July 26, 2011 3:33 am at 3:33 am #790105yossiefMember
If you are a mandated reporter, your job could be in jeopardy and you could be sued if you do not follow the law. Therefore, I believe, that any ROV would allow you to report, and not put your job at risk. If that is the case, what is the point of asking a ROV? Would he Pasken against the law?
Someone actually wrote an article in the Jewish Press not too long ago, making the same point.July 26, 2011 3:49 am at 3:49 am #790106
If you are a mandated reporter, your job could be in jeopardy and you could be sued if you do not follow the law.
If you are a Jew, your neshoma could be in jeopardy and you could be punished if you do not follow halacha.
Therefore, I believe, that any ROV would allow you to report, and not put your job at risk.
And instead put your neshama at risk so you can keep your job?
If that is the case, what is the point of asking a ROV?
To stop yourself from breaking halacha and to save your neshama.
Would he Pasken against the law?
Rather than pasken against halacha?July 26, 2011 4:18 am at 4:18 am #790107
Chein, you are being rather callous both with the parnassah of thousands of Jews, and also with the opinions of some gedolim who have paskened that it is a chiyuv to report suspected abuse to the secular authorities rather than to a rabbi.
Furthermore, nobody has identified a rabbi who is trained in forensic investigations, knows how to connect and preserve evidence, and can compel both testimony from witnesses and the collection of evidence.July 26, 2011 8:10 am at 8:10 am #790109July 26, 2011 11:01 am at 11:01 am #790110jmj613Participant
I fully agree with aries2756. It seems she is dealing with cases of child abuse. I dont wish anyone to get to know this topic from being involved with own kids or close relatives c`v but believe me all you would change your minds afterwards.July 26, 2011 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #790111happiestMember
Are teachers in private schools also mandated reporters or they don’t have the same law as public school teachers (I’m talking about NY)? I was told that private school teachers are not yet mandated reporters but they are trying to make it a law that they should become them. Is this true?July 26, 2011 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #790112farrockawayParticipant
Ben Levi- notice I gave you a quote of 95-99%. I did not say 100%. The article you quoted falls into the 5% here. It’s better safe than sorry. We can’t let our children continue to be molested because we are afraid we are reporting the wrong person. I am not saying the person needs to be sent to jail immediately, but if a child reports abuse the matter should be investigated to find out whether there are other victims.
One molester on the streets, means a number of kids being molested.Is it worth it?July 26, 2011 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #790113
We can’t let our children continue to be molested because we are afraid we are reporting the wrong person.
The Torah mandates us to not masser the wrong person. Halacha is that we rather free a guilty person than risk punishing an innocent one.July 26, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #790114
First of I have no idea how one would infer from what I wrote that I am stating that there are no cases of abuse in the Jewish Community, considering the Rambam himself wrote in Mishne Torah that each and every generation has their share of “prutzim b’arayos” it would be foolhardy of me to make such an assertion.
Farrockaway, You must not have read my post I was qouting the statistics as well as consesus on child testimony. Chein brought from the WSJ. How you continue to state something which was proven to be wrong as well as dangerous over 20 years ago is beyond me.
Again research continues to prove that Mandated Reporting Laws do nothing to protect children and are more likely to be detrimental to the saaftey of children then helpful.July 26, 2011 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #790115
I would add that when one realizes that Yes, there are real abusers out there and they must be stopped, one truly shudders at the dangers of cetain attitudes.
An essential part of stopping an abuser is the need that such accusations be taken seriously by all. Yet many have succeaded in turning this issue into a oke.
Every time another innocent person is accused, every time another baseless accusation is leveled a littl more credibilty is lost from the charge of “child molestation”. The end result is the same as in the Boy who Cried Wolf. When a real danger happens it may unfortunatley be ignored.
That is scary.July 26, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #790116YW Moderator-20ModeratorJuly 26, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #790117
I would venture to say that there is not a single member of the RCA that is even in the same Ballpark of Halachic Knowledge as Rav Elyashiv shlita nor of any other Gedolei Poskim.July 26, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #790118
By the way what chein has said posted is easy to understand for those who have real emunah.
We ultimatley are not G-d and therefore cannot really punish appropriatley, rather we must follow the Torah’s guidance.]
If we cause harm to an innocent individual no matter how worthy our intentions, we will have to pay for the damage inflicted.
On the other hand if a guilty person walks free because we are following Hashems rules then ultimatley it is Hashem the Father of all of us who is responsible and will ensure that the proper things take place.
See Meseches Makkos about one who kills B’shogeig for further elaborationJuly 26, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #790119a maminParticipant
Look at the news from RCA posted in Yeshiva World News.July 27, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #790121aries2756Participant
Ben Levi, the reason I don’t answer you is because there is no point. You are not interested in knowing the true facts as “others have pointed out to you” and you are not concerned with the victims. You just like to argue and win. So I’m not going there. I have better things to do with my energy than play games or be bated by nonsense.July 27, 2011 12:48 am at 12:48 am #790122
I do not quite understand your question.
1) Halacha is Halacha, I cannot change it.
2) Regarding Tikkun Olam: numerous studies continue to show the horrific results of these ill concieved laws which to paraphrase one researcher may very well have resulted in the cure being worse then the crime. Families, children, and whole communities have been destroyed. Numerous effective methods of chinuch and child raising that saved untold numbers of children from the scourge of child neglect (according to the statistics there are roughly 6 cases of neglect for every 1 case of molestation) have been thrown aside whith terrible consequences.
3) There is no place where there was a problem that Mandated Reporting laws were implemented and resulted in helping the situation get better. Rather in every case where Mandated Reporting Laws were implemented the situation has gotten worse.
4)To protect against Child Molestation the accusation of Child Molestation must be taken seriously to avoid a “boy who cries wolf” situation. Yet Mandatory Reporting laws have caused this “claim” to be considered one of the most belittled out there and in the words of researchers given rise to an “epidemic” of false claims.
5) As the father of young children I view it as my responsibilty to protect them and as a result when this debate first started spent untold hours researchig this issue (as can be seen from the numerous actual real statistics I am able to provide) and as a result try to “raise the alarm” that we stand at the precipice of implementing Failed ideas and destroying our children in the process.
So far no one has been able to refute anything I have been saying. I am still waiting to see someone take up the challenge.July 27, 2011 12:52 am at 12:52 am #790123
I and the other posters am interested in the truths Ben Levi is pointing out, even if the truth hurts. We need to insure no further false accusations against innocent people accused of abuse destroys any more lives or families.July 27, 2011 1:05 am at 1:05 am #790124
You stated that a potch is different.
You also mention having gone to Albany.
I wonder are you part of the Board of Jewish Advocates for children that testified in Albany?
I wonder because you see in their submitted testimony they went to great lenths to try to convince Albany that they must strenously enforce the No Hitting Laws in all schools including Private schools. Since in many schools this rule is violated and children are subected to “child abuse”.
How do I know this?
Because I read that Testimony all of it.
I also showed it to Rabboim who were utterly shocked, it seems that they had not been told of these views nor did they think that there would be “frum” yidden who would go to secular authorities to attempt to force their way of chinuch upon others and call them “child abusers” in the process.July 27, 2011 1:32 am at 1:32 am #790125aries2756Participant
Chein, I and other posters are interested in keeping our children safe and no longer sacrificing their minds, bodies and souls on the very small chance that there will be a false claim. The odds lean heavily 96% toward true claims on this issue and on those odds alone are enough to start putting our precious children first. Adults can take care of themselves much better than kids can, even in the small off chance that a Frum child will bring a false claim. And again, in the goyish world there is a less than 4% statistic of false claims. In the Frum world where kids are so very sheltered and have no knowledge on this issue, the “false” claims odds will in all probability be even less than 3%.
Posting stories of false claims doesn’t prove anything. Would you like to hear the stories of real abuse? Fortunately and unfortunately the Mods won’t let the real details through. So what stories do you want to hear aside from the gory details. Do you want to hear how their lives were ruined. How they went from one abusive relationship to another after that? How they never married? How they turned to alcohol and drugs to ease their pain and trauma? How they went OTD? Or do you want to hear from the families who’s kids committed suicide or died from an overdose of self-medication?July 27, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #790126
Hate to break it to you but each and every single credible report show that your assertion that 96% of allegations are accurate is 100% false.
As I have outed from research papers and another paper has shown from the WSJ. This in fact is a thought process that was proven wrong and deadly wrong over 20 years ago.
Why do you insist on qouting demonstably wrong statistics? Why cant you attempt to find some real ones? Why cant you do as others have done and bing real numbers?
And how can you state that in the frum world children have absolutley no knowledge of these issues when those in your camo advocate teaching these issues to children at an extremley young age?
And how can you reasonably claim to care about the welfare of children when each and every one of the policies you want put in place in the ewish Chinuch system has already been tried in numerous places to disastorous effect?July 27, 2011 3:33 am at 3:33 am #790127
And of course in each and every instance where teenagers have gone OTD or done other terrible things it is because of “Child Molestation”.
Is’nt it funny that some 15 years ago there was a groundbreaking JO about OTD.
Many Gedolim warned against it, saying it would legitimize behaviour and make a bad problem wors.
Lo and Behold, A bad problem become wors.
THe cause has finally been discovered.
It wasn’t because Gedolim had been ignored. No Ch”V.
It is because of the Hithero unknown scourge of Child Molestation.
Introduce Mandated Reporting and the problem will dissapear!
Let me be the first to inform you that once again it would be wise to listen to the Gedolim who are once again screaming.
You are playing with Fire!
You are playing with the neshomas of yiddishe kinder!
You will make a bad problem worse.
But don’t worry then you will have the next newfound issue to deal with and the destruction left in the wake of these policies will be nothing more then unintended consequences.
Oh and those famillies destroyed?
The kids that will never have shidduchim? The hundreds of talented individuals that couldv’e become Rabbeim but refuse to risk their families?
The dozens of kids that will be abuse by a real abuser r”l that could not be stopped because of a public weary of false claims? The yeshivos destroyed because of a few individuals?
The children from broken homes or “latch key” kids, the shy kids that could have been helped if a Rebbi would have just summoned the courage to give the kid a hug?
Don’t worry you will not have to ansewer for those kids those hundreds and thousands of kids, ’cause after all they will be the unfortunate unintended consequences.July 27, 2011 3:42 am at 3:42 am #790129
The Catholic Church has been destroyed in parts of the world by its unwillingness to deal with the problem of abusive clergy. This should be a warning for us.July 27, 2011 3:45 am at 3:45 am #790130
“Furthermore, nobody has identified a rabbi who is trained in forensic investigations, knows how to connect and preserve evidence, and can compel both testimony from witnesses and the collection of evidence.”
Still waiting for such a rabbi to be identified.July 27, 2011 5:06 am at 5:06 am #790131
You seem to be a big fan of Liberal Media Outlets.
Well check our Mondays Edition of the NYT theres a Letter to the editor from a Proffessor of Theology who states that the main cause of the problems in the Catholic church is a result of the policy of celibacy. He also mentions that this explains why there has not been any such widespread problems found in the clergy of other religions.
I’m not endorsing the letter nor stating I agree with it, just thought I would bring it to your attention.
I wonder if what we should learn from the Cathlic Church is not to promote Celibacy.
Oh, I forgot we already discourage it.July 27, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #790132
As for your claim that there are members of the RCA as knowledgeable as Rav Elyashiv.
I doubt that there is a single member of the RCA who would even think about making such a claim.
It is ludicrous to even suggest it and basically shows that the claimint has very little understanding of Halachic IssuesJuly 27, 2011 5:11 am at 5:11 am #790133
As for a Rabbi trained in “collecting evidence”
I forgot what does that have to do with the issue at hand?
Real Statistics have shown Mandating Reporting Laws to be an utter failure and to possibly cause even more Damage then real Abuse.
As such, I along with many other level headed individuals have argued that it is foolishness to introduce things that have already failed and had an untold number of horrific “unintended consequences” into our communities.
What exactly does that have to do with your question?July 27, 2011 5:22 am at 5:22 am #790134
By the way, For those who have both the time and ability as well as the courage to do so I would suggest that a counter movement be started by those concerned with truly protecting our children.
The orginazation would be dedicated towards fighting anyone who suggests instituting Mandatory Reporting Laws in our communites.
Our Families, children, and communities are to precious to be used as the sacrificial lambs in someone elses experiments that have already been proven to be a horrific failure.
However to start such an orginazation would require real courage as the person would most definetley be attacked for being “backwards” “intolerant” “uncaring” and attempting a “coverup”.
Never mind if it is Parents and Grandparents, Rabbeim and Teachers (who really and truly teach not the ones who just give speeches sort of like the difference between Economic Proffessors and real world Buisnessmen).
Still I am sure they would be accused.
What is ironic is that it is really the accussers who are going backwards in time.
Using Statistics that have been proven False.
Using assumptions that have been Proven untrue.
Using Methods that have already failed and caused destruction.
Oh and you wanna know another interesting tidbit?
You know Joe Manchin the Democratic Senator from West Virginia?
Well he used to be the Governor of West Virgina and when he was Governor for some reason he saw the need to sign a bill criminizing any false accusation of child abuse that is leveled and giveing the accused the right to sue even if no charges were ultimatley brought!
Interesting is’nt it?
So I admit that yes it would be a difficult task to start such an orginization.
But I for one would be eternally grateful to the people who have such courage, for it is the lives of my young children they would be attempting to protect.July 27, 2011 6:28 am at 6:28 am #790136hello99Participant
It’s dissapointing when a poster who has cultivated an image as wise and logical shows a very different side to their personality.
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