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  • #916429
    Naysberg
    Member

    Rambam paskens Christianity is avoda zora for goyim. (Some of the achronim living in European countries couldn’t write this fact, too, since the church censors didn’t allow them to publish it.)

    #916430
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ZD: High church Anglicans (such as the Church of England) do believe in transubstantiation.

    #916431
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Christianity is not avodah zarah.

    Otherwise, we wouldn’t allow doing business with them three days before their holidays.

    And, I outlined many poskim who affirm that Christianity is not idolatrous.

    The Bnei Noach movement is a fallacy; Bnei Noach is a halakhic categorization for gentiles who believe in G-d and fall under the Meiri’s category of umot that are dictated by the ways of religion. It is NOT a pseudo-Judaism for gentiles, as Habad and other groups have turned it into.

    #916432
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “drink the wine and eat the cracker”

    But they leave out the cheese.

    #916433
    aurora77
    Participant

    Hello yytz,

    Thank you for explaining more to me about the Noachide laws — I am somewhat confused as to where those who follow the Noachide laws fit into Judaism…is it a splinter group of some sort? I see it referenced here on various threads and am puzzled. I hope all is going well with you 🙂

    #916434
    Sam2
    Participant

    Rebdoniel: Wrong again. 3 days only applies in Eretz Yisrael. And most Christians that we see are Protestants, who (almost) everyone agree isn’t Avodah Zarah. See the Rambam Avodah Zarah 5:4 (I think; and the uncensored versions) where he says that you can never do business with Catholics in E”Y because Sunday is a holiday and 3 days before and after means every single day.

    #916435
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 – Why are you ignoring the Rema?

    #916436
    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I’m not ignoring the Rama. He is a member of a minority and some try to read him as well as saying that Ein Hachi Nami it’s Avodah Zarah, but we’re allowed to do business with those that keep this Avodah Zarah. Also, it’s entirely possible that there are censorship issues here. Many editions of the Shulchan Aruch in Orach Chayim 114 (104?), where he calls a cross Avodah Zarah, were censored out. And the Rama doesn’t disagree there.

    #916437
    benignuman
    Participant

    Whether Christianity is a Avoda Zara for non-Jews is a machlokes Rishonim. The Baalei HaTosafos (and other Ashkenazi Rishonim) held it was not Avoda Zara for non-Jews and the Rambam (who had much less contact with Christians) held it was Avoda Zara. The Meiri who was in between Sephard and Ashkenaz held that it was not Avoda Zara.

    That is not Avoda Zara is the dominant position among Ashkenazim.

    #916438
    Chulent
    Member

    That is not correct benignuman. The Ashkenazi Rishonim/Achronim lived under Christian rule and thus could not publish their Seforim with it saying Christianity is Avoda Zora, as the censors would not allow it.

    #916439
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Chulent,

    You take a very academic approach, which is what others accuse me of.

    Jacob Katz wrote extensively on how living in a Christian world heavily influenced the psakim of Rashi, Rabbeinu Tam, Rema, and other Ashkenazi poskim on the status of Christianity.

    Granted that we live in a Christian society, as well, perhaps we should consider these opinions so that we have good relations with our neighbors.

    #916440
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Go look up this Tosfos that allegedly says Xianity is not AZ; you will find that it doesn’t quite say that. At most it’s one option given, and not the final one. The basic position of the Baalei Hatosfos is that it is AZ, but that for one reason or another we’re allowed to do business with them, and to derive benefit from buying and selling their wines, despite this fact.

    All this discussion though is beside the point: rather than explain why going to churches is really muttar, etc., let’s accept what seems pretty clear, that it is assur. <i>However</i> there is a whole area of halacha for shtadlanim, which has very generous heterim. Nor is this some modern mishguas; it goes back all the way to Nechemiah, who was called Hatirshoso because he received a heter to drink goyishe wine! Have you heard of such a thing?! Imagine anyone today daring to drink goyishe wine becuase he’s a shtadlan! And yet Nechemiah did so, and he did it with the permission of the chachomim of his day. Because shtadlonus has its own gedorim and one can’t learn from that to other things.

    #916441
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“He is a member of a minority and some try to read him as well as saying that Ein Hachi Nami it’s Avodah Zarah, but we’re allowed to do business with those that keep this Avodah Zarah.”

    Can you name these Shittos/Achronim?

    “Also, it’s entirely possible that there are censorship issues here. Many editions of the Shulchan Aruch in Orach Chayim 114 (104?), where he calls a cross Avodah Zarah, were censored out. And the Rama doesn’t disagree there.”

    First of all, a Tzelem (Cross) could be AZ without the religion being one for Goyim. Second of all, I’ve heard this from many people, everytime I mention this Rema -they say the censor. To me anything that doesn’t personally agree with your Shittos -you can wipe away the S’A by just saying the Censor did it.

    Also, if it was the censor – then Achronim wouldn’t Pasken like this Rema. They knew at least as much as people nowadays regarding censorship. I’ve seen at least one Achron Pasken like this Rema Halacha L’meysa!

    #916442
    yytz
    Participant

    Thanks, Aurora — I hope all is well with you too! RebDoniel, Noahidism is not a fallacy. It’s a reality, and a necessity. Many people nowadays become convinced that Orthodox Judaism is true, and other religious are not. Not all of those people can convert, for whatever reason — for example, many do not live near Orthodox communities.

    Some of those people do not want to convert, because they understand that they do not to convert to earn a share in the World to Come (or, more kabbalistically speaking, accomplish their tikkun, their soul correction.) There is a huge difference between following the Noahide laws and being a completely observant Jew, because there are many details of Jewish law — Shabbos, Kashrus, davening, taharas mishpachah, etc. — which are not required of Noahides.

    Now if a Noahide has a strong desire to join the Jewish people and follow all the mitzvos of the Torah, then that person is probably meant to convert. But not all Noahides have that desire. That said, I’ve head that many people active for many years in the Noahide movement become dissatisfied with “merely” being a Noahide and convert.

    The “Aleinu” prayer, which is recited three times a day, looks forward to a time in the future in which all the nations will follow Hashem and cease all idolatry. That doesn’t mean everyone will convert. Most of the world will be Noahides; only a minority will convert. Once the Messianic era begins, converts will no longer be accepted. Presumably, Moshiach will inspire the whole non-Jewish world to become Noahides (perhaps retaining some of their non-Jewish beliefs and practices if they aren’t forbidden to non-Jews).

    Noahidism as a “religion” is only a recent phenomenon because, well, freedom of religion and the dispersion of good information about Judaism through books and the Internet, is a really new thing. In the past, people convinced of the truth of Judaism just converted or forged their own individualistic path. Now, there are enough believers unable or uninterested in conversion for Noahidism to become a viable movement. Even so, it’s a pretty small movement and I’ve never met an actual Noahide.

    #916443
    rebdoniel
    Member

    There are different opinions on what will happen to non-Jews when the Moshiach comes.

    Some say that they will all convert to Judaism.

    As far as the Noahide movement, I suggest the rabim read the Sefer Yisrael v’ haAmim by the gaon, Rav Eliyahu Benamozegh.

    He was of the shita that those who fall under the Meiri’s shita would automatically be considered Noahides, since world religions generally are ethical and monotheist (even Hindus affirm the concept of a unified Godhead).

    #916444
    Chulent
    Member

    They will become servants to Jews, after Moshiach.

    #916445
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Chulent,

    That is an answer which not only rubs me and a lot of people the wrong way, but also is not definitive.

    Sources, please?

    #916446
    benignuman
    Participant

    Chulent,

    Your rational for discounting the opinion of the Ashkenazi Rishonim is speculation. You are claiming that they were just self-censoring, but you have no evidence that or that in the absence of self-censoring they would have held Christianity to be Avoda Zara.

    Is it not equally plausible that having more contact with Christians and possibly discussing theology with Christians, Ashkenazi Chachomim had a better understanding of Christianity than someone like the Rambam.

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