Chilul Hashem

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  • This topic contains 41 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Eli Y 6 months ago.
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  • #1236467

    Thinking
    Member

    The gemara in Yoma daf pey vav amud beis says if you know someone is a rasha and he pretends to be a tzaddik (i guess in public) there is a mitzva to publicize the fact that he is b’emes a rasha so that there wont be a chilul hashem.P’shat is so that when (lo aleynu) bad stuff occur to him people will not say that it is not worth it to be a tzaddik.

    Could somene please be m’vaer to me what are the perameters of when someone could be considered a rasha in regards to this halacha.

    #1496112

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the Rambam Hilchas Daes 6:9 that there is a mitzva to admonish him בין אדם למקום and if he does not change, you can ashame him in public.

    #1496224

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Doesn’t seem like this mitzvah is done very often.

    #1496364

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Sounds dangerous to try to figure this out on one’s own.

    First, you have to determine if he really is a rasha, and I don’t think your average yid-in-the-street is competent to do this. You would have to ask a posek, and he would probably ask for proof, not just something like “I heard that…..”

    Second, you would have to ask a sheilah about lashon hara. This is a pretty heavy kind of issue, and again you need your local posek.

    Third, you would have to be clear that you are really only doing this l’shem shomayim, and that there aren’t any personal issues involved, or that you’re doing it eacause it’s giving you hana’ah to denounce somebody else’s wrongdoing.

    It all sounds pretty perilous to me. If you can’t get this person to make teshuvah by speaking privately with him, consult your posek. Under no circumstances try to act as judge, jury and journalist and talk in public about it without getting a reliable halachic psak.

    #1496604

    laskern
    Participant

    We find by the aron it says, מבית ומחוץ תצפנו, the aron was gold from inside and outside. The sign that he is a rasha is because he behaves differently outside towards people than when he is alone with family. So we have to publicize what we know so he should not influence others. This is different than a tinuk shenishba where he behaves the same way inside and outside.

    #1496577

    Joseph
    Participant

    JJ: “Doesn’t seem like this mitzvah is done very often.”

    So let’s start doing it more often!

    #1496937

    laskern
    Participant

    When you do the mitzva be careful not to ashame him. It says
    אל תוכיח לץ פן ישנאך הוכיח חכם ויאהבך says the Shlah Hakadesh that when you admonish him, don’t say he is a letz because he will come to hate you and not accept the admonishment, but if you say he is a chacham he will come to love you and accept it.

    #1497189

    Midwest2
    Participant

    laskern – there are a lot of very serious problems here. Nobody should publicize anything negative about anybody before consulting a posek. There are too many opportunities for mistakes, misinterpretations and real issues of nogeia b’davar.

    Don’t put yourself at risk. Ask a sheilah from someone who has smicha and expertise in loshon hara.

    #1497200

    Eli Y
    Participant

    There’s a family in my shul–the father has no kevanah while davening–speaks during the shemonah esrei–leaves his seat to stand in front of the aron–he paces around disturbing me while I’m davening–when he arrives at shul he treats it like a coffee house—has his feet up on another chair during services–his oldest son is like Cain. All this and the Rabbi’s say nothing. I have trouble focusing if my tallis isn’t blocking my peripheral vision. He enrages me–I’m instructed by my primary Rabbi that since he will never change to ignore him. Maybe he is not qualified as a Rasha but calling him out would do no good.

    #1497230

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So let’s start doing it more often!

    I’ve been trying, but every time I do so, you shout me down and (in effect) call me a liar.

    The Wolf

    #1497231

    laskern
    Participant

    Thank you, Midwest2. I appreciate your plea and will take it into consideration.

    #1497239

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Joseph- the people who could call out the fake tzadikim are the real ones because they have credibility. If the simple folk do it they will just be seen as otd and speaking lashon hora. Also many of those who’s words would be effective got to their position through making friends not starting machlokes.

    #1497238

    JJ2020
    Participant

    EliY – the point here is calling out the people who look like tzadikim on the outside but aren’t. It sounds like this fellow is only not. Maybe he has ADHD.

    #1497266

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Joseph- the people who could call out the fake tzadikim are the real ones because they have credibility. ”

    JJ2020: This Mitzvah is a Mitzvah for everyone to do, not just a mitzvah only for tzadikim to do. Nowhere in the Mitzvah does it say that only tzadikim should do this mitzvah.

    And make no mistake about it, doing this is a Mitzvah. The Chofetz Chaim tells us all about the severity of Loshon Hora, he also tells us — all of us, not just tzadikim, have this mitzvah. At the end of Shmiras HaLashon (Hilchos Rechilus 9:15), the Chofetz Chaim writes that the prohibitions against Lashon Hara and Rechilus do not apply to reshaim and kofrim and that it is, in fact, a mitzvah to mock such persons:

    “מצוה לפרסם דעתם הכוזבת לעיני הכל ולגנותם, כדי שלא ילמדו ממעשיהם הרעים.”

    “It is a mitzvah to make their false opinions public before all, and shame them so that others do not learn from their evil deeds.”

    That’s the Halacha for you, for everyone here including me, for everyone in your shul and for tzadikim equally.

    #1497452

    Midwest2
    Participant

    But who decides who is a rasha or a kofer? That’s the ikar of the issue.

    We are all familiar with the Yetzer Hara’s tricks, especially describing nogeia b’davar as l’shem Shomayim.

    One of the possible penalties for lashon hara is losing your Olam Habah. Why take the risk? Ask a posek, or at least your rav, before you start publicizing anything.

    #1497459

    Joseph
    Participant

    Chazal, the Rambam and the Chofetz Chaim all had confidence in the everyday Yid to make these determinations to be mekayim this Mitzvah. None of them limited performance of this Mitzvah only to the rabbinic or gedolic class.

    And the Chofetz Chaim is our master on the issue of Loshon Hora. If he told us to do this Mitzvah then he certainly knew we can and should do it. In fact he cited this Mitzvah in his very sefer Shmiras HaLashon at Hilchos Rechilus 9:15.

    #1497485

    Phil
    Participant

    “Chazal, the Rambam and the Chofetz Chaim all had confidence in the everyday Yid to make these determinations to be mekayim this Mitzvah.

    OK everyone, please make sure that as soon as you get to Shul this Shabbos, you publicly embarrass anyone you consider to be a rasha or kofer! Don’t waste the Rav’s time by first asking him, just go right ahead and start berating!

    This is what HKB”H wants from us and will hasten our redemption, right Joseph?

    #1497505

    Joseph
    Participant

    Who said anything about not asking the Rov first? My Rov and many other rabbonim have identified many reshaim and kofrim. There is no lack of them, unfortunately, in today’s world.

    #1497510

    laskern
    Participant

    The Rambam only applies on בין אדם למקום but not בין אדם לחבירו because I think he is a נוגע בדבר.

    #1497515

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There is no lack of them, unfortunately, in today’s world.

    And yet, you can’t see them when they’re right in front of your face.

    The Wolf

    #1497528

    Joseph
    Participant

    “This is what HKB”H wants from us and will hasten our redemption, right Joseph?”

    Absolutely. Doing the Mitzvah, as outlined in Chazal, the Rambam, the Chofetz Chaim and elsewhere, as well as following the tangentially related mitzvah outlined in the Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that says you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way, but if they don’t listen to you then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah, most certainly WILL hasten the coming of Moshiach.

    Just as following any other Mitzvah.

    #1497581

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    There a countless examples of the Chafetz Chaim lovingly and tearfully guiding people to act properly. Please cite a single example of the Chafetz Chaim publicly berating and embarrassing anyone to convince them to do what is right. No Rav in his right mind would tell anyone to act in such a manner nowadays. Yet, you are insisting that any Jew can make the determination as to who is a rasha or kofer and act this way.

    Seriously, dude, what is wrong with you?

    #1497605

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are people alive today that lived while the Chofetz Chaim was alive. The Chofetz Chaim wasn’t from ancient times, he was here with us not that long ago. And he told us and taught us exactly as he is quoted above.

    Do you think this Mitzvah was the Halacha from the times of Chazal through the Chofetz Chaim but suddenly changed in the last few decades and is no longer a Mitzvah?!

    Instead of coming up with your own boich sevaras, do what the Chofetz Chaim told us to do in sefer Shmiras HaLashon, Hilchos Rechilus 9:15. And what the Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 tells us to do. And what Chazal in the gemara in Yoma daf Pey Vav amud Beis tells us to do. And what the Rambam Hilchas Daes 6:9 tells us to do. And all the other Chazals, Rishonim and Achronim that tell us the same thing.

    #1497623

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    So basically joseph has no problem if someone embarress him here in the public coffee room because they consider him a kofer and a rasha/ shaygitz. After all why ask a rav when i can use my own discretion.

    #1497626

    Joseph
    Participant

    Takes: Like Phil, you clearly missed the point in Post # 1497505 above.

    Most certainly do ask a Posek. I have.

    #1497637

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Again, the Chafetz Chaim never behaved with the cruelty you are trying to encourage in others. Which posek told you to embarrass and berate another Jew publicly?

    #1497639

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, we get it. You don’t like the Halacha. You don’t like what the Chofetz Chaim says to do. You don’t like what Chazal say. You don’t like what the Rambam psakens. The Sefer HaChinuch is not your cup of tea. But everything I’ve written above are simply halachic quotes directly from the Chofetz Chaim, the Rambam, Chazal and the Sefer HaChinuch. I’ve added no commentary of my own and made no statements here other than to quote the Halacha.

    #1497645

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    No Joseph, you don’t get it. And it is disgusting to twist his words around and pretend he said something he didn’t. Just as it is disgusting when you, and a handful of others on this site misuse that Halacha as an excuse to trash people. It isn’t the Halacha being questioned. As Phil asks, when did you ever hear a story of the chofetz chaim berating or mistreating anyone in the fashion you are using. Or Reb Aryeh Levin, or tens of other authentic gedolim who knew the Halacha and people better than you ever will. Do you consider yourself more proficient in the mastery of Halacha than the Chofetz Chaim himself? How dare you accuse someone of not liking the Rambam when they complain about YOUR ‘derech’ of implementing it?
    Some of you seem to use this Halacha in the same way the getting drunk on purim Halacha is used. You’ve selected this to be the one that you perfect and fulfill to the outmost.

    #1497691

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    I think there are a number of stories where the Chafetz Chaim spoke out and ridiculed specific individuals. One that sticks in my mind is at one of the Kneisa Gedola’s the Chafetz Chaim was making jokes at the expense of a certain public individual called Adam ________ (? – don’t recall the last name offhand. Anyone with the specifics?) and the crowd around him started murmuring “Here the Chafetz Chaim himself is telling Lashon Hara!?” He heard the murmurs and said over the above gemara to explain that not only was this permitted, it was his obligation.
    Lgufo shel inyan, the wording of that gemra is that we publicize chanafim – those who put on a holy front, while wicked within, because of chillul Hashem. Regular reshaim are well known, and will not bring about a chillul Hashem if we leave them alone.

    #1497694

    Joseph
    Participant

    Thank you Lebedik Yankel.

    Syag, in addition to what Lebedik Yankel pointed out in answer to your and Phil’s kvetch, I didn’t offer any advice or opinions on beratings or derechs on implementing it. I simply provided a direct verbatim quote from the Chofetz Chaim in Shmiras HaLashon, Hilchos Rechilus 9:15. And from the Sefer HaChinuch in perek 239. And the gemara in Yoma daf Pey Vav amud Beis. And the Rambam in Hilchas Daes 6:9. Direct verbatim quotes and maare mekomos. Nothing more, nothing less. It is you and Phil who gets all angry that anyone dares even say these Mitzvos and Halachas. You find all kinds of scary things to throw into your comments, but it is in response to only merely citing the Mitzvah you don’t like.

    After all, it is the 21st century these days. And the Chofetz Chaim was from the 20th century, wasn’t he. Things have changed nowadays from how we practiced Torah Judaism from Har Sinai through the times of Chofetz Chaim some do argue. They’ll tell you some old Mitzvos simply don’t apply or work in the space and information age.

    #1497710

    Avi K
    Participant

    In fact, when somebody spoke against Rav Kook at the first Aguda convention the CC got up and walked out. However, deciding on one’s own that someone is a rasha can be dangerous to one’s spiritual health. Not to mention that the other guy might decide that he a rasha for saying LR. In fact, I heard about a case where someone berated a shaliach tzibbor for some minor error. The Shatz then turned and said in a loud voice “Who gave you the right to embarrass me in public?”

    #1497712

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ” It is you and Phil who gets all angry that anyone dares even say these Mitzvos and Halachas. You find all kinds of scary things to throw into your comments, but it is in response to only merely citing the Mitzvah you don’t like.”

    You are a sick man joseph. Comparing your version of carrying out that halacha to anytjing the rambam said or the chofetz chaim did is pure delusion on your part. Delusions of granduer common among certain groups. But accusing me of an open orthodox ideology is motzei shem ra of the lowest and worst kind. Perhaps you have studied other laws of lashon hora besides your favorite one and understand the gravity of ylur disgusting behavior.

    #1497747

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I take no issue with the halacha but question it’s application nowadays. No contemporary posek will permit someone to berate and embarrass another Jew publicly. Yet, nothing seems to make you more animated than the thought of such behavior and even physical violence against other Jews.

    You can’t even name the posek whom you claim told you to act this way. It’s just more of your spouting fake halacha.

    #1497804

    Joseph
    Participant

    You see, Syag, you’re once again parroting about my version of the Halacha when I absolutely did not offer *any* “version”. I simply quoted, verbatim, the actual text of the Halacha “as is” it is written in the Seforim HaKedoshim. And that’s what you don’t like. It isn’t a “version” of the Halacha that you and Phil don’t like; it is the Halacha itself that you object to but are embarrassed to say so in so many words. So instead you rant about a “version”.

    To “question it’s application nowadays” of this or any Mitzvah, Phil, is exactly what the Conservatives/Masorti do every day with every Mitzvah they don’t like since it doesn’t fit into a Western 21st Century world they idolize.

    The Posek was Rav Elyashiv. Does he meet your standards? I ask because even the Chofetz Chaim failed to meet your standards, so much so that you “question it’s application nowadays” something the Chofetz Chaim paskened in Shmiras HaLashon, Hilchos Rechilus, a relatively very very short time ago.

    Syag, about your comment that I “selected this to be the one that you perfect and fulfill to the outmost”, if I did that would be a good thing. No less than if I (or anyone) selected the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim to be the one mitzvah I perfect and fulfill to the utmost and make extra special efforts to fulfill moreso even than some other Mitzvos. The Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim and the Mitzvah we’re discussing here that the Chofetz Chaim, Rambam, Sefer HaChinuch, Chazal and so many others write and tell us how to fulfill are both equally Mitzvos. And it is certainly a worthwhile Mitzvah to make a special effort to fulfill this above discussed Mitzvah and anyone doing so is very praiseworthy. But as it so happens I, in fact, (perhaps unfortunately) haven’t chosen to make a special effort to focus on this particular mitzvah. In fact, I do focus on Bikur Cholim with a special effort and am visiting and helping the sick in hospitals and nursing homes with an effort above some other Mitzvos.

    Syag, you once again, as you’ve done frequently before with not only me but with DaasYochid and many other posters here, grossly mischaracterized and twisted what I said into the fashion of how your crooked mind thinks. I simply quoted the abominable statement of Phil that, r”l, he “question it’s application nowadays” the same way the Reform/Masorti habitually do. This is nothing new for that rasha who has a history here of attacking the foundations of Torah Law that he thinks is outdated for the 21st Century in a Western democracy.

    Yes, he clearly and effectively questioned whether this Mitzvah and Halacha is applicable nowadays in his 21st Century era. Just as both of you repeatedly here tried to sugar-coat your virulent dislike of this Mitzvah by saying it was said over incorrectly, when the fact of the matter as any even semi-literate reader here can see that the Halacha was merely related verbatim from the Seforim HaKedoshim without any additional provisions thrown in to the comment.

    Just in case anyone missed it, the comment above by Lebedik Yankel is a *must-read*.

    #1497811

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Joseph, your inability to discern reality from self perceptions of reality is heartbreaking. To continue to spew motzei shem ra is beyond the pale. The only reason I can even tolerate it is knowing you have no credibility for truth here.
    Even the way you twist this comment that he has NO problem with the Halacha but wonders if we are qualified to carry it out and you switch it to mean that he said it doesn’t apply as a Halacha. You are manipulative and dangerous. I have said for years that your posts should be deleted, you do more damage to the spirituality of people reading these boards than any modern day revisionist because you hide behind the cloak of chareidi-ism and a persona of being learned.

    Shame on you.

    #1497827

    Phil
    Participant

    “The Posek was Rav Elyashiv”

    Joseph,

    I don’t believe that you personally asked Rav Elyashiv, zt”l a question about this matter, to which he actually told you to berate and embarrass another Jew publicly. If this is what you are claiming then I am flat out calling you a liar.

    Moreover, your constant twisting of halacha into a weapon to hurt and divide Jews has made you into a rasha. All of the behaviors that you advocate against other Jews you will only bring upon yourself.

    #1497899

    Eli Y
    Participant

    “your constant twisting of halacha into a weapon to hurt and divide Jews has made you into a rasha.”

    “You are manipulative and dangerous.”
    “You are a sick man joseph.”
    “Seriously, dude, what is wrong with you?”

    Do you haters of Joseph not realize the irony of your behavior on this topic? You have chosen to deem Joseph as evil as you are arguing that he has no right to deem others this way (which maybe he doesn’t). How is it ok for you?

    #1497947

    golfer
    Participant

    The CR is a contentious place
    Where you may get insulted to your face
    We debate Minhagim and Halachos
    From mesora we find in our own mishpachos
    Eli Y tries to stop the blaming
    To get us past insults and shaming
    Is his name a pseudonym
    For one whose name is changed at every whim?
    Or is he trying to end our churban
    So we can finally eat the Pesach Korban?

    #1497949

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Haters of joseph? Cute. You must be new here.
    Your post answers your own question, not sure how you could miss it.
    If i call avi weiss a rasha amd he says that that lashon hora makes me a rasha, is that ironic? No. Its someone who distorts halacha trying to defend his position and hopong to scoop up some sympathy from those who only tead half his sentences. Or none.

    #1497953

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Golfer you are talented! And you are kind in your mussar, you must not have learned said halacha.
    😉

    Back to my cleaning in your zchus…

    #1497957

    golfer
    Participant

    Thank you Syag, you are so kind!
    We’re not such a big family. Would be great if we could feast together this Pesach!
    I can smell the roasting lamb already…

    #1497967

    Eli Y
    Participant

    SY: “Its someone who distorts halacha trying to defend his position”

    Let’s say someone really does this–and you have publicly condemned him–right? Have you not proved his hypothesis that it is ok to attempt to correct the person even by public insult?

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