Chillul Shabbos?

How about placing the bookmark in the Chumash at the next Parsha.

Placing it for maariv would seem to be hachanah, like removing dishes from a table without time to use it again before shabbos ends. This is a very miniscule action, and i can hear it not being called a maysoh melacha at all. The bookmark is probably attached to the siddur too, which means you’re moving one part of an entire cheftzah.

Good shailoh

If it’s considered mukzteh, then cleaning your shabbos table after the seudah on shabbos day or closing the cap of the bottle of water is also muktzeh, because you will not use it again until after shabbos (going on a case that he will not drink from that bottle until after shabbos, which is pretty common)

Imagine a man who wears a special beketishe lekovod shabbos every week. He maintains it meticulously, and looks forward to honoring shabbos with it every Friday night. One day, his son tells him “ta, did you ever get that beketishe checked for shaatnez? It says wool on the label”.

To his horror, this hero of kovod shabbos somehow forgot to check. He had been wearing shaatnez for perhaps decades. His refilos, though he was shogeg, were not niskabel. He cries and mourns. But he moves on. He recognizes his place in the world and the awesomeness of Hashem, and that he can do teshuva no natter what. Hashem will forgive him even if he intentionally wore it, and certainly if it was accidental.

Realizations are difficult. It takes fortitude and the ability to stand humbly before the ribono shel olam and accept that we aren’t perfect – we make mistakes, whether due to inattention, miseducation, just not “chopping” or other issues. We try our best and know that Hashem knows our fallibility and weaknesses. He is yodeah yitzram, ki heim basar ve’dam.

To not be able to accept the imperfections in ourselves leads to sholom bayis disasters… often husbands reject culpability due to their unwillingness to accept that they were wrong, even though they know it deep down. People lose their businesses over not being mevater. Teachers lose students when they refuse to accept that they’ve erred. And ovdei Hashem like yourself, who shudder at the thought that they’ve been mistaken for decades can lose the chashivus of their avodah if they insist on being right – the choice is yours.

I am leaning towards thinking that it’s mutar in any case, but the emotions behind your thankfully honest reply are not befitting someone who cares deeply about shabbos and Hashem.

I applied הואיל as we can you use it for shabbos for zemirus for shalosh suedas so there is no hachana learned by Rabeh himself.

WolfishMusings,

“So, by doing so, for years, I have been mechalel Shabbos every time I davened for the amud on Shabbos mincha.”

Did you read the rest of AviraDeArah’s post?

Even if it turns out to be 100% hachanah and assur, or worse, the bookmark sent wireless signals to a remote controlled robot programmed to start every car in the parking lot, chop and gather wood, and sort all your kids’ lego by color when placed in contact with the first page of the weekday maariv, I think you’ve received a blessing with your realization. We are supposed to keep growing and improving ourselves, and you have an opportunity to do just that with a very small but meaningful act.

There’s a well known story of a chossid who had a precious set of tefillin written by a renowned sofer, who was makpid to get them checked frequently. When he was elderly, a routine check revealed something that meant the tefillin were always possul, like a misspelled word or something. His family expected him to be crushed – he was so proud of and careful with the mitzvah of tefillin, and now it’s become clear that he’s never fulfilled it properly in his entire life! Instead, he started dancing. He told his family that, no, he was not out of his mind. But rather, for some reason, it had been ordained that he not get the merit of fulfilling the mitzvah of tefillin, but Hashem had now given him the opportunity to do so before he left this world.

I also learned learned Beyah and in effect it was my first mesachta and my Bar Mitzva pashetel was on tevilas kelim. When it comes to psak we pasken both like Rabbah and Rav Nachman that Yom Tov by muktza is more stringent. In Pesachim 46 Rabbah’s view is hoil when by hachana, preparing from Yom Tov to Shabbos even for a week day there is no malkus and cooking from Yom Tov to Shabbos is mutar biblically but requiring Eruv tavshilin to remove the rabbinical prohibition. Hoil makes a small need for mitoch. So if one can eat the food on the Yom Tov or have a guest, one can cook for the next day Yom Tov. Similarly, if one can use the siddur for shabbos and no hachana exists.

Reb E, hachanah from shabbos to yom tov and vice versa is regarding the pasuk of vehechinu, that one must have all the necessary foods one will use on yom tov available to him at the onset of YT, and not that it should be nolad(not in existence at bein hashmashos), or in a state of unavailability (grogros utzmukim).

Those issues have no bearing on, for instance, making beds a few minutes before shabbos ends, speaking out plans for melacha to be done after shabbos, etc… that’s a derabonon issue of dabeir davar. The siddur shailoh has nothing to do with hoil and “hachanah derabbah” as the poskim refer to it.

We pasken there is no muktzeh at all on shabbos (baya 2b). Yet there is the other type of muktzeh (tiltul).

Reb E, by your logic, one should be allowed to clear a table since it can be used theoretically for shabbos, clean dishes, and make beds, because all of those things are items that are used on shabbos – just like a siddur.

Maybe, the two hoils are not the same as whether the guest come or not is out of our control, not beyoda whereas to use a siddur is within our control. Also, to admonish and give malkus must be a sure thing but as the guest will come or not is a hasroas safek so no malkus is given.

coffee addict,

“I’m joking, but in essence Hashem looks into our kavanah”

Maskim.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“As kids “learn” to be “better” than their parents, then most of parents’ mitzvos will be found to be pasul”

It would be the height of nachas for my children to exceed my levels of avodas Hashem, and like I huff and puff after them while they play now, I daven to have the strength to huff and puff after them in spiritual growth then.

“A chachan, or even a tam, son should have said – Ta, how do you check bekeshas? Or, I learned today that bekeshas need to be checked.”

So the other day I left a stove burner on, and the kitchen caught fire. My child came to me and said, “Ta, I learned in cheider how important it is to make sure nothing is left next to the stove.” I said, “that’s a nice safety lesson, kol hakavod!” He paused, then said, “Ta, can you show me how to turn a burner off on the stove?” I said, “sorry my dear, I’m working right now and I don’t think you’re ready to do things on the stove.” He paused again, and then said, “Ta, can you show me how to use the fire extinguisher?” I said, “why do you ask?” And then we both collapsed from smoke inhalation. Just kidding like coffee addict, thank G-d. But I don’t think Avira’s wording was necessarily rude given the situation in his hypothetical.

do you start Maariv when it is still Shabbos? if you haven’t made havdalah it is still shabbos for you so it s not hachana.

You can be machshich al hatechum, wait before night at the techum before shabbos and it is not a hachana because it is done for a mitzva similarly for maariv as lacketchila maariv should be davened motzei shabbos at night as indicated in SA O’CH 293,1.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“speaking respectfully with your parent is as basic halakha as keeping shabbos.”

What is considered respectful and what is not is highly subjective and depends on the parent and child in question. I did not find AviraDeArah’s wording to be disrespectful. Some may find “ta” rather than “totty” to be disrespectful, but Avira’s father may not. It seems that you’re more interested in the fun of trying to hit Avira from the right, so I’ll join the fun. How could you give an example of a child referring to his father in the 2nd person as an example of respectful speech? There are children in some Jewish families who wouldn’t dream of such chutzpah! You should have written, “Totty, how is shatnez checked in a bekesha?”

“Your kid should have just switched it off first, of course.”

You’d want your kid to walk into a kitchen that is ON FIRE to turn off the stove? I’d want my kid out of the house as quickly as possible.

Here’s the thing: Avira and I both brought stories in an attempt to show that nobody is perfect, mistakes happen even with the best intentions, and the right thing to do is to correct the mistake and keep moving forward and not let yourself become derailed – while also saying that it’s possible that no mistake was made at all. I’m not sure why that message bothers you, but by Avira’s story you went off on a tangent about how kids these days become frummer than their parents and disrespect their mitzvah observance. Perhaps that’s a worthy topic to be discussed separately, but how is it relevant here? And furthermore, Avira’s story was talking about wearing straight up shatnez, not a chumra such as gebrochts that might cause a child to stop eating at his parents house. So the tangent was not only irrelevant, but inappropriate to the example.

As for my house-on-fire story, my point is that there are times for polite obfuscation, but there are also times that true respect calls for a shorter and more direct statement. If I’m about to accidentally put a piece of bacon in my mouth thinking it was kosher corned beef, I hope my kids stop me directly rather than blathering about how they learned in school that bacon was unkosher, or how to tell bacon from corned beef while I’m eating it. Their misguided “respect” would have caused me to unintentionally sin!

> there are also times that true respect calls for a shorter and more direct statement

this is fine theory. In practice, most cases call for more respect. But as usual, somehow the first instinct in bein adam l’havero is to find an excuse why not. Not healthy. If you train yourself to always talk properly, then you will struggle to shout about fire at your parent. This is akin to Igeret Ramban: train yourself to speak quietly at normal moments, and then you come control yourself in a moment of anger.

maybe start with SA YD 240:
nor refute his words nor contradict his words in his presence, even to say ‘Father’s words appear to be,’ nor call him by his name, neither in life nor in death, but rather say ‘Father, my teacher.’

RamaH – not even support Father’s position [possibly, without proof, or better to argue with someone who argues with the Father]

Beer Hatev
סותר. בין שחולק עליו בין שאומר להחולק עליו נראין דבריך הוי סותר את דבריו ונראה דסותר את דבריו אסור אפי’ שלא בפניו עכ”ל הש”ך:

Be’er Sheva (Sanhedrin 110a) it is permissible to disagree with a parent, but it must be done in a respectful manner. Not contradicting a parent means, one should not say, “Father, you are wrong.” Rather, one must always speak to a parent in a respectful manner.

Prisha (YD 240:3) it is only forbidden to contradict a parent if one does not have proof. You should not argue with your father just because you feel that he is wrong. But if there is definite proof that a mistake was made in religious matters, then one is obligated to point this out

Chayei Adam (67:8)
Aruch HaShulchan (Yoreh Dei’ah 240:13)

P’sakim U’T’shuvos (240:7) cites the ruling of the Chazon Ish and the Sheivet HaLevi that a child can argue with a parent as long as the child raises his objection as a “suggestion” or “possible thought” and not as an outright objection or disagreement. Likewise, the Aruch HaShulchan (ibid) writes that if a parent asks a child for his opinion, the child may disagree with the parent, even to the parent’s face and even a complete disagreement.

The way I learned it is that you don’t say to your rebbi, rebbi you are wrong but show a proof of reference of an opposite view similarly to a father.

It says in the Hagaddah that Rebbi Akiva reclined in front of his rebbi, Rebbi Eliezer, so how can he recline? Rebbi Eliezer was strict with Rebbi Akiva so he would not give him permission. Therefore it says that it was in Bnei Brak where Rebbi Akiva was the Rav and the talmid can recline in front of his rebbi where he is the Rav.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I apologize if I offended you or someone else.”

I confess that I was bothered initially by what you wrote, and that may well be my own problem. But just in case I am mochel you, and I hope nothing I have written has caused you pain or offense. I know we’ve disagreed sharply at times, and I try hard to focus on what we’ve written and not say anything personal, but I may not always succeed.

Ask your LOR!