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it as become fairly common for families to travel during the third week of January which in many places is yeshiva break. The behavior of some folks is deplorable, whether it kids poorly supervised running around in an airport or restaurant or people making restaurant reservations and being a no show. I would impress upon everyone that they are ambassadors not just for the frum but for all Jews and they behavior impacts us all.
Good Yeshivos don’t have January breaks.
Speaking of chillul hashem week.
Perhaps your not following local news but a much much larger chillul hashem happened and is still happening this week.
For the AI to come out publicly and anounce
that abortion is ok ,even through the ninth month and kissing up to all the metoonafim politicians is alot bigger chillul hashem?
For what? For what? For $$$$$$$ we cross all halacha and haskafa.
Is it any wonder why 1000’s of frum kids are leaving the fold?T2-2T – If what you’re saying is true, then you can’t support such an org.
“that abortion is ok ,even through the ninth month ”
It does make me sqemish too, but what can we do we are mevatel ourselves to the Torah and the Torah allows it (in certain cases) even in the 9th month see Ohelos 7:6
“For the AI to come out publicly and anounce”
How are AI? Agudah? did they make an announcement?
Which frum person said abortion is OK?
Ubiquitin, saying that the Torah allows abortion in the ninth month is like saying that the Torah allows killing an adult. It is technically true in some cases, but it is misleading to put it that way.
Rebyid
Except that it isnt, although many do make that mistake.
People do not wake up and ask themselves what should I do after my latte before work? Oh I know get an abortion.
The comparison to eating treif, or most other aveiros just doesnt work.
It is more comparable to signing a DNR. I think it would be wrong to say “the Torah opposes signing a DNR” although it does in the overwhelming majority of cases. However, healthy people, who the Torah would oppose signing a DNR generally dont ask whether they should sign one. so although if all Jews were to ask “may I sign a DNR” probably less than 1% would be told yes. Nonetheless among those who DO ask, namely those approaching the end of ife, it is more nuanced, and while not always allowed by any means , it is allowed often enough that saying “The Torah doesnt allow DNRs” is wrong and overly simplistic, although for most people (by far) the Torah would oppose them.Abortion is more comparable to DNR than to “killing an adult” (in this sense).
how many people do you know who asked their Rav for a heter to an abortion? How many of those were granted?It’s also muttar to kill an adult in certain circumstances. i.e. self-defense. Would you therefore find it wrong to make a blanket statement that it is assur to kill an adult?
Joseph
Asked and answered
How many people do you know who have asked “I have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adult”The DNR comparison works well.
Do you think the following statement is correct: “the Torah opposed DNRs”?
Ubiq; Do you think the following statement is correct: âthe Torah opposes eating non-kosher food and/or being mechalel Shabbos?
What would happen if someone got a heter to have a 9th month abortion, before and after this law was passed?
The law always protected a mother’s life who was endangered, even in the 9th month. The NY law extends to “undesirable”
The law always protected a motherâs life who was endangered, even in the 9th month.
Is that the only basis for a halachic heter? Aren’t there other considerations too?
Meno like? You’re bringing it up.
1
“The law always protected a motherâs life who was endangered”who do you want to be the one to decide what is considered “endangered” ?
Uncle BEN
“Do you think the following statement is correct: âthe Torah opposes eating non-kosher food and/or being mechalel Shabbos?”
Yes correct.
Seriously why is everyone asking the same question?
There are 365 Lavin in the Torah do we really have to go through all of them?On the other hand, can you answer my question:
Do you think the following statement is correct: âthe Torah opposes DNRsâ?For the record “What would happen if someone got a heter to have a 9th month abortion, before and after this law was passed?” I don’t know of anyone who got such a heter, and its hard for me to imagine such a situation. They are very very rare, and the whole thing is really political. Frankly if it where up to me I would not allow such late abortions. however I am mevatel my daas to the Torah though, and if a woman were to get such a heter thats between her and her Rav not the State. One of the hardest halachos for me to wrap my head around is the halacha that we do not wait for a pregnant woman to give birth if she is chayiv misah. ?I just cant understand it
who do you want to be the one to decide what is considered âendangeredâ ?
Who do you want to be the one to decide whether killing someone is justified as self-defense? Your Rov? State law?
Thanks
B’H we all the have the Zechus of Josephs torah learning to protect us whle the oilam is comming tremendous averiahs in Florida
Jospeh
Asked and answered
“How many people do you know who have asked âI have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adultâ”I didint really mean for this to turn into a whole discussion (not that I mind, and It was predictable)
My real question though was
“âFor the AI to come out publicly and anounceâWho are AI? Agudah? did they make an announcement?
Takes2, what are you referring to ?
Ubiq: You missed my point. You wanted to know whether we should want state law to decide whether an abortion is justified based on the mother’s health (if abortion is against the law in other circumstances.) I compared your question to whether you want state law to decide whether killing someone is justified in self-defense? Suppose Halacha says yes (i.e someone broke into your home), must state law agree according to you?
joseph
“You missed my point.”I didint, but you ignored mine.
One step at a timeI asked you “How many people do you know who have asked âI have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adult”
I also asked “Do you think the following statement is correct: âthe Torah opposes DNRsâ?”
Mengele killed undesirables. Remember that.
I think that regarding personal matters (i.e. matters that don’t involve another person who may not follow the Torah) it would be preferable for secular law to be less restrictive than Torah law.
I think that regarding personal matters (i.e. matters that donât involve another person who may not follow the Torah) it would be preferable for secular law to be less restrictive than Torah law.
Where does abortion fit in? Is the fetus another person?
ubiq: What’s the difference whether they would or would not ask a shaila beforehand. Jewish Law is that abortion is generally prohibited; exceptions are, for example, when the mother’s life is in danger based on various criteria. Jewish Law is that killing is generally prohibited; exceptions are self-defense. For example, if someone breaks into your home you can kill him on the spot (with some exceptions, such as if it’s your parent.)
Presumably you believe state law in the US should prohibit killing people. Even though the exceptions for self-defense might not reflect all halachic exceptions. In NY you cannot kill someone who breaks into your home. Do you therefore advocate that New York stop outlawing killing people?
Otherwise why would you oppose New York law generally outlawing abortion just as it outlaws killing. The state law exceptions for when you may kill someone and the state law exceptions for when you may abort a baby will not reflect halacha. That doesn’t mean you should oppose state law outlawing killing or outlawing abotions, generally.
Where does abortion fit in? Is the fetus another person?
The fetus follows the Torah.
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Ok maybe a better way to phrase it would be “the fetus doesn’t go against the Torah.”
Read what I wrote and think about it.
Im just trying to figure out how a week of Prizus in the promised land of Florida turned into a discussion of Abortion
ZD, Who said anything about pritzus? I think you’re referring to a different thread.
ZD: One leads to the other.
Joseph
I’m familiar with Jewish Law, and am more than happy to answer any and all questions that you may have .(regardless of how little sense they make) . but we do have to go in order, and if we do most of your questions will fall awayI asked you âHow many people do you know who have asked âI have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adultâ
I also asked âDo you think the following statement is correct: âthe Torah opposes DNRsâ?â
Im just trying to figure out how a week of Prizus in the promised land of Florida turned into a discussion of Abortion
The OP mentioned chillul Hashem. Takes2-2tango talked about some alleged chillul Hashem, with a totally unsubstantiated claim about Agudah supporting abortion. Probably motzi shem ra altogether, but there’s your connection.
ZD, Who said anything about pritzus?
The OP talked about mid winter vacation. Many people go to Florida for mid winter vacation. There’s a lot of pritzus in Florida.
The OP talked about mid winter vacation. Many people go to Florida for mid winter vacation. Thereâs a lot of pritzus in Florida.
That’s quite a stretch
Thatâs quite a stretch
Not any bigger than the one Takes2-2tango made.
How about you go and take your abortion discussion and open another thread? T22t, did you seriously have to hijack a thread about one topic and turn it into another? Where’s your derech eretz?
If aguda wouldnt hi jack us i would totally agree with u
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