is manipulating the truth here. Can’t believe I’m taking the side of UJM and HaKatan again on this thread, but when it comes to what the Chazon Ish said, they’re correct about Yeshiva students (though non-learning Chareidim are not necessarily described that way; צריך עיון).@square_root
you are quoting the exact spot in the Chazon Ish, can you not just get it yourself?Regardless, yes – of course – the zionist quoted is a liar. As I mentioned before, they don’t care about Torah, they only care about keeping the river of Jewish blood flowing as a means to stay in political power.
The Chazon Ish is speaking about the halacho of eruvin and a machane (encampment of soldiers) during a milchemes mitzvah (he specifies: as established by real prophets and the great sanhedrin) / milchemes rishis (a war initiated by King David to expand the kingdom’s borders).
There he says that in the case of milchemes mitzvah it is by definition pikiach nefesh – so no halacha of exemption. And if a rishis, exemptions apply unless the military operation turns deadly in which case if the except soldiers are needed it becomes regular pikiach nefesh like a milchemes mitzvah and no more exception.
At no point does the Chazon Ish even hint to anything relevant to modern times and the current shmad of the cantonist or zionists or notzrim or whatever new name Amulek has chosen to sugar coat it’s love for violence and jewish blood. At no point does the Chazon Ish mention the sugya of Shevet Levi nor the today’s yeshiva students.
Again, the author is a Zionist, so it’s easy to know and presume he is a liar, like his teachers, like Kook. Stay away from such crooked “Torah” and such priests.
In any case, if one would attempt to apply this section of the Chazon Ish to today’s situation, it would be hard to know on which side one would be obligated to fight. Are we supposed to pick up arms to fight the murderous zionist army who are actively targeting the minority of Klal Yisroel in their midsts? Or are we supposed to pick up arms and fight the downtrodden murderous arab groups who are not always mavchin bein tzadik l’rushe?
Certainly, those who really DO care what the Chazon Ish taught already know that we Jews don’t turn to weapons or violence, rather we turn to Hashem for His salvation and protection, and we take to the streets and protest any attack on our Torah or our Father in Heaven.
It’s clear beyond doubt that you are correct re Hazon Ish’s position
He is on clear public record opposing draft of yeshiva boys with every fiber of his being .
Any attempt to claim otherwise is nothing less than holocaust revisionism .
SQUARE , by posting such nonsense , is seriously impinging his own credibility .
.
.Theu are different people, one is triggered by just one topic while the other one responds to multiple topics albeit in a similar manner.
Those who talk about r Schach responses to idf, is this your personal knowledge or you saw it in print?
Mickey, you can be justified in being suspicious of an academic author, but he is not a rando, he is writing about Orthodox jews for quite some time. It would help if you can point to his specific mistakes and what is a better source.
Also notice that this was an article quoting the professor, not everything in the article is a direct quote. So you will be better off reading his original articles or books.
SQUARE_ROOT – The Chazon Ish is explicit, with no conditions, no caveats.
Just close the Gemara and stand up to save Israel immediately.
Nothing more to add._________________________________________
Can anyone tell us where we can read this on the internet for free?Can anyone tell us where we can read this on HebrewBooks (dot) org?
Can anyone tell us where we can find a physical copy of this book?
Those of us who DO have a physical copy of the Seforim of the Chazon Ish aren’t impressed by your screeds. The piece was not written with regard to the IDF, but to resolve an apparent contradiction in the Gemara in Maseches Sotah WRT Milchemes Mitzvah. The part of the Chazon Ish you omitted DOES add MULTIPLE conditions and caveats when this applies (thereby explaining why in one place the Gemara says one thing, and in another place appears to say something else), even when discussing a REAL JEWISH ARMY = מלחמות בית דוד with a משוח מלחמה etc. By the way, the Gemara there, and hence the Chazon Ish, ISN’T talking about תלמידי חכמים, ONLY about a Chosson during Shana Rishona, or someone who built a house or planted a vineyard. All of this is very easy to see IF YOU ACTUALLY BOTHER TO READ THE QUOTE INSIDE THE SEFER WITH THE CONTEXT.
chiefshmerel – If you read the whole piece from start to finish, the whole joke doesn’t even get started. Your ״קל וחומר״ is also not correct. The פטור of תלמידי חכמים is stronger than that of someone who planted a vineyard… In fact, תלמידי חכמים are even exempt from taxes to PAY for the army. If you want to kler about who is a Talmid Chacham, I think that the weakest yeshiva bochur has more shaychus to being a Talmid Chacham than the IDF has shaychus to the Real Jewish Army of Dovid Hamelech or Yehoshua… At any rate, SQUARE_ROOT, who by his own admission doesn’t even own a copy of Chazon Ish, doesn’t know more about the shittos of the Chazon Ish than the current Roshei Yeshiva do. They do have their own copy of the Sefer… A few of the older Roshei Yeshiva learned from the Chazon Ish himself when he was still alive, and most received a living Mesorah from his close talmidim, most of whom were still alive until not that long ago. No need for YU professors to teach them…
SQUARE_ROOT:
Your memory is obviously lacking, but there is anyways no need to state that the sun rises during the day and sets at night. Unfortunately, since idolaters like yourself spam these boards with your Zionist nonsense and filth, some then choose to show why those claims are obviously false. But responding to endless Zionist idolatry and nonsense is for the sake of G-d and Judaism, not whatever other silliness you imagine.But since you mentioned:
“One of the three signs of a Jew is to feel rachmonus, and this has been shown to be lacking. “The Zionists are the biggest achzarim, having shmaded and destroyed millions of Jewish lives over the past century and forcibly impoverish our brethren there who refuse to be shmaded in their army and therefore forbidden to work until age 26.
You and your fellow Zionist idolaters have never once condemned any of that unspeakable cruelty towards innocent Jews by supposedly Jews. You are a disgrace; at least don’t accuse others (falsely, as it happens) about what you, yourself, are quite lacking in.
Do teshuva, drop the idol, and stop spamming these boards.
In my prior response, just submitted, I wrote that SQR is a “disgrace”. I want to emphasize that calling (or even suspecting) myself and others “paid agents of Hamas” and the like is absolutely disgraceful and it was in response to that I wrote the above; still, I should have written that post was “disgraceful”, not that the one who posted is “a disgrace”.
Spamming these boards with Zionist nonsense is bad enough. But accusing Jews – who have a chezkas kashrus as far as you know – about something that you yourself are clearly lacking is extremely disgraceful, of course. Stop it. All of it. At least have an honest conversation, not spam and not (false) character assassination.
@Avi K
you asked what’s wrong with a license
cannot speak for rav shach
but can offer my own thoughts
rambam writes that to truly acquire the crown of torah , one should not take his mind of the torah towards other things
a driver license for a yeshiva bachur, is an opening to many ‘other things’ where his mind could be, and should not be
if we want to produce students adorned by the ‘crown of torah’ , that is
..
.
All of the sources you quote here (and have done in the past) are acharonim whose comments are readable to English speakers on the internet. Until now, you have never quoted a Gemara (and if we see that you start doing so, we will know why).
You have still failed to answer why you have never expressed pain over death of hundreds of (fellow?) Yidden over the past two years. I know why – there is no answer, and you are lucky your paymasters have not seen you publicly caught out.
If you are Jewish, let me ask you a question (I don’t think you’ll find the answer on the internet.) What did Rav Meir Shapiro say about reform shuls? (You’ll need to head to the beis midrash for this one).
@Litvish95:
The gemara is also readable by English speakers on the Internet, of course.
The answer is very simple: that wasn’t the point of the discussion, and there was no need to mention it.As mentioned, and to quote your post: you and other Zionist idolaters have still failed to answer why you have never expressed pain over the spiritual death of millions of (fellow?) Yidden over the past hundred years due to the Zionists.
To further quote your post: “if you are Jewish, let me ask you a question:” how are you so quick to throw out a Jew’s chezkas kashrus or, worse, accuse a Jew of being a non-Jew?
Do teshuva, including asking for mechila bein adam laChaveiro, so that Y”K might help you.
The Chazon Ish wasn’t writing for Am Ha’aratzim, who can’t distinguish between the first years of the State & today. Rav Chaim Kaniyevsky himself participated in defending the state in ’48, the entire Yishuv was in a sakanah. Today, the Yishuv is BH much more stable & doesn’t need Chareidim to survive.
Judaism is a live religion; you need the Chachmei Yisroel in each Dor to decide how the tzibur should react to the new challenges that arise. The Jews who quote earlier works to disprove the opinions of the current Chachmei Hatorah, are living a dead religion! Not Judaism!
This is why they are drifting away from traditional Judaism because it’s a lifeless relic to them—something for historians to ponder.yankel> rambam writes that to truly acquire the crown of torah , one should not take his mind of the torah towards other things
can we look in detail at this citation? Clearly Rambam was not against having a driving license – he was supported by his brother, a merchant.
yankel> a driver license for a yeshiva bachur, is an opening to many ‘other things’ where his mind could be, and should not be
See R Hirsh’s opinion that full isolation leads to lack of immunity (I presume he writes about it not theoretically but pondering how so many people went OTD in his generation). So, if you start with isolation, then you logically come to this conclusion that having a driving license; maybe having legs that can move you around; having eyes and ears are a source of danger. You don’t have to agree to R Hirsh’s approach yourself but at least you might agree that his opinion is a legitimate Torah approach and thus, maybe, some people, some place, could try it out.
YYA> the way, the Gemara there, and hence the Chazon Ish, ISN’T talking about תלמידי חכמים, ONLY about a Chosson during Shana Rishona, or someone who built a house or planted a vineyard.
Thanks for providing context to the quote. Things should be quoted in context. This raises a question about halochos of talmidei chachamim.
I was recently learning a teshuva by Noda Bin Yehudah about a “hoshuv” “learning” person in his time getting entangled into inappropriate relationship with his no-less-hoshuv in-laws and then asking for leniencies based on his status. I asked why certain points in the teshuva do not match what gemorah assumes of talmidei chachomim and maggid shiur suggested that clearly Noda bin Yeuhudah does not consider these gemoras applicable to people in his generation.
SQUARE_ROOT – This is the article that I quoted from…
You made an outrageous claim in the name of the Chazon Ish, while admitting that you don’t own a copy of Chazon Ish, and have never read the quote inside. Some people did read the Chazon Ish, and your whole argument falls apart upon reading what is actually written there. We couldn’t care less what some nobody wrote on VIN. If all you claimed you were doing is quoting some troll who posts on VIN, so say so. If you claim to speak in the name of the Chazon Ish himself, you had better do your homework…
Haimy, first could you bring those quotes from Chazon Ish and R Kanievsky? Printed material often are from politically motivated sources from both sides: one claims that all Rabbis were against the state because they support that and others claim that to denounce them. It would be good if we show real respect to talmidei chachamim by learning what they actually said!
That said, it is not clear that modern Israel is in some sense “worse” than before. True, the external sakanah at that time was apparent, but also the people in power were in large part very anti-religious. Right now, a majority of Israelis are positive towards Judaism and anti-religious group is smaller in numbers.
AAQ – The Vaad Hayeshivos has no problem with MARRIED yungeleit having drivers licenses. They don’t want BOCHURIM draying around too much at this point in their lives. As it is, that isn’t the unanimous policy of all Gedolei Yisroel, but in Israel most Yeshivos have such a rule.
Haimy> doesn’t need Chareidim to survive.
This might be so from your point of view – we are busy learning Torah and “they” can do the army. And we are not well-trained anyway!
I think you should also try to understand other positions of your brothers: they experience the hardship and they do not appreciate that a portion of population refuses to participate.Our ideal of zevulun/yassachar partnership (in that order) is a contract that both sides sign. You can’t force it on the zevulun. Maybe you can teach him and show him your erliche behavior and then some people might sign up.
Thinking of that – mabe we can organize “zevulun bank” – every Israeli can sign up to do extra military duty and those who do not serve will assign a learner who can partner with him (and maybe share some things they learned)?
AAQ – Thanks for providing context to the quote. Things should be quoted in context. This raises a question about halochos of talmidei chachamim.
The Chazon Ish in question has nothing to do with Halachos of “Talmidei Chachamim”, or any policy WRT Yeshiva students. There is an apparent contradiction in the Gemara in the eighth Perek of Maseches Sotah WRT under what circumstances a Chosson can be “drafted” for military service in time of war. The Chazon Ish resolves the סתירה by explaining the two steps in the Gemara as referring to two different circumstances, and then qualifies under what conditions the פטור of שנה ראשונה would apply. No connection to the sensational nonsense SQUARE_ROOT or the YU professor are trying to prove.
Almost all of SQUARE_ROOT’s quotes, on all of his threads, are out of context, mainly because he never bothers to read them in their original sources, but only as excerpts in translation.
YYA 2 SQRT> You made an outrageous claim in the name of the Chazon Ish,
He was transparent, quoting a specific article. there is no indication that he tried to mislead anyone. It would be great if people simply add other information they have.
SQUARE_ROOT – You’ll love this one:
BIZARRE BUT TRUE: J.D. Vance Convicted, Sentenced To Prison For Threatening To Kill President Trump
A fully accurate, in context quote…
To Haimy
Kudos for a thoughtful post. We don’t arrive at the truth by combing through Chazal to find a statement that supports our preconceived point of view. The problem is that very few posters are interested in the truth. They just want to impose their opinions as if they’re Torah Misinai.
YYA, funny. Notice the clickbite does not say “VP”. That is why it is important to use correct titles – Mr, Mrs, PhD, JD (sic!) Sen, VP …
I believe there were cases in US elections where the other side launched independent candidates with same or similar name as the sitrah ahera.
AAQ :
…. Clearly Rambam was not against having a driving license – he was supported by his brother, a merchant.
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does ANYONE see any logic in this statement of AAQ ???
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What exactly is the connection between being supported by your merchant brother on one handand bachurim in yeshiva not having a license ???
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.yankel, I meant that Rambam had no problem with his brother “driving” to dangerous places, but YYA clarified already – this is only about unmarried bochurim.
Maybe this is where roshei yeshivos and haverei knesset can find common ground: both would prefer students to be really studying and they can both agree with taking driving licenses/passports away. Bonus for yeshivos, they don’t have to take these measures, medinah will do it for them.
AAQ
passports taken away, reminds me of the late USSR ….
.AAQ thinks rambam’s brother was a yeshiva bachur ???
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