August 14, 2019 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1774634
As of midnight August 14, the Child Victims Act ( CVA ) went into effect. Under the old law the statute of limitation for civil lawsuits ended at age 21. Under the new law it is 55 and there is a 12 month “lookback” period that will allow lawsuits regardless of how long ago the abuse occurred or the victim’s age. Over 100 lawsuits were electronically filed within minutes.
Yeshivas will be subjected to these lawsuits as well. The law allows suits against not just the molester but any person or institution who knew of and allowed the abuse to go on. That could include misaskim who worked with the molester and victim to keep things quiet. There was a case years ago where a summer camp, in return for the victim not seeking financial damages, removed the molester from the camp. One week after the victim turned 21, the camp reinstated the counselor ,thinking that it was safe. Now they can be sued.August 14, 2019 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1774774
without making this thread about ANY specifics, and just going generally with the scenario you presented, why would that be a bad thing?August 14, 2019 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1774779
B’HAugust 14, 2019 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1774822
The major impact will be on very old cases where an emplyer is being sued for what an now deceased employee is alleged to have done, with no way to prove or disprove matters. The lawyer gets paid off since it cheaper to buy off the lawyer than to litigate, the “victim” gets some money, the dead person is dead. Very good deal for the lawyer. Some could argue that lawyers are an economic growth engine…..August 14, 2019 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1774844
akuperma – I haven’t read the text of the laws but from what I *have* read the school won’t be held responsible unless they had some part in protecting someone. So that argument sounds more like a set up to make it sound like a random act of injustice when that isn’t the case.
When misinformation gets presented as a premise, it manipulates the uninformed to form opinions and give support in ways they might not have meant to do.August 14, 2019 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1774849
The US government is becoming crazier and crazier. This act will bring justice to maybe 5 % of vitims (who had many years prior to come forward) and keep the corrupt “justice system” that employs millions of judges and employees with jobs, not to mention enriching lawyers, while 95% of the people getting hit by this will be innocent people. It’s utterly depicable.August 14, 2019 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1774864
Philosopher – I may be wrong but I would bet your statement is pure emotion and conjecture. You give a rant and include percentages and “facts” while my guess is that you are just making it up based on what you feel or heard someone else say, and that you may not even be well versed in either the law, the actual workings of the justice system, or the subject.
This is another example of what I mentioned above.August 14, 2019 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1774875
Syag, well obviously my opinion is not facts – there is no one one will know that actual number of actual cases of abuse because there is no proof! If you think that people now are not being accused wrongly then you are wrong. Kol shekein after so many years have passed there will be even more innocent people being dragged into this. So maybe 95% of the people won’t be innocent, but even if 50% of innocent people who will be effected by this law and their lives left in financial and emotional ruin, that is enough.
I know for a fact, that normal looking people can actually be very sick and implicate innocent people. There were people accused who claimed they were innocent and given lie detectors test which proved that they were saying the truth. But lie detector tests can not always be used in court.
The bottom line is that proof will not be able to be provided in most cases and this will be taken advantage of by sick individuals of which there are many out there.August 14, 2019 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1774879
you obviously have your own opinions on this subject, but then present them that way. To state facts and percentages out of a hat is sheker. You can’t build a case of facts based on your opinions. I promise you I also have very strong opinions about this subject but that is irrelevant here. I am telling you to present your information honestly and straight. Otherwise this just turns into another vax/anti vax yelling match with people spewing opinions as if they were published data.August 14, 2019 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1774893
Syag, sorry, I should’ve state that it was my opinion but I thought it was obvious as this act was just enacted so nobody can have any statistics on this act yet ( and never will but that’s another story).August 14, 2019 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1774891
Here is a rule of thumb I see when reading comments about this law.
Those who hate the frum world and are the type to automatically take the anti frum side see it as a wonderful development.
Those who are not anti frum see it very differently.
e.g. On the anti frum blogs the law is being lauded
Even Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz with his consistent advocacy for protection for abuse and for abuse victims is against it.
The rest is all commentary.August 14, 2019 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1774904
“Those who hate the frum world and are the type to automatically take the anti frum side see it as a wonderful development.”
that comment is stupider than saying all trump supporters are white supremicists, including the Jews.
Pure motzei shem rah on any number of people and totally ignorant.August 14, 2019 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1774905
but I guess I should be thrilled that you didn’t have pretend statistics to “back it up”August 14, 2019 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1774931
Syag, ok whatever. I thought it was obvious, but not to you I guess. But you want to be riled up about my projection, go ahead, be my guest.
Btw, I can rant against this act how much I want. Too bad if it bothers you.August 14, 2019 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1774932
I bet if a Rosh Yeshiva had told a bocher 30 years ago to go to McDonalds on Shabbos and get him a cheeseburger you wouldnt feel the same way about that Rosh Yeshiva ever again and the yeshiva that refused to fire himAugust 14, 2019 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1774923
Philosopher, you unfortunately sound like the people who , in the Coffee Room ) maintained that all the accusations were false. As Syag keeps pointing out, the facts will speak for themselves. Many people couldn’t/didn’t come forward earlier because the statute of limitations ran out at age 21 , which was the point of this law.
Even if the yeshivas win all lawsuits filed against them ( and there will be lawsuits ) the legal bills will be crippling.August 14, 2019 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1774913
Syag: It would be bad because suing for financial compensation in secular court is assur al pi Torah lchol hadeios as arkois.August 14, 2019 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1774915
Anti-frum people love seeing frum people being held accountable for crimes they committed. That doesn’t mean frum people shouldn’t be held accountable.August 14, 2019 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1774976
Joseph, I can’t imagine a victim getting a fair hearing in a bais din. Just like the Satmer brothers who have been b.c battling it out in civil court for years, victims have no recourse other than secular courtsAugust 14, 2019 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1774979
Phil- i don’t care about your projections, i care that you made them up. Why is it a problem to ask people to use integrity and emes when they speak? Amazing.August 14, 2019 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1775042
Comments (1) that comment is stupider than saying all trump supporters are white supremicists, including the Jews.
Pure motzei shem rah on any number of people and totally ignorant.
Comments (2)but I guess I should be thrilled that you didn’t have pretend statistics to “back it up”
Whoa, Syag Lchocma,
I knew my comment would hit a raw nerve but I still was expecting a more intelligent response. After all, you have the entire anti frum social media world to copy them from…August 14, 2019 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1775039
anonymous Jew, please point out where I’ve said all accusations are false. I believe a majority of these cases will be false. And I don’t agree with you that there are always facts available in these cases, especially 55 years later! That’s insane! It does not take up to 55 years for a person to wake up! Upping the age to 25 is perfectly understandable, but till 55 is absolutely ridiculous!
There were many people imprisoned simply because the victims were more BELIEVABLE, not necessarily because facts were presented.August 14, 2019 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1775040
anonymous Jew: If an activity is prohibited according to halakha, then it is impermissible to engage in said activity regardless whether one feels the alternative is unfair or unreasonable. As such one must refrain from doing what is prohibited.
That said, if I may relate my personal experience as an attorney-at-law, the corruption and even moreso the unfairness and injustice that occurs in America’s (or for that matter foreign) court systems is beyond description and far in excess of any complaints one may lay at any legitimate Beit Din.August 14, 2019 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1775050
Sorry smerel, it wasn’t a raw nerve, it was my jew bashing detector alarm going off. Raw nerve would be if i bothered discussing the topic at hand, which would not be worthwhile. I’m just commenting on your ability to speak motzei she ra on a huge group of yidden based on your views.
Regarding social media – outside of the CR and personal whatsapps I dont have social media, dont visit social media and don’t (on principle) even read comments section of ywn and matzav articles (the only pages I will visit). So i dont know what you’re talking about. But you seem well versed so care to fill me in?
Or better yet, please don’tAugust 14, 2019 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1775070
I’m not hiding the fact that is was my projection and opinion. I neglected to say that in my original post because I thought it’s self-evident. I apologized for not writing that in my original post. If that’s sheker in your book, so be it. It’s not sheker in my book because I’m not selling an untruth, I simply forgot to write that it’s my opinion because I thought it’s obvious to everyone that it’s my opinion as there cannot be statistics on a law that is not yet signed into law.
I am very impressed that you are so extremely careful not to ever make mistakes. I am not on your modreige, unfortunately.August 14, 2019 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1775066
Philosopher, I didn’t say you said it, I just compared your undocumented assertion that many were false to the claims made in the CR in past years that all were false.
false. How do you know that many were unfairly imprisoned? Why does the new age limit to file bother you so much? Since these cases tend to taken on a contingency basis, my guess is a lawyer won’t accept a case he knows they can’t win. As to your other comment regarding age, my older sister was molested 68 years ago and her statute of limitations ran out in 1963. Age didn’t just wake up; my parents didn’t believe her and the Rosh Yeshiva wouldn’t act on it. As a result she stopped being religious.
Lake hill, the victims who are no longer frum are not going to go to bais din. Bais Dins aren’t exactly paragons of judicial virtue. A reason why the Satmer brothers have been in civil court is because ( surprise!!) each brothers bais din said they were right.August 14, 2019 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1775065
Only issue I can fathom is having an institution with all new staff and members be on the hook for old workers crimes.
Otherwise who cares about the years that passed.
If you go Joseph’s route why is a one year period better?
The issue is secular courtAugust 14, 2019 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1775170
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Philosopher, FWIW, I think it was quite obvious that you were stating an opinion, not making up statistics.August 15, 2019 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1775181
anonymous Jew, it bothers me is 1. because I don’t have blind faith in our “justice” system. Read Lakewill’s post for some perspective. 2. I know people who are incredibly viscous and know how to lie like you’d never believe and many of them have no problem ruining other people’s lives by telling lies to get money or for other reasons.
What’s wrong with changing the statude of limitations to 25 years of age? It is highly suspicious when suddenly reminds themselves at age 35, 45 or 55 that they were abused. Remember Judge Kavanaough will all his accusers? There are meshegoyim out there that have no problem abusing such a law.August 15, 2019 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1775182
DaasYochid, thank you.August 15, 2019 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1775195
People don’t *suddenly* remember at 55. That’s just how long it takes for some people to scrape themselves out of the sewer their lives have turned into by getting molested by the people closest to them, and then being spit in the faces and left to rot by the people who didn’t believe them when it happened. Then it can take them 20 years to stop blaming themselves and spend a decade convincing themselves that unlike 35 years earlier, this time someone might believe them and support them. But maybe not, and risk dying another death. Yes, sometimes it takes people that long.August 15, 2019 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1775202
Anyone who supports the use of arkois in a civil lawsuit by a Jew against other Jews, cannot be considered to be religious or Orthodox or a Ben/Bas Torah.August 15, 2019 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1775206
Joseph, the people who are still religious is any form after having been sexually abused ate to be commended to the highest degree. The fact that they are able to be religious shows that their belief in hashem overrides the excruciating pain they went through at the hands of “religious” people.
If they want to use a secular court because they saw that the religous community had no interest in supporting them when they reached out for help, then who can blame them.
The problem is that most people who were abused are no longer willing to have very much to do with religionAugust 15, 2019 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1775208
Those are harsh words for the satmar rovsAugust 15, 2019 2:24 am at 2:24 am #1775213
“my older sister was molested 68 years ago and her statute of limitations ran out in 1963. Age didn’t just wake up; my parents didn’t believe her”
Just a theory. If you parents had believed her, I think her life would be very different right now.
I have a friend whom when she told her parents, they responded, “okay, let’s just check with him and see if your story adds up.”
BH we now have organizations like Amudim that guide parents when their kids come forward with these allegations.August 15, 2019 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1775219
“I have a friend whom when she told her parents, they responded, “okay, let’s just check with him and see if your story adds up.”
I feel like crying- I hope they came around eventually, although I am not holding my breathAugust 15, 2019 6:27 am at 6:27 am #1775227
Syag, the only reason I use that example is point out to Joseph that there are extenuating circumstances that can cause religious people to resort to civil courtAugust 15, 2019 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1775224
This law will has limited effect on yeshivas and Jewish day schools as they have limited assets, rely on fundraising to pay any short falls and are individually owned. The Catholic Church which runs all of their schools in a district and has lots of assets will be effected. Lawyers will not sue unless they know their is a good chance of them recovering money. Even if there is a strong case against the yeshiva and the plaintiff wins, the yeshiva could declare bankruptcy and since most yeshivas are in poor financial health, walk away without paying anything.August 15, 2019 8:31 am at 8:31 am #1775238
Abba_S, it costs a lot of money simply to be sued and dragged to court. Mosdos don’t have an extra dollar, never mind paying for laywers for long drawn out trials- these things can go on for months and even years.August 15, 2019 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1775232
ABBA, i agree that, as I mentioned above, lawyers are probably going to go after deep pocketed institutions ( the Catholic Church, Boy Scouts ) . When it comes to yeshivas,all they have to do is find wealthy board members and donors who would have the resources. Keep in mind that the National Agudah could be a target , primarily because of its summer camp.
From this morning’s paper, money does not appear to be everyone’s motivation. Some of the people suing simply want the organization/school/religious body to finally come clean and admit what they allowed to happen.August 15, 2019 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1775230
AJ – oh I realize that, I was responding to JosephAugust 15, 2019 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1775315
AJ: I have no idea about the background of the Williamsburg lawsuit you and Syag refer to but the only time it is permissible to engage in arkois is when a Beis Din first issues a Heter Arkois. That’s generally only possible if the other party failed to respond to a B”D hazmana. Presumably this is what occurred in that case.
Nevertheless, the idea that a Jew may civilly sue another Jew in non-Jewish courts without first seeking to resolve the case in Beis Din has no basis in Halacha and is unquestionably prohibited m’doraisa. So the idea that it is okay to initiate a lawsuit in secular court clearly indicates that person is irreligious/non-Orthodox even if they claim otherwise, no less so than if they eat pork.August 15, 2019 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1775372
It will be interesting to see if there are really as many lawsuits against yiddeshe mosdos as some predicted based on the intense political lobbying by orthodox organizations against the new legislation. There have been a few individuals making such allegations for years, but rarely offering any supporting evidence (which as others have noted is very difficult when the alleged assailant is deceased and most of these mosdos did not maintain detailed records).August 15, 2019 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1775532
” I have no idea about the background of the Williamsburg lawsuit you and Syag refer to ”
😂😂😂August 15, 2019 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1775472
Joseph, please stop. Bais Dins and yeshivas have ignored the problem for decades. That alone should be enough grounds to pursue justice in secular courts.
In October 2016 a prominent Brooklyn yeshiva agreed to pay a $2.1 million settlement for the sexual molestation of two boys. The molester had been allowed to teach for over 25 years, despite decades of allegations.
So tell me Joseph, would a bais din have accomplished or resolved anything?August 15, 2019 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1775573
AJ: Stop being motzi shem ra holy Jewish mosdos. The problem has always been a tiny one confined to a very small number of places and individuals. Over the last 75 years there were not more than a few handful of real cases.
Aside from the above point, even if there were hundreds of cases, that it irrelevent to the issur gamur of using arkois. Do you have even the slightest inkling of the severity of the issur of arkois?
And as was pointed out, the non-Jewish courts are full of corruption and injustices. It is a travesty for any cases to be put to the whims of potentially 12 homeless drunkard jurors who can get selected from the lowest dredges of society.August 15, 2019 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1775607
As far as member of the board being liable for actions of the yeshiva, it is doubtful the courts will find him liable because he had no control over the yeshiva’s employees. As far as Agudah is concerned, they have staff attorneys who could fight these lawsuits. Besides the camps maybe a separate corporation from the national organization. Also the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, many of these cases are taken on contingency.
and are very expensive so if there is no chance of making money the lawyer wouldn’t take the case.
editedAugust 15, 2019 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1775623
joseph’s first paragraph is false, speculative and unsupported. Even on the chance he really believes it, he still picked his information randomly from his impressions.
At least let this machaa be in print as well.August 15, 2019 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1775627
The little I knowParticipant
I have a question for you. You state a Brooklyn Yeshiva paid a 2.1 million dollar settlement for two victims. I happen to know some details about that yeshiva and the allegations, and I have no reason to either believe their innocence, or to protect them in any way. But that notwithstanding, what was accomplished with the payout? Are the victims healed? Have their trauma effects been mitigated in any way. Did the nightmares stop? How about the anxiety or fears? Did the money solve anything for them?
There is a simple answer. They got revenge, and the moments of joy from the suffering of the yeshiva, its administration, and perhaps the well deserved bizyonos of the perpetrator. But there has not been a single instance of symptom relief to the victims, not from putting them in jail, not rendering them jobless and unemployable, not from money payouts. I am not defending or protecting the molesters. I am directly challenging the notion that revenge has any clinical benefit to the victim. The molesters can rot somewhere away from society, and this protects the public. I support that. But the obsession with lawsuits is both bloodthirsty and greedy. I know today’s world buys that. But I am a rebel here, and believe this is unfair. No, I don’t look to punish molesters. Just protect society. If that means decades in prison, send them. But money solves none of the relevant problems. And such settlements and awards might well punish the wrong people.August 15, 2019 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1775656
The little I know, the yeshiva was sued for employing a known molester ( I’m not saying I know that for a fact to be true, I’m just stating the facts of the case). If it is indeed true that there were numerous allegations against this individual, the yeshiva should have not let him work there. They deserve the punishment they got.
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