October 28, 2010 12:39 am at 12:39 am #592801WIYMember
“For I have made Paroh and his servants hearts heard in order to place my signs in their midst. And so that you may relate in the ears of your son and your son’s son etc. and you will know that I am Hashem” Why does the pasuk say, “and you will know that I am Hashem” – it should have said, “And so that you may relate in the ears of your son and your son’s son etc. and they will know that I am Hashem”?
The Belzer Rav answers; there are parents that want the best for their children. They will send them to the best Yeshivos, make sure they are learning well by having the best tutors for them, and always keeping them in the frummest surroundings…. .
However, the parents themselves want to keep their old life style. They won’t open a Sefer to learn. They won’t come on time to davening etc. They will just push their children to do so. This, says the Belzer Rav, will not work. If one wants his children to be Ehrlicher Yidden, he must be Ehrlich himself and let his children follow his lead. “In order that you may relate in the ears of your son and your son’s son” – to transmit the Torah to them… “you must know that I am Hashem” – First you yourself must recognize Hashem and then it will be transmitted to your children!
The Vizhnitzer Rebbe was once asked what is correct approach for father to deal with his little children during a long davening? The Rebbe answered that he has seen two approaches that share a common result. One father davens with great kavanah while his kid runs around like a “Vilde Chaya”. The other father spends a good portion of his davening catching up on the week’s gossip but he makes his child sit in his place and daven like a good boy. What happens to these two children when they grow up? The Rebbe answered, “They each daven exactly like their father!”
From Revach.netOctober 28, 2010 3:43 am at 3:43 am #707724
WIY, children need consistency. That means that they need good role models in both their home and in their school. AND they do spend more time in school than they do at home. In addition, in most yeshivas these days they rarely teach kibud av v’em, because they literally tell them they don’t have to listen to their parents they have to listen to THEM, they are more important. And kids see the hypocrisy that is before them, whether it is in their home, in their school, in their shul or in front of their home. It has nothing to do with the goyim and the outside influences it is the inside influences in their own daled amos that are turning them off. THEY forget that kids need to be kids. THEY forget that a kid’s job is to make mistakes, so that he can learn from them. Hashem has programmed kids that way. THEY forget that kids are a matanah from Hashem and that WE are supposed to love them unconditionally no matter what. THEY forget that each little gem Hashem gives us needs to be nurtured and polished till they sparkle and shine to their own potential not roughly cut and tumbled till they all look the same. THEY forget that children are like sponges just waiting to absorb what we teach them and show them so why didn’t they teach and show the love for Hashem and his beautiful religion? Why did THEY emphasize mitzvos lo taaseh instead of Mitzvos Aseh? Why did they not show them how to rejoice in simchas hachaim and apply what they learned in the Torah to everyday life to make it viable, alive and current for them? Why did THEY make our children feel that being frum is a burden and a responsibility instead of a privilege?
If you break one leg can you not use the other and still walk? So then if you are missing your hat can you not still daven? If you are late for minyan should you then daven b’yichidus? How come taking off a day from school to be with the family is “bitul Zman Torah” but suspending a child for 3 days for doing something stupid is NOT bitul zman Torah? What lesson is he supposed to learn from that? How come if a boy and girl start to talk to each other the girl is kicked out of school and no other school will take her literally ruining her whole life, while depending who the boy’s parents are, he gets to ride out the wave? Because a boy and girl spoke to each other, that was a good enough reason to throw them out of school and ruin their lives? That was supposed to teach other kids a lesson and keep them from doing it? Did that help or did they keep throwing more kids out? Oh by the way once they were thrown out wasn’t it easier for the kids to speak to each other anyway? So what exactly was the point of that exercise, how did THEY help the kids?
How does holding back a kid’s diploma so he can’t go to college help get the parents to pay the bill? Why not let the kid go on to have a normal life and put a lien on the house? Or let a collection agency go after them after all business is business as the other thread said. Oh that’s not what I meant to say, how does holding a kids transcripts hostage because THEY don’t want the kid to go to college help the kid? I’m drained I’m sure someone else can pick this up.October 28, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #707725minyan galMember
Aries: What an amazing, well thought out message. I was actually gasping as I read it. Sometimes after visiting YWN I wonder if my Conservative lifestyle is adequate but the more that I read here, particularly about the hypocrisy, assures me that I am very happy and fulfilled as I am. I would rather be a good, religious Conservative Jew than an irreligious more orthodox one. I just hope that there will be adequate therapists available for many of the children that are going through the yeshivot. It seems that many of the instructors have never taken any training in how to teach. Another case for certified teachers – in any subject. Many of these yeshivot continue to operate as if they were still in the shtetl. Today’s child requires more than that – they have to learn self-esteem. I know that the bulk of congregational rabbis today have not only been Torah trained, but have studied secular subjects such as psychology, etc, that enable them to better serve their congregants who seek advice. Why would we expect less from those who are molding our children?October 28, 2010 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #707726
minyan gal, it is a shame, but don’t get me wrong. I’m talking about the percentage of failures which in perspective is still small in comparison to the percentage of success stories. Not everyone is turned off, and Thank G-d, B”H it is still a small amount in comparison but too large an amount to ignore. Even if it happened to a handful of kids I would still be up in arms. But one of the many problems is that people choose to be blind to the problems and when WE advocates speak up they find excuses not to hear us. They tell US WE don’t know what WE are talking about or WE are blowing things out of proportion.
The TORAH is the same for ALL Jews. It is there for us every single day, every hour every minute. It applies to today the same way that it applied to yesterday, to last year, to a hundred years ago and so on. The rules haven’t changed and although times has changed and people have changed the Torah is tried and true. And although WE as human beings accomodate our life to our surroundings we don’t accomodate the Torah to our life, WE still need to accomodate OUR life to the Torah and its Laws and customs. That hasn’t changed and that will never change. So no matter how affluent we are, no matter how much we grow as a community or as a people, our roots stay the same and WE can’t forget it. We can’t allow our own personal ego’s to get in the way of our Torah values, and unfortunately that is what happened and that is why our children suffer today.
Our Torah leaders of a generation ago were simple Jews with great big huge hearts, minds and souls. They give of themselves in uncountable ways and they did it humbly and without expecting rewards. They shunned the spotlight and they shunned noteriety. They spoke in the same, manner and style respectfully to a rich man as to a pauper, to an adult as to a child and to wise learned soul as to a beginner. Each one is Hashem’s creation and each one was deserving in their eyes.
Today’s leaders have forgotten what THEIR teachers taught them. They have forgotten to emulate their tremendous role models and have stepped over the boundaries that their predecessors maintained. Too many to count chase after honor, they chase after wealth, they have huge egos and they are not interested in the poor little Jew. And I’m sorry to burst your bublle but that goes across the board whether they are affiliated within the Orthodox, Chasidish, Conservative or Reform groups.
So I will keep fighting for the sake of the kids and I hope you do to no matter what affiliation you belong to, because Kids Count big time in my book.October 28, 2010 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #707727twistedParticipant
MinyanGal You are a beautiful example of what I posted on the OTD thread. Children are incredibly sensitive to conflicts, and they cannot see the very beautiful forest for the very ugly few trees,AND THEY ARE NOT GIVEN THE TRAINING TO BE CRITICAL THINKERS, EMPOWERED TO SIFT THE DROSS FOR THE SILVER. And you as well are focused on the aberration.October 28, 2010 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #707728
Twisted, I don’t think that is a fair assestment. If you don’t understand where she is coming from you really can’t judge. If someone from outside the daled amos of the Orthodox community does not see or understand the many facets that we do, we need to explain it to them, not judge them for what they don’t know.October 28, 2010 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #707729ramateshkolianMember
aries: when we give our schools the support (moral, emotional, and financial) and respect that they deserve and need, we can expect them to be mechaneich our children in all facets to our high expectations (and in some cases, instead of us)…stop to think how school and chinuch is viewed in our society: a financial burden, something to complain about, gossip about, etc. NOT as the foundation of our society. Rebbeim should be paid the MOST not the least….when was the last time you thanked the principal, volunteered your time, sent the teachers a present, went to visit, etc…..October 28, 2010 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #707730twistedParticipant
aries. She mentioned that our warts validate her fullfilment. That is a an error of nearsightedness. Not necessarily the individual’s fault. Nearsightedness is hereditary, and common in Jews.October 29, 2010 2:13 am at 2:13 am #707731
ramateshkol, WE all started out respecting, honoring and supporting our yeshivas. It is when they no longer deserved our respect that we stopped!October 29, 2010 5:06 am at 5:06 am #707732sm29Participant
Wellinformed and Aries, great messages. We deffinately need to be a good example for our kids of good middos, wisdom, joy and emunah.
communication is also very important between parents and children.
In general, a Torah home should be a place where we nurture our family by showing them the Joy and wisdom of our heritage. This way, children have a strong foundation and can withstand the tests of the outside worldOctober 31, 2010 4:46 am at 4:46 am #707733
“I would rather be a good, religious Conservative Jew than an irreligious more orthodox one.”
Confused – if one is more orthodox, doesn’t that by definition make them more religious?
Seeing as these terms are getting me confused, I’ll put it like this: The more one obeys the Halacha and the Rabbonim, the more religious they are (regardless of what label they use). Wouldn’t you agree?October 31, 2010 11:28 am at 11:28 am #707734
No, just because you obey the Rabbonim that doesn’t make you more religious. Following Halacha, obeying the Torah and doing what Hashem wants you to do makes you Religious. Rabbonim disagree all the time, so how does that qualify?November 7, 2010 4:23 am at 4:23 am #707735
“No, just because you obey the Rabbonim that doesn’t make you more religious.”
What?! Did you just say that you don’t have to follow the Rabbonim to be religious?!
We are talking about Yiddishkeit here, right?November 7, 2010 5:42 am at 5:42 am #707736
Aries – I think you should try moving. With all due respect (and I do mean that) what you are saying is VERY true for some places but very untrue for others. Please speak less globally as not all of our cities/schools are as you see them.November 7, 2010 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #707737
mw13, yes. You follow the Torah. Here in my neighborhood the Rabbonim together as a vaad decided to boycott a certain supermarket because the head of the Vaad Hakashrus had an issue with the owner. Now mind you it was never a kashrus issue, they had a personality clash and the supermarket was owned by 4 siblings and he really had it out for the oldest sibling. It got so bad that it came to a head and the head of the Vaad accused him of not being a Shomer Shabbat which was neither here nor there because even though he was, the other family members and owners were as well and it was just a bunch of loshan harah. It really divided the neighborhood and the Rabbonim had to take up the position supporting the Vaad Hakashrus. It went to the point that the THEY forced the family to sell the store. One of the NEW owners of the store just happens to be a Rabbi in the community, a member of the Vaad Harabonim and a member of the Vaad Hakashrus.
How does that sit with you? To me that is a conflict of interest. And that certainly turns me off to following the Rabbonim. So I follow the Torah and one or two Rabbonim that I still trust and believe me after working in the field of Child Advocacy and fighting child molestation you learn very quickly that there are not too many Rabbonim that you can trust. Rabbonim support Rabbonim right or wrong, as we saw in the Monsey case just recently (and I am not going to mention names).November 7, 2010 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #707738
shneiu, maybe you don’t live in the mainstream or maybe you are not as involved as I have been and have not really seen the ins and outs of the yeshiva world.November 8, 2010 2:12 am at 2:12 am #707739
Believe me, I do and I have. I just know that there is a lot more to the world than your focus seems to see. I am as passionate as you about the things you speak of and am the first to string up the hypocrites by their toenails. But there are cities out there that don’t operate the way you think everyone is operating. I don’t want to get into the NY vs. not NY politics, I don’t know where you live and don’t know if that is a contributing factor, but so much of what you are talking about is not going on everywhere. We have plenty problems of our own but it isn’t fair to assume we all have the ones you experience.November 8, 2010 2:56 am at 2:56 am #707740
shneinu, so lets be clear my experience is in NY. That is where there is one of the largest Jewish populations, where there is the largest Jewish organizations, and the greatest issues.November 8, 2010 3:24 am at 3:24 am #707741
I can’t tell if your tone is informative or condescending, but my point was not to disagree with you. I just don’t feel comfortable with all these strong comments about the yeshivish world and frum schools when it may be more accurately about the NY yeshivish world and the NY frum schools. People outside those worlds read these posts and I worry about representing us all with such broad strokes. No offense intended.November 8, 2010 3:42 am at 3:42 am #707742vnishmartemmeodMember
I am at a loss how some can equate following the Torah and having a deep connection to Hashem with “following the Rabbonim”.
It’s not even like there is a consensus among the Rabbonim nowadays anyway… so if you were following one, you are surely NOT following another.
I am not mocking respect and following a personal RAV, just this whole “the Rabbonim” thing… (excluding a select few, it’s more like “The Gabbai’s Rabbi” thing…)November 8, 2010 5:44 am at 5:44 am #707743
OK, perhaps I need to clear up exactly what I meant. Obviously, one cannot be expected to follow all of the Rabbonim – after all, they often hold different things. However, one must have his or her own personal Rav who they ask shailos (both in halacha and in hashkafa) to. Basically, all I was trying to say was that one cannot simply do whatever they please and call it Judaism, they’ve got to have somebody to rely on.
aries2756: If that is your experience with Rabbonim, then no wonder you’re so bitter towards “the system”. Perhaps you should find yourself some new ones… B”H, my Rabbonim do nothing of the sort.November 9, 2010 4:30 am at 4:30 am #707744
mw, perhaps you should resist giving me suggestions as to what I should be doing.November 9, 2010 4:31 am at 4:31 am #707745
shneinuj, not at all trying to be condescending, I was just answering the question that I in fact have my experiences here in NY, that’s it.November 9, 2010 4:41 am at 4:41 am #707746
” Perhaps you should find yourself some new ones..”
????? I can’t believe you let that go through!!!!!
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