March 29, 2020 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1844143
It’s like this: We don’t serve roasted meat or poultry at the seder, for halachic reasons. I don’t think we can get beef this year. How does anybody serve chicken at the seder? Please help.March 29, 2020 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1844219☕️coffee addictParticipant
Baked?March 29, 2020 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1844220ys358Participant
You can boil the chicken the halachic problem is when it is baked or roasted (i.e. without liquid)March 29, 2020 10:17 am at 10:17 am #1844226
1. old fashioned soup chicken,.
2. sauce from a can of peaches mixed with ketchup. pour over chicken, simmer in a saucepan
3. Fried Lhalacha is considered mevushal
4. chop two onions, add a 3/4 cup of ketchup .cook for a few minutes then add the chicken and simmerMarch 29, 2020 10:17 am at 10:17 am #1844230CTLAWYERParticipant
Throwback recipe from the 1970s that my mother Z”L would make for the second seder.
Mix one bottle Russian dressing, one cup apricot jam and and one envelope of onion soup mix (for each chicken)
coat chicken parts well and allow to marinate for a couple of hours, Place in baking/roasting pan, pour the remaining marinade over the top and bake at 325 for about an hour.
Don’t have KP Russian dressing?, then use equal parts ketchup and mayonnaise with a little bit of diced pickle.
Keeps food extremely moist and as it is somewhat sweet it goes well with the vinegar based new kraut and relishes that are found on our Pesach table.March 29, 2020 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1844256☕️coffee addictParticipant
I’m glad I don’t do the cooking in the house 😜March 29, 2020 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1844260ubiquitinParticipant
chicken marsalaMarch 29, 2020 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1844268jdbParticipant
With chicken, so many amazing recipes with tomatoes, balsamic vinegar, look them up online. So tender, it’s one of my favorite dishes all year round.
I know someone who used to make a big turkey and baste it in orange juice. Stuff is with matza and goodies. Comes out great.
If you can get a roast (beef), baste it in wine, salt and pepper on the outside, then onion and garlic in the wine on the bottom. Bake it low and slow, it comes out amazing.March 29, 2020 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1844272funnyboneParticipant
Chicken and potatoes, onion, water to cover. Cook two hoursMarch 29, 2020 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1844300GadolhadorahParticipant
Does halacha prohibit throwing the chicken on your backyard grill and using a simple basting with simple sauce made from olive oil, honey fresh herbs and lemon? Keep it light and avoid heavy sweet sauces.March 29, 2020 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1844334
Mrs. Plony, do you eat gebrokts?March 29, 2020 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1844345
I know someone who used to make a big turkey and baste it in orange juice. Stuff is with matza and goodies. Comes out great.: only if one eats gebrokts.March 29, 2020 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1844564
These all sound good. Thank you, everybody, for your input.
BTW, I’m pretty sure that baked or grilled falls under the ‘roasted’ category, so we won’t be doing those for the seder. Maybe by other Pesach meals. But don’t rely on me – if you’ve been doing that for your sedorim, then consult your Rabbi.March 30, 2020 7:58 am at 7:58 am #1844641MilhouseParticipant
GHT, yes, grilling on the BBQ is roasting, and is not allowed at the seder. Pot roast, i.e. baked or cooked without added liquid, is not allowed either.
But baked with liquid shouldn’t be any different from cooked with liquid. After all, what difference does it make whether it’s cooked in a pot on the stove or in a pan in the oven? The main thing is that there is liquid, so it’s not a kind of roasting.
See siman 476, and the nos’ei keilim.March 30, 2020 7:58 am at 7:58 am #1844642MilhouseParticipant
PS: I’m not sure that a mere marinade counts as enough added liquid to save it from being considered a pot roast. I haven’t found a source that says how much liquid must be added, but it seems to me that it must be enough to change the nature of the cooking process from a dry one to a wet one.March 30, 2020 9:21 am at 9:21 am #1844704
We cook the chicken in a sauce grated horse radish, grated celery root, or tomato sauceMarch 30, 2020 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1844718
milhouse: Rabbi Ribiat in his hilchos pesach sefer )(page164) 2″-3″ of water (as heard from Rav Belsky ZATZAL)March 30, 2020 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1844743from Long IslandParticipant
Every year I make Chicken Cacciatore. It is cooked on the stove, then in the oven, covered for a few hours. The longer it cooks the softer it gets. No roasting, broiling.
FYI, now my daughters make it for their Sedurim. Family memories !!March 30, 2020 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1844901
from long island: do you have a recipe?March 31, 2020 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1845091
Yeah, from Long Island, is it some family secret, or can you share?
Millhouse, I’m so glad you were able to quote a source, because right now I don’t have the mindframe to look it up, and I was afraid that somebody would challenge me about Halacha.
(Hmm. I don’t think that ‘mindframe’ is a word, after all. Sorry.)
But anyway, could you please do me a favor, and avoid saying that something is “not allowed.” I know that you mean it in the best way, but without context it sounds a little judgmental, and right now the world is in such a severe state of din, that I just wish everybody would be soft, sweet, and loving. Even if it actually isn’t allowed, we can phrase it gently. Thanks.March 31, 2020 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1845151ari-freeParticipant
Milhouse you can grill chicken and then cook it in a sauce (source: Rabbi Lesches of Melbourne)
“Roasted meat or poultry may not be eaten
at the Seder, even if it was cooked prior to
roasting. However, it may be eaten if it was
cooked after roasting. [Liver is often just
roasted, and it should therefore not be
eaten at the Seder.] Pot-roast is treated as
regular roast, unless water or juice is added
before cooking.”March 31, 2020 7:55 am at 7:55 am #1845161
Mrs. Plony: is saying “included in the minhag of not eating TZLI” acceptable?March 31, 2020 7:56 am at 7:56 am #1845162
4. chop two onions, add a 3/4 cup of ketchup .cook for a few minutes then add the chicken and simmer . I forgot the other ingredient 3/4 cup of brown sugar.
Another thought: grind up some of the chicken and make chicken “meatballs” in tomato sauce.March 31, 2020 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1845575
Hi, lowerourtuition11210. I thought it was a halacha, not just a minhag. (Although minhagim are pretty serious, too.) But, yeah, I was thinking of phraseology along those lines. “It’s halachically problematic.”April 1, 2020 7:22 am at 7:22 am #1845632rationalParticipant
It is minhag, not halachah. The issur (Ashkenazic, sefradim permit) is roasting lamb on a rotisserie. Roasting in an oven is not roasting, but baking. Again, those who do not roast (bake) meat or chicken do so on the basis of minhag.April 1, 2020 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1846026
I do feel obligated to mention that even though a minhag is not a halacha, it’s still pretty serious.
So it sounds like the chicken cacciatore is the winner in my house.
This should be our worst problem, right?April 2, 2020 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1846098
Rational: While not eating tzli on pesach night is a minhag, tzli still has a halachic definition. Tzli by halachic definition means roasting, baking, cooking without the medium of a liquid. What we in english call “baking in the oven” if there is no liquid in the pan it is called tzli halachically. I can have two pans in the oven at the same time,
one with chicken and spices and no liquid and the other a piece of meat with 2 or 3 inches of liquid and the chicken halachically would be called tzli and the meat halachically would be called mevushal.April 2, 2020 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1846159
See SA O’CH 475,2 says for those who has a custom not to eat tzli chicken is included because of mares ayin, even though roasting without water in a pot is considered according to Rambam Hilchas Korban Pesach (8,8) like cooked.April 2, 2020 10:36 am at 10:36 am #1846169rationalParticipant
I respectfully disagree. While roasting on a rotisserie, the meat is roasted by the fire itself, hence the term tzli. When covered in an oven, it is not baked (cooked) by the fire, but by the boiling heat of the juices of the meat itself. These hot juices are considered liquid. In the rotisserie, the fat and juices drip out, unlike the oven where the liquid juices are maintained inside.
I cannot see any problem of mar’is ayin if something is in an oven. Furthermore, since there are different minhagim , and some allow for baking meat, or even using a rotisserie, there can be no issue of mar’is ayin.April 2, 2020 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1846195
Reb Eliezer: The mishna berurah says the opposite, “VAFILU TZLI KEIDAR (PIRUSH SHEHNITZLU BIKDEIRA BLO MAYIM VSHUM MASHKEH ELAH MISBASHEL B”MOHEL HAYOTZEI MEMENU) see 476:1:1 https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49627&st=&pgnum=175April 2, 2020 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1846216
lower, I said exactly what the MB said. It should be mutar because it is considered cooked but because of mares ayen it is assur.April 2, 2020 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1846249
Rational: you may disagree but as noted in my response to Reb Eliezer the Mishna Berur does not agree that the meat or chickens own juices are considered liquid to remove it form the TZLI category. see 476:1:1. In the same sif koton he says that tzli keidar is maras ayin.April 2, 2020 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1846354
Reb Eliezer: Neither my maggid shiur or my rov were medayik that it should be muttar as it is mevushal.April 2, 2020 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1846358GadolhadorahParticipant
Reb Elieizer: Sadly, this year, there will be no ayin to be mares…..the only ones at the seder are those already in the home who will know how it was cooked… For future years, hopefully moisiach will be around so we won’t be eating “chicken”. after the geulah.April 2, 2020 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1846250from Long IslandParticipant
Dredge chicken pieces in potato starch. In frying pan with oil, brown & remove.
Add more oil. Add in 1 onion (per chicken) diced, 1/2 green pepper diced (per chicken), a 16 oz. can or 16 ounces fresh mushrooms sliced. Soften & lightly brown.
Add a 32 Oz. can chopped tomatos, 2 cans tomato sauce, 4 cans of water. Sugar to taste (so it does not taste bitter).
Bring to boil.
Lower to simmer. Submerge chicken in sauce, let cook at least a 1/2 hour covered. check a couple of times to make sure nothing is burning.
Cool. Put into tin trays, cover tightly. (I freeze at this point).
Ready to eat ? Put into oven defrosted, at least 2 hours before eating at 325. and Done.
Remember, the longer it sits in the oven, covered tightly, the better it will taste.
FYI, during the year I add sliced garlic (a ton) to the frying veggies. We don’t use on Pesach.April 2, 2020 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1846431
GH. You know that if something is assur because of mares ayin even bechadrei chadorim is assur.
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