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I just want some info about it.
Why would you need a kulah to drink cholov yisroel? Am I missing something?
many Poskim hold that those who keep Cholov Yisroel can nevertheless use products made from powdered milk
from R’ Heinemann star-k
There are some Torah scholars who permit the use of powdered milk which is made from regular milk since it is not in its original form when it comes into Jewish hands. Most people who are careful about Cholov Yisroel do not rely on this lenient ruling.
I thought you meant “kulah for powdered cholov stam”
I can see where the heter is, because (if I remember correctly) food coloring can be made from the blood of worms, after they are dried and crushed into powder.
Truth? The whole inyan today (IMHO) in regards to cholov stam / cholov yisroel is NOT about kashrus.
Its about following your mesorah, or choosing a path thats right for you.
So its not about a “kulah” its about doing what you feel right about.
You can’t make powered milk out of pig fat, so if it is powdered milk, you know it isn’t pig fat. Or hooves.
I just want some info about it.
In short, it’s a machlokes between the Chazon Ish, who says it’s the same as regular milk, and the Har Tzvi, who is meikil.
You can’t make powered milk out of pig fat, so if it is powdered milk, you know it isn’t pig fat. Or hooves.
True, but you can make it out of pig’s milk.
Truth? The whole inyan today (IMHO) in regards to cholov stam / cholov yisroel is NOT about kashrus.
I’m not sure why you don’t think it’s about kashrus. It’s a legitimate shaila in halacha, regarding an edible item. In the vernacular, a discussion about whether a food or beverage is permitted to be eaten is considered to be about kashrus.
As I mentioned on other threads, with modern technology, the heter of powdered milk is irrelevant. Today powdered milk can and is manufactured from horse and camel milk.
the Poskim who rule on this issue dont believe it is irrelevant. The many people who keep Cholov Yisroel and eat dairy donuts dont believe it to be irrelevant
Which Poskim and why? The people who eat Duncan Donuts are likely unaware of the intricacies involved.
youre right i am not well aware of the inticacies involved.
i eat dunkin donuts because my Rav (also a Posek) said i could.
mod-80: could you ask your Rav if he is aware that powdered milk is made today from camels’ and horses’ milk? google powdered camel/horse milk, and you will find thusands of sources.
I have not heard about horse and camel milk being powdered, but anything that says USDA GRADE A MILK on it is only from a cow, by law.
I did a little research on this. Most of this stuff comes from Mongolia (certainly not sold in the US as ordinary milk for human consumption). It is used here primarily to feed the offspring of those animals, who for one reason or another cannot feed from the mother. It is not sold in supermarkets as milk, and I am not doubtful it is even available commercially to anyone other than farmers or zookeepers.
Rav Frank Zt”l’s Teshuva (I haven’t read it yet):
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22460&st=&pgnum=109&hilite=
“could you ask your Rav if he is aware that powdered milk is made today from camels’ and horses’ milk”
The only milk products that can be legally sold in the US today are from cows, sheep, and goats. There is a serious effort to legalize the sale of products from camel milk (if you own a camel farm you can produce it yourself and some Amish do that), and there was a news article last year of a human woman who made cheese from her breast milk.
oomis: the premise to be lenient on powdered milk is that it is physically impossible to make from non-kosher sources. That is clearly no longer true!
dy: I’m not debating whether Poskim were once matir, the question is do any Poskim matir under today’s metzius?
iow, hello99 is saying that the kula for people who only eat CY (and do not eat CS) nevertheless eating non-CY powdered milk, was that the poskim said it is physically impossible to make powdered milk from non-kosher sources.
now, that metzius changed, in that it has become physically possible in more recent years to make powdered milk from non-kosher sources. so the original basis for the heter is no longer applicable, considering the new (and changed) metzius. (and to come up with a new reason for a heter for powdered milk in that they are usda labeled, you could use that same logic to be matir all CS — which some people do, but if you are machmir on CY only there is no more reason to be meikel on powdered milk.
i am just explaining hello99’s point as i understand it. if i understood anything incorrectly, please correct.
“That is clearly no longer true! “
I’m not sure it was ever true. Camel milk has similar properties to kosher milk.
hello99,
I posted that link for informational purposes; I wasn’t sure what Rav Tzvi Pesach ZT”L’s reasoning was, and didn’t have time to read it. I’ve now skimmed through it (pardon the pun).
He acknowledges the possibility of making avkas chalav from the milk of a b’heima t’meia. According to my understanding, the main crux of his argument is that powdered milk was not part of the g’zeira, like cheese (except that cheese has a different g’zeira). We don’t make our own g’zeiros, and and as long as we can reasonably assume that it’s made from a cow, it’s mutar. He gives more than one reason why we can assume that it’s from cow’s milk. One reason is that milk from a b’heima t’meia does not yield much powder so it’s not worth making it. This is clearly no longer true. However, he also writes that government supervision makes it reasonable to assume that it’s from cow’s milk, and this part does seem to hold true today.
One might argue that we should hold like the Chazon Ish who writes that there’s no distinction between regular and powdered milk. The Chelkas Binyomin does so, with a compelling reason; powdered milk is regular milk with the moisture removed. When the moisture is replaced, it’s milk again. Cheese, however, is a different product, so whereas cheese is not included in the g’zeira of Chalav Aku”m, powdered milk is.
One might additionally argue that practically speaking, one should not rely on powdered milk because of the treifa issue.
One can even argue that historically, Rav Frank only meant for his heter to be relied upon b’shas hadchak. The essential heter, however, seems intact.
oomis: the premise to be lenient on powdered milk is that it is physically impossible to make from non-kosher sources. That is clearly no longer true! “
I think that refers to cheese, not to powdered milk (although I am hearing it is no longer true about cheese, either). Why should there be any difficulty in making unkosher powdered milk from ANY source? The water in the milk is completely evaporated through a process, and what is left is the powdered residue. It is reconstituted with water when needed (i.e. to feed a baby horse or csmel).
I think that refers to cheese, not to powdered milk (although I am hearing it is no longer true about cheese, either). Why should there be any difficulty in making unkosher powdered milk from ANY source? The water in the milk is completely evaporated through a process, and what is left is the powdered residue. It is reconstituted with water when needed (i.e. to feed a baby horse or csmel).
I don’t know about making cheese from unkosher milk nowadays, but you’re right about powdered milk. The Chazon Ish says that, and even the Har Tzvi who is lenient has other reasons, as I mentioned earlier.
From the NY Times:
WITH cheeses in all shapes, sizes and aromas so easily found, a new curd can have trouble standing out. This is not likely to be a problem for Caravane.
The dairy that makes Caravane is run by Nancy Abeiderrahmane, who is also its founder. Born in England and raised mostly in Spain, Ms. Abeiderrahmane, 61, married a Mauritanian politician and eventually settled in the country in 1986.
She started the dairy, now called Tiviski, in 1989. Nomads took their camel herds to her, and soon she was collecting, pasteurizing, bottling and selling more than 500 gallons of milk a day.
At some times of the year supply outran demand, and this made her wonder if she could make the milk into something with a longer shelf life, like cheese. But unlike that of cows, goats and sheep, camel milk does not have the proteins to curdle naturally. Ms. Abeiderrahmane contacted a camel expert in France who had discovered an enzyme that aids curdling, and made him a technical consultant. Production began in 1994.
Mr. Guthrie, an importer and entrepreneur who has worked mostly with electronics, was on a hunt for camel milk in 2007 after reading about its health benefits. Camel milk is rich in nutrients like iron, and vitamins C and B, according to a 2006 report from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations.
He approached Ms. Abeiderrahmane, and by September was peddling half-pound samples of Caravane to New York retailers and restaurants. Some of those that declined to carry it initially are nevertheless keeping an eye on it.
The posts are getting away from the issue. The main question here is: can someone who generally uses Cholav Yisroel milk also enjoy a Hershey Bar, assuming that a Hershey Bar is made with powdered milk?
Daas Yochid
“However, he also writes that government supervision makes it reasonable to assume that it’s from cow’s milk, and this part does seem to hold true today.”
using that line of reasoning, you should equally be matir ALL milk, not just powdered. i dont understand why that reasoning should be more applicable to powdered than not powdered.
cherrybim
“(2) the g’zera was not made on powdered milk”
when did the g’zera ever exclude powdered??
that isnt relevant to the issue.
“the g’zera was not made on powdered milk”
Powdered milk as we know it today did not exist until the 1800s; it is impossible for Chazal to have specifically included or excluded it.
“that isnt relevant to the issue.”
Please explain.
using that line of reasoning, you should equally be matir ALL milk, not just powdered. i dont understand why that reasoning should be more applicable to powdered than not powdered.
R’ Moshe ZT”L is matir all milk based on that reasoning; Rav Tzvi Pesach ZT”L apparently disagrees, since there was a g’zeira. He maintains, though, that powdered milk was not part of the g’zeira.
The main question here is: can someone who generally uses Cholav Yisroel milk also enjoy a Hershey Bar, assuming that a Hershey Bar is made with powdered milk? I see it as YES, since (1) the same heter which makes Chalav Stam into Chalav Yisroel in the U.S.A.;
This discussion is about differentiating between regular milk and powdered milk.
(2) the g’zera was not made on powdered milk;
That’s a machlokes; the Chazon Ish says it was. See my earlier post for Chelkas Binyamin’s proof.
That’s irrelevant to the essential heter, and wouldn’t either create a “shas had’chak”. That reasoning does apply to pas palter to make it eina m’tzuya, but it doesn’t apply here.
It’s relevant if you’re concerned about being machmir per Rav Moshe, as a bal nefesh would eat only a cholov yisroel Hershey Bar if it were available and all things were equal. In this case, the bal nefesh chumra does not apply as there are no Hershey Bars made with cholav yisroel milk.
Daas Yochid
“R’ Moshe ZT”L is matir all milk based on that reasoning;”
thats perfectly fine. i dont take exception to being matir all CS. i am pointing out though, using that reasoning (like R’ Moshe) you have to be matir ALL CS; it doesnt make sense — to use THAT reason — and say only powdered is okay. iow, if you are machmir on CY only, that reasoning doesnt help you be meikel on powder. (it would only make sense if you are meikel on all of CS, if you go with that reasoning.)
“He maintains, though, that powdered milk was not part of the g’zeira.”
where does he say it wasnt part of the g’zeira? like charliehall pointed out, powdered milk didnt exist at the time of Chazal. so when Chazal made the g’zeira they never excluded powdered milk.
cherrybim
a baal nefesh will not eat any choclate bar at all, if none are available as CY. choclate bars are neither necessary for ones health nor is eating a hershey’s choclate bar ever a shas hadchak.
Wrong.
they are essential for your health? you MUST eat hershey’s choclate bars?
in any event, who even said hershey’s uses only powdered milk rather than actual milk?
where does he say it wasnt part of the g’zeira? like charliehall pointed out, powdered milk didnt exist at the time of Chazal. so when Chazal made the g’zeira they never excluded powdered milk.
Heres one quote from the ?????; it’s the whole basis of his heter.
??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???????
????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???.
In response to Charlie Hall’s point, the ?? ??? is saying that any change in form (cheese, butter) was excluded from the ???? and he considers drying into a powder a change in form.
It’s relevant if you’re concerned about being machmir per Rav Moshe, as a bal nefesh would eat only a cholov yisroel Hershey Bar if it were available and all things were equal. In this case, the bal nefesh chumra does not apply as there are no Hershey Bars made with cholav yisroel milk.
So in your opinion, not having Hershey’s is a shas had’chak?
Wrong.
Why?
read above: “assuming that a Hershey Bar is made with powdered milk?”
Learning and halacha uses the application of p’sak to positions and conditions, whether practical or not.
Another problem with the powdered milk heter is that its source is from butter, and the exemption for butter only applies if the milk was intended from the start to be used only for butter so according to some, the issur of Cholov Akum was never relevant to this milk. However, if the cow was milked for drinking or unspecified purposes, that milk is immediately forbidden and does not lose its Cholov Akum status to become Kosher when it is churned into butter.
This is true of all our powdered milk today which is milked commercially.
Another problem with the powdered milk heter is that its source is from butter, and the exemption for butter only applies if the milk was intended from the start to be used only for butter
From the ????? of the ?? ???
?????? ????? ???? (??? ???? ???? ??? ????)
??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???????
????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????. ??? ???
???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????
???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????, ?????
???’ ???? ???? (???? ??) ??????? ?????? ????? ??????
??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ????
??? ?????? ????, ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????
A lot of people rely on this heter, even though the Chazon Ish disagreed.
They are probably holding like R’ Moshe meikar hadin, and b’tziruf R’ Frank, being mattir powdered milk.
Bear in mind, though, that powdered milk doesn’t help for the treifah shailah.
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