- This topic has 109 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
tiawd
“That may be why no one on this thread has managed to answer my original questions without either appealing to the authority of the Ba’al Hatanya or the vague answer that “Hashem is above all these discussions”.
no, thats because most people dont waste their time on ywn coffeeroomtiawd –
As I stated in my posts above, there are plenty of additional sources for the idea of the Tanya from sources not known to be affiliated with Lubavitch.
There is the statement quoted by many in the name of the Zohar ; מאן דנפח מדיליה נפח.
The Nefesh Hachaim in שער א פרק ה and פרק טו explains the Neshama pretty close if not the same as the Tanya.
I remember Rav avigdor Miller as well using the idea of Chelek Eloka Momaal to explain the words of the Chovos Halevavos who says in his Hakdama that והשכל הניצל מכל פגע is one of the three possible sources for dinim that are דאורייתא! The Gemara says למה לי קרא סברא הוא and Rav Miller’s explanation is this idea of the Chovos Halevavos that as Chelek Eloka Mimaal the סברא of an “undamaged mind” has the status of דאורייתא!
Your statement above “It is much more dangerous to blur the line between G-d and man than to over-emphasize the gap between us and Hashem, even if that is also a mistake.” is a fatal error and quite the contrary is the case.
It is the idea of Chelek Eloka Mimaal that has the power to inspire people (who view themselves and others as Chelek Eloka Mimaal) to emulate Hashem and seek to bestow kindness on others like Avaraham Avinu, to “over-emphasize the gap between us and Hashem” especially when it is “a mistake” as you suggest, is what leads people to lose all sense of humanity and sink to the level of animals in their own behavior and especially in their behavior towards others.
I don’t think anyone has ever gone off the derech by getting “carried away” with the idea of Chelek Eloka Mimaal (aside for Pharaoh and a few others) while an unfortunate amount of people have sunk to unthinkable levels of inhumanity due to the idea being neglected.
Philosophically the “fallacy” and “absurdity” (as well put by Yechi above) of your questions are well exposed in my posts above, after a basic understanding of אין עוד מלבדו, as explained by others in addition to the Tanya, you’re questions are all what is known in the Beis Medrash as a “Klotz Kasha”.
Your questions are like a question I once heard from a Lomdishe rebbe of mine who asked, why is it muttar to daven while wearing Tefillin if it is assur to be מסיח דעת from ones Tefiliin?
I will leave off with one more question for you, it says שמע ישראל ה’ אלו’ ה’ אחד how can there be Hashem and Elokim if “G-d cannot be divided into parts.”??
tiawd:
😁
so if you dont get a satisfactory answer here, dont assume there is noneThe Chasam Sofer asks why we say שהכל נהיה בדברו rather than במאמרו? He answers that it also applies to us. If we don’t mess up our mouth we would have G-dly strengths with it. Maybe the Targum translates the pasuk where Hashem blew in his nose a neshama of live giving him life to speak. Whoever blows, blows from his own abilities, so we should have the abilities to change nature with our mouths but we turned it impure by speaking improperly and thereby we lost the abilites to do so.
tiawd –
The Baal Hatanya did not only “not make up the idea of the neshama being a חלק א-לוק ממעל out of nowhere” rather it is a well established fundamental idea before and after the Baal Hatanya with sources before and after Lubavitch.The Nefesh Hachaim also uses the word גמור in his statement “מבחי’ הנשמה דלהון ולמעלה הוא אלקות גמור”, the meaning of כביכול is also not as simple as you suggested.
One thing is absolutely clear and unanimously stated by all the sources here; as much as it is a creation, the Neshama is a unique creation sourced much higher than all other creations, this is the point of the Baal Hatanya and the Nefesh Hachaim here.
As the Chovos Halevavos writes, only a fool spends his time trying to understand the essence of HKBH, when you finish (כביכול) explaining the essence of HKBH you can expect to understand exactly how mamash or not mamash, gamur or not gamur the Chelek Eloka Mimaal is.
The main “equivalence” intended in my last question was that as stated here above, in the context of a proper understanding of אין עוד מלבדו and the true meaning of Hashem’s Oneness your “questions” are just as much of a “Klotz” question as that question is, certainly not grounds to call into question the legitimacy of the Baal Hatanya or those inspired by him and suggest that there is any problem with their אמונה.
As stated above, when it comes to the actions and behavior of people which is what really matters at the end of the day, the damage of people who underestimate the power of this idea is far greater than those who you think may have gone “overboard” with this idea.
tiawd –
I don’t know of any frum yid that disagrees with the fact that the Neshama is a creation despite their understanding of the word mamash in the Tanya and / or the word gamur in the Nefesh Hachaim.
As stated above once all agree on the basic principles of אין עוד מלבדו and Hashems Oneness as explained by the Rambam, Chovos Halevavos, Tanya and the Nefesh Hachaim any other differences are what chazal call משמעות דורשין איכא בינייהו.
Perhaps a much more important topic for discussion in the frum world is the fact that in the past months in Israel around 23 people have been dying a day from Covid (about a third of them fully vaccinated) who would have otherwise seemingly been alive if not for the adamant refusal of people especially orthodox and ultra orthodox to wear masks in closed spaces as instructed by the health ministry (while the protection to the mask wearer is disputed, the protection to the people around the mask wearer is almost undisputed). Especially after the vaccine roll out this unfortunate behavior seems to have almost complete rabbinic support across the entire spectrum of orthodox Judaism.
What happened to לא תעמוד על דם רעך?
What happened to לא תרצח?
What happened to כל המציל נפש אחת בישראל…?
What happened to חמירא סכנתא מאיסורא?
Are all the above mere empty slogans?
How come when it comes to איסור most charedim will not touch a Rabanut Hechsher with a ten foot pole but when it comes to סכנה which is much more חמור than איסור the charedim are more secular than the secular???????
A young grandson of the head of the beis din in Yerushalayim (“העדה החרדית”) passed away from covid this week, can the dayanim on that beis din bring an עגלה ערופה and say ידינו לא שפכו את הדם הזה???
Can anyone imagine the Kiddush Hashem it would have caused around the world had the charedim shown with their behavior this past year that all the above commandments and principles are not just empty statements that are ignored when they need to be acted upon????
Is it not an immeasurable tragedy that instead of being a light unto the nations and leaders of the world when it came to value for life as we were commanded to, the vast majority of “frum” communities around the world showed regarding covid that just the opposite is how we act????
The problem today of “Torah-observant Jews” who are “unwitting murderers” is far greater than the problem of “Torah-observant Jews” who you think might be “unwitting heretics”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.