chesed v. ruchniyus

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  • #1834642
    mik5
    Participant

    According to several poskim, including Rav Moshe OC 1:28 and the Mishna Berura 90:28, if you don’t have 10 people davening the Amidah at the same time, it is not tefilla b’tzibbur.

    I came to a shul where there are 5 people who want to daven, four who already davened, and they want me to be their sixth mispallel. However, I want (if that is the case) to go to a different shul so that I will have tefilla b’tzibbur as required by the posek hador. What should I do?

    If people who are struggling to get a minyan call me to come, and they are not makpid on asara mispallelim, and by going there I won’t be able to go to a place where there are asara, may I refuse? May I walk out of a shul when I realize that there won’t be asara mispallelim? If I am in a place where I would be the sixth mispallel if I davened, am I obligated to do so, and can I either just sit there or walk out and go somewhere else?

    #1834743
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Chesed trumps ruchniyus

    We see that אברהם ran to do חסד even though ד׳ was visiting אברהם

    #1834764
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See Shevet Halevi (4,11) who argues with the Igros Moshe above and rules like the Chasam Sofer that the shliach
    tzibur creates the tefilah betzibur and as long as they daven with him they are mekayim tefilah betzibur. People rather than disrupt the minyan should daven with the shliach tzibur and say whole kedushah together at its place as it looks from Tosfas in brochos (21,2) ד’ה אין היחיד.

    #1834766
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    Agreed that chesed usually trumps ruchnius, but this is more a matter of halacha than chesed.

    #1834770

    mik5: I know that my Rov will daven with only 6 mispallelim if 4 others are there to be “mashlim” the minyan. Bottom line, ask your LOR.

    #1834771
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “According to several poskim,….”

    I always thought htis was a pashtus. Does anyone argue ?
    (There are varying opinions as to where they have to be do all 10 have to start together, if some started already and others join in is that a tzibur, before atah kadosh after etc)

    But does anyone say six mispallim (and 4 others present ) counts as tefillah betzibur?

    #1834958
    Libbi
    Participant

    You got your religion mixed up!
    When u have a chance to do a chesed for 5 people, u do it!
    Why should Chavairim help u when u r stuck on the road. Should they also think that their Ruchnius is more important? They could b Shteiging and Shteiging in their Ruchnius. Obviously u don’t know the basics of VeOhavto LeRayecho Komocho!

    #1834980
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ubi, do people read posts or they are there for fun? See post reply # 1834764

    #1835117

    Libbi: This is not always so as can be seen by a story concerning R’ Avrohom Pam TZATAL. A yungerman in the yeshiva was asked to be a “tzenter” in a neighborhood minyan while walking to daven in yeshiva. He made the minyan but they davened at a pace that he was uncomfortable with. He asked Rav Pam if this happens again can he ignore the requestas the speed of the davening was problematic for him . Rav Pam suggested that he should walk a different route so that he wouldn’t have to pass that shul. So we see that Rav Pam’s psak was ruchniyos comes before chesed.

    #1835124
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Midrash Shmuel says on the mishna איזהו דרך ישרה שיבור לו האדם כל שתפארת לעושיה ותפארת לו מן האדם what mitzva comes first, mitzva of ben adam lechavero or ben adam lanokam? The answer is, the one that is beautiful for the doer and beautiful from the others. Ben Adam Lachavero.
    אמנם הדברים שבין אדם לחבירו ראוי לאדם שיאחז בהם קודם כל דבר

    #1835183
    mik5
    Participant

    For those who are quick to say that chessed trumps ruchniyus – consider the following scenario: A lady asks to eat by you (a Shabbos or yom tov seuda) and insists on coming there inappropriately dressed (sleeveless) and sitting that way in front of your yeshiva bachurim sons. Would you allow this? Or would you demand that she modify her attire or refuse to invite her next time?

    Or someone asks you to come to a minyan that davens extremely fast and you are unable to keep pace even if you come early and it is a really frustrating experience that they are swallowing words and you would rather daven somewhere else? Would you agree to go there? What about some “rebbe” who davens extremely slowly and now you are stuck there because you are # 10? Even if you would agree to go to such places, are you obligated to?

    #1835184
    mik5
    Participant

    But does anyone say six mispallim (and 4 others present ) counts as tefillah betzibur?

    According to Rav Moshe OC 1:28, Chayei Adam 19:1, Mishna Berura 90:28. Rav Shlomo Zalmen, Dayan Fisher, Brisker Rav, you need 10 people davening SE, or it is not tefilla b’tzibbur. L’chatchila, according to some opinions, you need 10 starting at the same time (Mishna Berura 66:35 that l’chatchila, it is proper to start at the same time) So if you don’t have 10 starting at the same time, it would only be b’dieved (Rav Shlomo Zalman).

    According to Minchas Yitzchak, Chelkas Yoav, Rav Binyamin Zilber, Chacham Ovadia, 6 davening is good enough.

    #1835257
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “ubi, do people read posts or they are there for fun? See post reply # 1834764″

    eliezer, your post went up at 9:13 PM mine at 9:14 PM.
    I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are new here, but when comments go up they arent immediatly visible. So I’m not sure if you thought I should have read your comment in the minute before I typed mine. but the reality is it wasnt even visible when I entered mine.

    At any rate, ” People rather than disrupt the minyan should daven with the shliach tzibur and say whole kedushah together ” I havent seen that done, so assuming the OP would have done what is more commonly done (have the 6 daven silently followed by Chazaros hashatz) that isnt Tefilah betzibur even according to the shevet Halevi . (and as an aside it wouldn’t apply to Maariv)

    mik5 thank you for your mareh mekomos

    #1835287
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    What about davening a hoiche shmonei esrei (saying a loud shmonei esrei) ? We say kedusha together and start shmonei esrei then 10 people will daven together.

    #1835493

    Reb Eliezer: For Maariv?No kedusha. For Shacharis? I dont know if you can as the tzibbur would lose out on birchas cohanim.

    #1835516
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    For Maariv we all daven shmone esrei together as we are not saying anything before and not connecting guala to tefila. I think birchas kohanim is part of tefila, maybe not the ribono shel alom, but the rest they should be able to say.

    #1835519
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I made a mistake if there is birchas kohanim, it won’t work as the shmonei esrei after kedusha is said quietly.

    #1835615
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Reb eliezer

    “What about davening a hoiche shmonei esrei (saying a loud shmonei esrei) ? We say kedusha together and start shmonei esrei then 10 people will daven together.”

    The OP’s question is when we don’t have 10 people davening together “I came to a shul where there are 5 people who want to daven,”
    The Shevet Halevi says davening WITH the Shatz is Tefila Betzibr. Applying it here (which he doesnt do he is discussign a guy who came late but it seems comparable) would mean They DON’t Daven silently rather the shatz starts “chazaras Hashatz” and the Tzibbur joins him.

    1) This wouldnt work for Maariv
    2) By shacharis, we don’t generally do “a hoiche shmonei esrei”
    3) By mincha standard practice by “Hoiche shemoneh esrei” is the Shatz is quiet after Atah Kadosh, in which case it seems they wouldnt have tefila betzibur. (I suppose he COULD say the whole thing aloud)

    So in practice the Shevet Halevi has little bearing in this question

    As to the original OP

    “If people who are struggling to get a minyan call me to come,….”
    why is joining them a “chessed” If there is someone bed bound or a chiyuv or something I hear . But if its just a bunch of people too lazy to go to the shul that has a minyan davening, why is helping them daven beyechidus (according to most poskim) a chessed? If you want to do chessed offer them a ride to the big shul

    #1835656
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I found this shaila in Batzel Hachma (4,135) who says that the six davening is the majority and unite the rest to make it tefilah betzibur. Also the Minchas Yitzchok (9,7) rules similarly.

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