Chillul Hashem Week – AKA Yeshiva Break

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  • #1668087

    laughing
    Participant

    it as become fairly common for families to travel during the third week of January which in many places is yeshiva break. The behavior of some folks is deplorable, whether it kids poorly supervised running around in an airport or restaurant or people making restaurant reservations and being a no show. I would impress upon everyone that they are ambassadors not just for the frum but for all Jews and they behavior impacts us all.

    #1668114

    Joseph
    Participant

    Good Yeshivos don’t have January breaks.

    #1668117

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Speaking of chillul hashem week.
    Perhaps your not following local news but a much much larger chillul hashem happened and is still happening this week.
    For the AI to come out publicly and anounce
    that abortion is ok ,even through the ninth month and kissing up to all the metoonafim politicians is alot bigger chillul hashem?
    For what? For what? For $$$$$$$ we cross all halacha and haskafa.
    Is it any wonder why 1000’s of frum kids are leaving the fold?

    #1668137

    Health
    Participant

    T2-2T – If what you’re saying is true, then you can’t support such an org.

    #1668138

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “that abortion is ok ,even through the ninth month ”

    It does make me sqemish too, but what can we do we are mevatel ourselves to the Torah and the Torah allows it (in certain cases) even in the 9th month see Ohelos 7:6

    “For the AI to come out publicly and anounce”

    How are AI? Agudah? did they make an announcement?

    #1668132

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Which frum person said abortion is OK?

    #1668189

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, saying that the Torah allows abortion in the ninth month is like saying that the Torah allows killing an adult. It is technically true in some cases, but it is misleading to put it that way.

    #1668217

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Rebyid

    Except that it isnt, although many do make that mistake.
    People do not wake up and ask themselves what should I do after my latte before work? Oh I know get an abortion.
    The comparison to eating treif, or most other aveiros just doesnt work.
    It is more comparable to signing a DNR. I think it would be wrong to say “the Torah opposes signing a DNR” although it does in the overwhelming majority of cases. However, healthy people, who the Torah would oppose signing a DNR generally dont ask whether they should sign one. so although if all Jews were to ask “may I sign a DNR” probably less than 1% would be told yes. Nonetheless among those who DO ask, namely those approaching the end of ife, it is more nuanced, and while not always allowed by any means , it is allowed often enough that saying “The Torah doesnt allow DNRs” is wrong and overly simplistic, although for most people (by far) the Torah would oppose them.

    Abortion is more comparable to DNR than to “killing an adult” (in this sense).
    how many people do you know who asked their Rav for a heter to an abortion? How many of those were granted?

    #1668231

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s also muttar to kill an adult in certain circumstances. i.e. self-defense. Would you therefore find it wrong to make a blanket statement that it is assur to kill an adult?

    #1668234

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    Asked and answered
    How many people do you know who have asked “I have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adult”

    The DNR comparison works well.

    Do you think the following statement is correct: “the Torah opposed DNRs”?

    #1668239

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Ubiq; Do you think the following statement is correct: “the Torah opposes eating non-kosher food and/or being mechalel Shabbos?

    #1668244

    Meno
    Participant

    What would happen if someone got a heter to have a 9th month abortion, before and after this law was passed?

    #1668250

    1
    Participant

    The law always protected a mother’s life who was endangered, even in the 9th month. The NY law extends to “undesirable”

    #1668254

    Meno
    Participant

    The law always protected a mother’s life who was endangered, even in the 9th month.

    Is that the only basis for a halachic heter? Aren’t there other considerations too?

    #1668258

    1
    Participant

    Meno like? You’re bringing it up.

    #1668275

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    1
    “The law always protected a mother’s life who was endangered”

    who do you want to be the one to decide what is considered “endangered” ?

    #1668259

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Uncle BEN

    “Do you think the following statement is correct: “the Torah opposes eating non-kosher food and/or being mechalel Shabbos?”

    Yes correct.
    Seriously why is everyone asking the same question?
    There are 365 Lavin in the Torah do we really have to go through all of them?

    On the other hand, can you answer my question:
    Do you think the following statement is correct: “the Torah opposes DNRs”?

    For the record “What would happen if someone got a heter to have a 9th month abortion, before and after this law was passed?” I don’t know of anyone who got such a heter, and its hard for me to imagine such a situation. They are very very rare, and the whole thing is really political. Frankly if it where up to me I would not allow such late abortions. however I am mevatel my daas to the Torah though, and if a woman were to get such a heter thats between her and her Rav not the State. One of the hardest halachos for me to wrap my head around is the halacha that we do not wait for a pregnant woman to give birth if she is chayiv misah. ?I just cant understand it

    #1668283

    Joseph
    Participant

    who do you want to be the one to decide what is considered “endangered” ?

    Who do you want to be the one to decide whether killing someone is justified as self-defense? Your Rov? State law?

    #1668284

    Joseph
    Participant

    Thanks

    #1668285

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    B’H we all the have the Zechus of Josephs torah learning to protect us whle the oilam is comming tremendous averiahs in Florida

    #1668290

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Jospeh
    Asked and answered
    “How many people do you know who have asked “I have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adult””

    #1668293

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I didint really mean for this to turn into a whole discussion (not that I mind, and It was predictable)

    My real question though was
    ““For the AI to come out publicly and anounce”

    Who are AI? Agudah? did they make an announcement?

    Takes2, what are you referring to ?

    #1668304

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ubiq: You missed my point. You wanted to know whether we should want state law to decide whether an abortion is justified based on the mother’s health (if abortion is against the law in other circumstances.) I compared your question to whether you want state law to decide whether killing someone is justified in self-defense? Suppose Halacha says yes (i.e someone broke into your home), must state law agree according to you?

    #1668311

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    joseph
    “You missed my point.”

    I didint, but you ignored mine.
    One step at a time

    I asked you “How many people do you know who have asked “I have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adult”

    I also asked “Do you think the following statement is correct: “the Torah opposes DNRs”?”

    #1668324

    1
    Participant

    Mengele killed undesirables. Remember that.

    #1668328

    Meno
    Participant

    I think that regarding personal matters (i.e. matters that don’t involve another person who may not follow the Torah) it would be preferable for secular law to be less restrictive than Torah law.

    #1668331

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think that regarding personal matters (i.e. matters that don’t involve another person who may not follow the Torah) it would be preferable for secular law to be less restrictive than Torah law.

    Where does abortion fit in? Is the fetus another person?

    #1668339

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: What’s the difference whether they would or would not ask a shaila beforehand. Jewish Law is that abortion is generally prohibited; exceptions are, for example, when the mother’s life is in danger based on various criteria. Jewish Law is that killing is generally prohibited; exceptions are self-defense. For example, if someone breaks into your home you can kill him on the spot (with some exceptions, such as if it’s your parent.)

    Presumably you believe state law in the US should prohibit killing people. Even though the exceptions for self-defense might not reflect all halachic exceptions. In NY you cannot kill someone who breaks into your home. Do you therefore advocate that New York stop outlawing killing people?

    Otherwise why would you oppose New York law generally outlawing abortion just as it outlaws killing. The state law exceptions for when you may kill someone and the state law exceptions for when you may abort a baby will not reflect halacha. That doesn’t mean you should oppose state law outlawing killing or outlawing abotions, generally.

    #1668347

    Meno
    Participant

    Where does abortion fit in? Is the fetus another person?

    The fetus follows the Torah.

    #1668349

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    🤔

    #1668352

    Meno
    Participant

    Ok maybe a better way to phrase it would be “the fetus doesn’t go against the Torah.”

    Read what I wrote and think about it.

    #1668363

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Im just trying to figure out how a week of Prizus in the promised land of Florida turned into a discussion of Abortion

    #1668367

    Meno
    Participant

    ZD, Who said anything about pritzus? I think you’re referring to a different thread.

    #1668369

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: One leads to the other.

    #1668371

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    I’m familiar with Jewish Law, and am more than happy to answer any and all questions that you may have .(regardless of how little sense they make) . but we do have to go in order, and if we do most of your questions will fall away

    I asked you “How many people do you know who have asked “I have a self defense sheila, may I kill an adult”

    I also asked “Do you think the following statement is correct: “the Torah opposes DNRs”?”

    #1668385

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Im just trying to figure out how a week of Prizus in the promised land of Florida turned into a discussion of Abortion

    The OP mentioned chillul Hashem. Takes2-2tango talked about some alleged chillul Hashem, with a totally unsubstantiated claim about Agudah supporting abortion. Probably motzi shem ra altogether, but there’s your connection.

    ZD, Who said anything about pritzus?

    The OP talked about mid winter vacation. Many people go to Florida for mid winter vacation. There’s a lot of pritzus in Florida.

    #1668395

    Meno
    Participant

    The OP talked about mid winter vacation. Many people go to Florida for mid winter vacation. There’s a lot of pritzus in Florida.

    That’s quite a stretch

    #1668403

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s quite a stretch

    Not any bigger than the one Takes2-2tango made.

    #1668433

    takahmamash
    Participant

    How about you go and take your abortion discussion and open another thread? T22t, did you seriously have to hijack a thread about one topic and turn it into another? Where’s your derech eretz?

    #1668470

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    If aguda wouldnt hi jack us i would totally agree with u

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