CHLv Stm pigs mlk – NothA klasic BY Popa

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  • #608174

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If I drink cholov stam milk and it is pigs milk, am I ???? only one issur of drinking pigs milk, or is there also a din of cholov yisroel on pigs milk?

    #929765

    pigs milk is treif… so your drinking something that is treif.

    #929766

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    A pig’s milk is treif?

    I’m talking about a pig that is born from a cow.

    #929767

    Which is impossible in any scenario that has nothing to do with Harry Potter… next discussion…

    #929768

    midwesterner
    Participant

    I would agree with snowbunny, but not for her reason. SHe thinks it can’t happen. I know the gemara talks about different minim coming out, and their din. Kalut bim’ei Parah, etc. But if it is a kalut, then it it doesn’t have chazir fissel, does it? So lechoira it is not possible. Now a horse born from a cow, that would be discussed in CHulin!

    #929769

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m not sure what you think the gemara has to do with Harry Potter.

    #929770

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Reminds me of Rabbi Twerski’s story in Generation to Generation about the girl who wanted proper shchita of a pig.

    #929771

    Ðash®
    Participant

    pigs milk is treif… so your drinking something that is treif.

    It’s only treif if the pig has an injury.

    #929772

    A pig has split hooves, but has a unique digestive system that allows it to chew some of its cud, and then regurgitate it a bit and chew it some more, therefore, it is not a kosher animal PERIOD.I am pretty sure that everyone here should know that by now.

    #929773

    achosid
    Participant

    popa out of control classic!

    #929774

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Coming out of lurkage for this one.

    Who says milk that comes from a pig born of a cow is tahor? Maybe the klal only works one generation but the pig itself, being a b’hemah t’meiah, produces tameh milk?

    #929775

    squeak
    Participant

    Kill the pig

    #929776

    Cholov acum is always a chashash milk from a nonkosher animal. So you have one issur just this time it is a vaday.

    #929777

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    i have a even better question.. whats the dif between feif un and itchesrulik?

    #929778

    oomis
    Participant

    Cholov acum is always a chashash milk from a nonkosher animal. So you have one issur just this time it is a vaday. “

    Not in the USA it isn’t. From everything I have ever beem taught, if it says “USDA milk” it can only come from a cow (not even from a goat,deer, or sheep). In Europe this might have been a problem, but not here in America.

    #929779

    Assuming the original question before the thread descended into nonsense – it depends. If you don’t eat chalav stam then you are oveir two issurim – since you don’t eat chalav stam, you must believe that there’s an issur to eat it outside of the issur to eat pig’s milk, since you keep it even where there is no legitimate chashash of pig’s milk. However, if you do eat chalav stam, then the only problem with it is that it might be pig’s milk – which in this case is all it was.

    Now, this might sound like I’m saying, if you eat chalav stam you eat chalav stam, but it’s actually much more lomdish.

    #929780

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    VM,

    I don’t know that there’s a whole lot of lomdus here; I think it’s as simple as saying that an issur d’rabbonon can’t be chal on an issur d’oraiso.

    If you hold c”s is assur, you become karov l’meizid; if you hold it’s muttar, it’s probably an oneis.

    #929781

    WIY
    Member

    Where’s sam when you need him?

    #929782

    daniela
    Member

    ah, but what if the pig’s milk was mixed with some cow’s milk? We might end up trasgressing basar v’chalav, no? That would be worse than pig’s milk.

    #929783

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    From my limited knowledge “ain issur chal al issur”

    which would mean that it wont make any difference if the pig is a “treifoh”

    as to weather a “treif” animal ie: pig would have a din “fleishig” would warrant further investigation

    #929784

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Basar b’chalav is only with a beheimah tehorah.

    #929785

    daniela
    Member

    That’s why it seems to me it’s an additional problem if the pig’s milk turns out to have been mixed with a cow’s (healthy cow, not a treifah).

    #929786

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m not talking about where you bought milk that was labeled cow milk and in fact was pig milk. I’m talking where you bought milk that was labeled as pig milk, but wasn’t cholov yisroel, so you don’t really know.

    #929787

    mms601
    Participant

    If the pig was born from a cow, the milk is kosher

    #929788

    daniela
    Member

    OK but if the pig’s milk is chalav akum, we have to be careful, maybe our enemies mix it with cow’s milk.

    #929789

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    Only if the pig was still inside the cow during shechita!

    #929790

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa, I was going with VM’s ukimta.

    You’re asking if we’re choshesh l’chumrah that maybe it’s cow’s milk. But then. mah nafshach, it’s only one issur.

    #929791

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Daniela, that’s a machlokes.

    #929792

    Sam2
    Participant

    It appears that my assistance was called for on this thread. Thanks WIY (unless you meant the other Sam).

    To answer the original question (before Popa’s Ukimta), you were Over on the D’rabannan of Chalav Shechalvo Akum (I’m assuming it’s not Chalav Stam in the sense that it’s from a place where Chalav Stam is Muttar; because if that is your case then you are an Anus and Patur). You are not Poshea because it is a Chashash Rachok that the Goy will actually mix in the pig’s milk. Therefore, you are a Misasek on the Yotzei Min Ha’Asur of pig’s milk. Whether or not you are Chayav for that in Dinei Shamayim is a Machlokes between the Nesivos and R’ Akiva Eiger in how to learn Misasek BiChalavim V’Arayos Chayav Shekein Neheneh. Pashtus is that you’d be Pattur for Misasek because I think most of the Poskim assume like the Nesivos’s way of learning the Sugya instead of R’ Akiva Eiger’s. (Unless, of course, you learn out that this is a Shig’gas Metzius like some Rishonim in K’risos and that this is a Shogeg, not an Ones.) Oh, and no matter what there should be some sort of T’shuvah done to try and make up for the Timtum HaLev aspects.

    To deal with the Ukimta: I’m not positive about any of this and I really don’t have time to look it up. I believe the Maskana of the Gemara in Bechoros is that a Tamei that comes out of a Tahor is Tahor, but HaYotzei Mimenah is Asur. Thus, the milk from a pig that was born from a cow is Assur. Once again, you would be Over the D’rabannan of drinking Chalav Akum. But presumably you had no reason to be at all Choshesh that this milk was mixed in (or replaced the cow’s milk) so this would probably be an actual Ones.

    And to respond to Popa’s most recent post: There is no Din of Chalav Yisrael on Treif milk. It’s just not Shayach. You drank a Yotzei Min Beheimah T’mei’ah. Period.

    Crazybrit: That’s Mefurash. Basar BeChalav only applies to a Beheimah Tehorah and Chalav Tahor.

    #929793

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Shkoayach Sam. Way to ruin a good joke 🙂

    #929794

    SaysMe
    Member

    it was ruined way back when the first person took your question seriously

    #929795

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    this is real Purim toy ra

    it would be totaly osser from the toy ra because it is a new thing no mesora and further chodosh is osser me de oye rai sah

    #929796

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Thank you, Popa Bar Abba, for making halacha so enjoyable and interesting.

    If you had been my halacha teacher in high school, or seminary for that matter, I would have developed a much better appreciation of the subject.

    I feel jealous of how much everyone else seems to know about halacha! But at least I can appreciate a little bit of how much goes into every decision from these topics.

    #929797

    WIY
    Member

    Sam2

    Thanks. I did mean you. You know your stuff lol.

    #929798

    daniela
    Member

    Sam2 – thank you.

    If someone mixes the pig’s milk with cow’s (a healthy cow), and we have this mixture 49% pig milk, 51% cow’s milk, do we, or do we not, go by the majority and say the mixture is milchig? which would be a problem if that person should eat kosher beef with that. Better eat it with pork chops. Is a mixture milchig only if it is kosher?

    If instead we shecht the cow and there’s a pig inside which remains alive, the pig is forbidden derabanan but (if he has the simanim of the pig) its milk I think would be issur d’oraita? is that correct?

    Shmoolik I do not think it is chadash, as it is discussed at length what to do if an animal without simanim is born from a kosher animal.

    #929799

    Sam2
    Participant

    Daniela: Min B’mino is Batel B’rov Min HaTorah so this should be Kosher Min HaTorah and Assur Mid’rabannan (unless you say that pig’s milk and cow’s milk are two different Minim; I guess it would depend on how they taste and how we hold like that, there are a lot of opinions around that). But even though it’s Assur to eat Mid’rabannan it would create Basar B’chalav D’Oraisa.

    #929800

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think you all misunderstood the question. I didn’t mean the milk came from the pig; I meant it belonged to the pig–pig’s milk. The question was if there is a din cholov yisroel for non-kosher animals, since even rabi chanina ben tradyon’s pigs presumably drank actual pigs milk from their mother.

    #929801

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You started by asking “If I drink…”, now you’re saying that a pig is drinking it. There is a way of making this not a stirah, and based on the fact that you block people’s driveways and break their windows, it’s not such a dochek.

    #929802

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    lol

    I think “I” was the superlative I, and was generically referring to the drinker in the shaila.

    I didn’t mean the milk came from the pig; I meant it belonged to the pig–pig’s milk.

    Also a superlative I, and referring generically to shaila askers.

    superlative I

    A certain generic poster doesn’t know what superlative means anyway, so if this post made no sense, substitute whatever word makes sense.

    generic poster

    I bet you never thought the non-superlative I would be called a generic poster.

    #929803

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The guy in the shaila definitely is a drinker.

    #929804

    ari-free
    Participant

    Nobody wants to wait for Purim…

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