March 20, 2022 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #2070774
Very often, when I find myself davening for the amud, I will often place the bookmark at the beginning of the next tefillah when davening is over.
When I do this at Shabbos Mincha, it is forbidden because of hachana? Am I being mechalel Shabbos?
The WolfMarch 20, 2022 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #2070830
What about placing it before zemiros for shalosh seudas?March 20, 2022 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #2070856
What about placing it before zemiros for shalosh seudas?
This is the siddur that sits at the amud all the time. No one uses it for z’miros.
The WolfMarch 20, 2022 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2070895BenephraimParticipant
Is the siddur itself muktzah after its final use?March 20, 2022 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #2070865ujmParticipant
How about placing the bookmark in the Chumash at the next Parsha.March 20, 2022 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #2070917
They don’t use it but they could use it as it is not fixed to the amud.March 20, 2022 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #2070929
Placing it for maariv would seem to be hachanah, like removing dishes from a table without time to use it again before shabbos ends. This is a very miniscule action, and i can hear it not being called a maysoh melacha at all. The bookmark is probably attached to the siddur too, which means you’re moving one part of an entire cheftzah.
Good shailohMarch 20, 2022 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #2070930
Ujm, it’s different because the next parshah is read during the week and by minchah, so you don’t see something that’s only for chol, משא”כ by the siddur, it’s being placed to a chol tefilah.
Benephraim; muktzeh is not being discussed here. This is a question of preparation for weekday.March 20, 2022 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #2070948TS BaumParticipant
If it’s considered mukzteh, then cleaning your shabbos table after the seudah on shabbos day or closing the cap of the bottle of water is also muktzeh, because you will not use it again until after shabbos (going on a case that he will not drink from that bottle until after shabbos, which is pretty common)March 20, 2022 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2070970
Is the siddur itself muktzah after its final use?
Doubtful, since someone could use it if they wanted to.
Placing it for maariv would seem to be hachanah,
So, by doing so, for years, I have been mechalel Shabbos every time I davened for the amud on Shabbos mincha.
The WolfMarch 21, 2022 6:33 am at 6:33 am #2070977
Imagine a man who wears a special beketishe lekovod shabbos every week. He maintains it meticulously, and looks forward to honoring shabbos with it every Friday night. One day, his son tells him “ta, did you ever get that beketishe checked for shaatnez? It says wool on the label”.
To his horror, this hero of kovod shabbos somehow forgot to check. He had been wearing shaatnez for perhaps decades. His refilos, though he was shogeg, were not niskabel. He cries and mourns. But he moves on. He recognizes his place in the world and the awesomeness of Hashem, and that he can do teshuva no natter what. Hashem will forgive him even if he intentionally wore it, and certainly if it was accidental.
Realizations are difficult. It takes fortitude and the ability to stand humbly before the ribono shel olam and accept that we aren’t perfect – we make mistakes, whether due to inattention, miseducation, just not “chopping” or other issues. We try our best and know that Hashem knows our fallibility and weaknesses. He is yodeah yitzram, ki heim basar ve’dam.
To not be able to accept the imperfections in ourselves leads to sholom bayis disasters… often husbands reject culpability due to their unwillingness to accept that they were wrong, even though they know it deep down. People lose their businesses over not being mevater. Teachers lose students when they refuse to accept that they’ve erred. And ovdei Hashem like yourself, who shudder at the thought that they’ve been mistaken for decades can lose the chashivus of their avodah if they insist on being right – the choice is yours.
I am leaning towards thinking that it’s mutar in any case, but the emotions behind your thankfully honest reply are not befitting someone who cares deeply about shabbos and Hashem.March 21, 2022 6:34 am at 6:34 am #2070978
TS – you and benephraim are conflating hachanah with muktzeh.
Muktzeh: area of halacha that deals with –
A) moving items that have no shabbos use, are expensive and liable to be damaged, or are routinely used for forbidden purposes. (Moving an item that has a use for weekday and shabbos and is not used for a forbidden activity, such as a shabbos/yom tov/ weekday siddur, poses no issue, nor does a weekday siddur, because it is not used for a forbidden activity, it is not expensive/liable to be broken, and ot has a purpose – it can be read and studied). The reasons for this prohibition are subject to a machlokes rishonim. Rambam holds it is so that the way we move items should be different on shabbos, the same way our dress, speech, and walking are different, i. shabbosdik.
B) items that were not available/ready to be used at the onset of yomtov are called muktzeh. This is a machlokes tannaim and we pasken like rebbe yehudah hanasi, that there is such a concept on yom tov but not on shabbos. According to rabbah it is deoraysoh. A person is “maktzeh” , puts these items aside in his mind from useage on yom tov.
It could be you are confusing the two issues because rabbah calls his muktzeh “hachanah”, since whatever one uses on yom tov must be “muchan”, prepared and ready to be used at the onset kf bein hashmashos.
That has nothing to do with the prohibition of preparing food, items, or making plans on shabbos for weekday useage/activity.March 21, 2022 11:05 am at 11:05 am #2070999
I applied הואיל as we can you use it for shabbos for zemirus for shalosh suedas so there is no hachana learned by Rabeh himself.March 21, 2022 11:05 am at 11:05 am #2071012
Avira, they are not conflating the two as Rabbah who holds muktzah also hoids hoil by hachana, so as long as it is possible to use it on shabbos, it is not assur and even though we don’t pasken muktza is biblical, we do say hoil.March 21, 2022 11:05 am at 11:05 am #2071031
“So, by doing so, for years, I have been mechalel Shabbos every time I davened for the amud on Shabbos mincha.”
Did you read the rest of AviraDeArah’s post?
Even if it turns out to be 100% hachanah and assur, or worse, the bookmark sent wireless signals to a remote controlled robot programmed to start every car in the parking lot, chop and gather wood, and sort all your kids’ lego by color when placed in contact with the first page of the weekday maariv, I think you’ve received a blessing with your realization. We are supposed to keep growing and improving ourselves, and you have an opportunity to do just that with a very small but meaningful act.
There’s a well known story of a chossid who had a precious set of tefillin written by a renowned sofer, who was makpid to get them checked frequently. When he was elderly, a routine check revealed something that meant the tefillin were always possul, like a misspelled word or something. His family expected him to be crushed – he was so proud of and careful with the mitzvah of tefillin, and now it’s become clear that he’s never fulfilled it properly in his entire life! Instead, he started dancing. He told his family that, no, he was not out of his mind. But rather, for some reason, it had been ordained that he not get the merit of fulfilling the mitzvah of tefillin, but Hashem had now given him the opportunity to do so before he left this world.March 21, 2022 11:56 am at 11:56 am #2071244
Reb E – that muktzeh is the latter category; it has to do with the preparedness of items at the onset of yom tov. Figs and raisins that were left on a rooftop to dry before yom tov are muktzeh on yom tov even when they dry, because they were inedible (not “muchan”), because he js “maktzeh”(puts aside) daato mehem, he puts them out of his mind.
These issues are discussed throughout mesechta baya, in many mishnayos – the machlokes BH and BS regarding ruffling chickens to mark which one will be used for yomtov, etc..
Ho’il is used regarding that form of muktzeh, not the gezeros of tiltiul/moving items that have no function on shabbos/yomtov. Where do you find in poskim that ho’il is used regarding that type of muktzeh? Baya happens to be my “favorite” mesechta if you will…. I would feel funny if there were something glaring like that that i missed, but if there is I’d like to know.March 21, 2022 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2071253
I also learned learned Beyah and in effect it was my first mesachta and my Bar Mitzva pashetel was on tevilas kelim. When it comes to psak we pasken both like Rabbah and Rav Nachman that Yom Tov by muktza is more stringent. In Pesachim 46 Rabbah’s view is hoil when by hachana, preparing from Yom Tov to Shabbos even for a week day there is no malkus and cooking from Yom Tov to Shabbos is mutar biblically but requiring Eruv tavshilin to remove the rabbinical prohibition. Hoil makes a small need for mitoch. So if one can eat the food on the Yom Tov or have a guest, one can cook for the next day Yom Tov. Similarly, if one can use the siddur for shabbos and no hachana exists.March 21, 2022 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #2071265☕️coffee addictParticipant
“His family expected him to be crushed – he was so proud of and careful with the mitzvah of tefillin, and now it’s become clear that he’s never fulfilled it properly in his entire life! Instead, he started dancing. He told his family that, no, he was not out of his mind. But rather, for some reason, it had been ordained that he not get the merit of fulfilling the mitzvah of tefillin, but Hashem had now given him the opportunity to do so before he left this world.“
And after he died his family checked the tefillin again and found a different passul
I’m joking, but in essence Hashem looks into our kavanahMarch 21, 2022 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #2071270
Reb E, hachanah from shabbos to yom tov and vice versa is regarding the pasuk of vehechinu, that one must have all the necessary foods one will use on yom tov available to him at the onset of YT, and not that it should be nolad(not in existence at bein hashmashos), or in a state of unavailability (grogros utzmukim).
Those issues have no bearing on, for instance, making beds a few minutes before shabbos ends, speaking out plans for melacha to be done after shabbos, etc… that’s a derabonon issue of dabeir davar. The siddur shailoh has nothing to do with hoil and “hachanah derabbah” as the poskim refer to it.
We pasken there is no muktzeh at all on shabbos (baya 2b). Yet there is the other type of muktzeh (tiltul).March 21, 2022 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #2071274
I don’t agree as hachana has to do whether it can be used on shabbos and hoil provides the means. Tiltul has do with the current use and hoil does not apply as letzorech gifa, a hammer to break nuts. Making the bed is not necessary for shabbos. I think the siddur shaila is mutar if it can be used for shabbos, it is not hachana.March 21, 2022 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2071280
Reb E, by your logic, one should be allowed to clear a table since it can be used theoretically for shabbos, clean dishes, and make beds, because all of those things are items that are used on shabbos – just like a siddur.March 21, 2022 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2071279
After researching it more, I think the problem is that hoil only works badeavad, once done but not laketchila by doing it directly, otherwise why make an eiruv tavshilin, see SA O’CH 503? So one cannot perform an action directly like preparing the siddur for tomorrow, a week day even if it can be used today. The question is that if hoil can makes a tzorach ketzas, a small need, mitoch is doing a malacha directly?March 21, 2022 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2071293
Maybe, the two hoils are not the same as whether the guest come or not is out of our control, not beyoda whereas to use a siddur is within our control. Also, to admonish and give malkus must be a sure thing but as the guest will come or not is a hasroas safek so no malkus is given.March 21, 2022 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #2071331
coffee > And after he died his family checked the tefillin again and found a different passul
this for sure happened! As kids “learn” to be “better” than their parents, then most of parents’ mitzvos will be found to be pasul, as it is said above:
> his son tells him “ta, did you ever get that beketishe checked for shaatnez?
so, the chosid cared about bekesha, but neglected teaching his kid derech eretz (or sent him to teachers who think this is how you correct parents!)
A chachan, or even a tam, son should have said – Ta, how do you check bekeshas? Or, I learned today that bekeshas need to be checked.March 22, 2022 10:40 am at 10:40 am #2071522
“I’m joking, but in essence Hashem looks into our kavanah”
“As kids “learn” to be “better” than their parents, then most of parents’ mitzvos will be found to be pasul”
It would be the height of nachas for my children to exceed my levels of avodas Hashem, and like I huff and puff after them while they play now, I daven to have the strength to huff and puff after them in spiritual growth then.
“A chachan, or even a tam, son should have said – Ta, how do you check bekeshas? Or, I learned today that bekeshas need to be checked.”
So the other day I left a stove burner on, and the kitchen caught fire. My child came to me and said, “Ta, I learned in cheider how important it is to make sure nothing is left next to the stove.” I said, “that’s a nice safety lesson, kol hakavod!” He paused, then said, “Ta, can you show me how to turn a burner off on the stove?” I said, “sorry my dear, I’m working right now and I don’t think you’re ready to do things on the stove.” He paused again, and then said, “Ta, can you show me how to use the fire extinguisher?” I said, “why do you ask?” And then we both collapsed from smoke inhalation. Just kidding like coffee addict, thank G-d. But I don’t think Avira’s wording was necessarily rude given the situation in his hypothetical.March 22, 2022 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2071687
speaking respectfully with your parent is as basic halakha as keeping shabbos. I am sure if I write “Last shabbos, when parking near my home” … I will be a best censored or, if not, condemned. Same should be true about how one addresses a parent. Especially, when a teacher says that.
Your kid should have just switched it off first, of course.March 23, 2022 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #2071910lowerourtuition11210Participant
do you start Maariv when it is still Shabbos? if you haven’t made havdalah it is still shabbos for you so it s not hachana.March 23, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2071989
That’s a really good point! You can daven maariv from plag hamincha, while it’s still shabbos, so preparing for maariv isn’t necessarily hachana for a chol activityMarch 24, 2022 10:24 am at 10:24 am #2072079
You can be machshich al hatechum, wait before night at the techum before shabbos and it is not a hachana because it is done for a mitzva similarly for maariv as lacketchila maariv should be davened motzei shabbos at night as indicated in SA O’CH 293,1.March 24, 2022 10:25 am at 10:25 am #2072081
Are you still reading this thread?March 24, 2022 11:11 am at 11:11 am #2072114
“speaking respectfully with your parent is as basic halakha as keeping shabbos.”
What is considered respectful and what is not is highly subjective and depends on the parent and child in question. I did not find AviraDeArah’s wording to be disrespectful. Some may find “ta” rather than “totty” to be disrespectful, but Avira’s father may not. It seems that you’re more interested in the fun of trying to hit Avira from the right, so I’ll join the fun. How could you give an example of a child referring to his father in the 2nd person as an example of respectful speech? There are children in some Jewish families who wouldn’t dream of such chutzpah! You should have written, “Totty, how is shatnez checked in a bekesha?”
“Your kid should have just switched it off first, of course.”
You’d want your kid to walk into a kitchen that is ON FIRE to turn off the stove? I’d want my kid out of the house as quickly as possible.
Here’s the thing: Avira and I both brought stories in an attempt to show that nobody is perfect, mistakes happen even with the best intentions, and the right thing to do is to correct the mistake and keep moving forward and not let yourself become derailed – while also saying that it’s possible that no mistake was made at all. I’m not sure why that message bothers you, but by Avira’s story you went off on a tangent about how kids these days become frummer than their parents and disrespect their mitzvah observance. Perhaps that’s a worthy topic to be discussed separately, but how is it relevant here? And furthermore, Avira’s story was talking about wearing straight up shatnez, not a chumra such as gebrochts that might cause a child to stop eating at his parents house. So the tangent was not only irrelevant, but inappropriate to the example.
As for my house-on-fire story, my point is that there are times for polite obfuscation, but there are also times that true respect calls for a shorter and more direct statement. If I’m about to accidentally put a piece of bacon in my mouth thinking it was kosher corned beef, I hope my kids stop me directly rather than blathering about how they learned in school that bacon was unkosher, or how to tell bacon from corned beef while I’m eating it. Their misguided “respect” would have caused me to unintentionally sin!March 25, 2022 12:15 am at 12:15 am #2072307
Avram > What is considered respectful and what is not is highly subjective and depends on the parent and child in question.
A good point. Still, when bringing an abstract kid, he should follow basic halochos. I don’t want to throw quotations at you, I suggest you yourself look up halochos of talking to a parent and tell us how this matches. As a personal anecdote, once when my Father O’H brought up (yet another) “peshat” of a pasuk, I prepared to argue against (and it was fine, as you are saying), but then saw a supporting Rishon and told my father “approvingly” – XX says so also! And got an unexpected retort instead of praise: why are you bringing XX when your Father tells you? [and this is, of course, the halakha – you don’t praise the words of your parent not to create impression that you are worthy evaluating them]March 25, 2022 12:15 am at 12:15 am #2072308
> there are also times that true respect calls for a shorter and more direct statement
this is fine theory. In practice, most cases call for more respect. But as usual, somehow the first instinct in bein adam l’havero is to find an excuse why not. Not healthy. If you train yourself to always talk properly, then you will struggle to shout about fire at your parent. This is akin to Igeret Ramban: train yourself to speak quietly at normal moments, and then you come control yourself in a moment of anger.March 25, 2022 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #2072396
“I don’t want to throw quotations at you, I suggest you yourself look up halochos of talking to a parent and tell us how this matches.”
By all means, bring ’em!
“But as usual, somehow the first instinct in bein adam l’havero is to find an excuse why not. Not healthy.”
So explain to me how you can frequently assume the worst about people and then lecture them about bein adam l’chaveiro?March 25, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2072427
maybe start with SA YD 240:
nor refute his words nor contradict his words in his presence, even to say ‘Father’s words appear to be,’ nor call him by his name, neither in life nor in death, but rather say ‘Father, my teacher.’
RamaH – not even support Father’s position [possibly, without proof, or better to argue with someone who argues with the Father]
סותר. בין שחולק עליו בין שאומר להחולק עליו נראין דבריך הוי סותר את דבריו ונראה דסותר את דבריו אסור אפי’ שלא בפניו עכ”ל הש”ך:
Be’er Sheva (Sanhedrin 110a) it is permissible to disagree with a parent, but it must be done in a respectful manner. Not contradicting a parent means, one should not say, “Father, you are wrong.” Rather, one must always speak to a parent in a respectful manner.
Prisha (YD 240:3) it is only forbidden to contradict a parent if one does not have proof. You should not argue with your father just because you feel that he is wrong. But if there is definite proof that a mistake was made in religious matters, then one is obligated to point this out
Chayei Adam (67:8)
Aruch HaShulchan (Yoreh Dei’ah 240:13)
P’sakim U’T’shuvos (240:7) cites the ruling of the Chazon Ish and the Sheivet HaLevi that a child can argue with a parent as long as the child raises his objection as a “suggestion” or “possible thought” and not as an outright objection or disagreement. Likewise, the Aruch HaShulchan (ibid) writes that if a parent asks a child for his opinion, the child may disagree with the parent, even to the parent’s face and even a complete disagreement.March 25, 2022 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #2072430
> how you can frequently assume the worst about people and then lecture them about bein adam l’chaveiro?
I apologize if I offended you or someone else. We are here what we write, without having background of each other, and we write casually. Misunderstandings could happen and should just be corrected in the response.March 25, 2022 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #2072438
The way I learned it is that you don’t say to your rebbi, rebbi you are wrong but show a proof of reference of an opposite view similarly to a father.March 26, 2022 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #2072560
RebE, it seems that there is more license to argue in Torah learning. But your approach is good: focus on the other side of the argument. One of the references above say that even when you want to support your father, it is better to say that you disagree with the other side.
I saw an interesting difference in hilchos pesach: one doesn’t recline at his teacher’s table, but does at his father’s, as you can presume that the father will permit. I understand this that for the teacher getting respect is a high value, for the father the growth of the son is of higher valueMarch 28, 2022 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2073353
It says in the Hagaddah that Rebbi Akiva reclined in front of his rebbi, Rebbi Eliezer, so how can he recline? Rebbi Eliezer was strict with Rebbi Akiva so he would not give him permission. Therefore it says that it was in Bnei Brak where Rebbi Akiva was the Rav and the talmid can recline in front of his rebbi where he is the Rav.March 28, 2022 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2073358
Thank you for sharing those sources. They seem to fall into two distinct categories:
1. It is forbidden to call one’s parents by their names.
2. How to handle disagreeing with your parents
AviraDeArah’s hypothetical child certainly didn’t violate #1. Did he violate anything in #2? He didn’t disagree with any position held by his father, nor did he affirm his father’s words. In fact, the hypothetical father stated no opinions whatsoever, nor did the child. He simply asked a question: did you ever get that garment checked? It says wool on the label. The source you brought that has the closest relevance to AviraDeArah’s example was the Prisha: “But if there is definite proof that a mistake was made in religious matters, then one is obligated to point this out.” Not getting a wool garment checked for shatnez is a mistake in halacha which led to a clear and definite violation of halacha in AviraDeArah’s hypothetical. Perhaps you can say the son was not sure, but the son did not disagree or level an accusation against the father, or “correct him” as you wrote – he asked a question! Did you get this garment checked?
You leveled some serious charges against AviraDeArah due to his example which by even your own sources doesn’t appear to violate any clear issur in kibud av, and then implied that I look for excuses to get out of observing mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro when I defended AviraDeArah from what I thought was unwarranted and harsh criticism. I think it’s possible you’re reading way more into the example than was actually there.March 28, 2022 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2073359
“I apologize if I offended you or someone else.”
I confess that I was bothered initially by what you wrote, and that may well be my own problem. But just in case I am mochel you, and I hope nothing I have written has caused you pain or offense. I know we’ve disagreed sharply at times, and I try hard to focus on what we’ve written and not say anything personal, but I may not always succeed.March 28, 2022 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #2073442
Avram, defending the kid saying
> ta, did you ever get that beketishe checked for shaatnez? It says wool on the label”.
I reacted based on a general impression without doing analysis and may be being a little machmir here.
When we look at halochos of parents and teachers, there are often two lines of reasoning – one for parents who are not teachers and they are below teachers [who are teaching for free?] (providing material help, while teachers – Torah), and another for parents who are teachers (or even simply paying for teachers). The latter are above. In current reality, most shomer shabbos parents are in the higher categories – they most likely know some Torah to teach and when they know less, they pay more :).
So, in this case, I think I applied the idea that one does not question a teacher when seeing doing a seeming aveira, but then again he is asking b’deieved here. I’ll try to look more or ask someone about this, thanks for pointing out.March 30, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2074135RebYid613Participant
Ask your LOR!March 30, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2074150
do you start Maariv when it is still Shabbos? if you haven’t made havdalah it is still shabbos for you so it s not hachana.
Well, yes and no.
Technically, Shabbos is over at the proper time. True, you cannot do melacha until you actually do a verbal havdala, but Shabbos is over at the time it’s over. If I did a melacha after the z’man, I would be violating a rabbinic principle against doing melacha before havdala, but I would not be violating the biblical commandment against doing melacha on Shabbos (and would certainly not be deserving of the death penalty).
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