Cholov Yisroel VS Cholov Stam

Home Coffeeroom Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Cholov Yisroel VS Cholov Stam

  • This topic contains 25 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  Bobchka 1 week ago.
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  • #1465936

    Rab Moishe Feinstien says yes to cholov stam ; )

    #1466195

    litvishechossid
    Participant

    And?

    #1466218

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe says a Baal Nefesh should not use Cholov Stam. And even a non-Baal Nefesh can only use it bshas hadchak.

    #1466229

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Chalav Yisroel spoils before the expiration date

    #1466231

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph. Should a bal nefesh be trolling and commenting on blog sites?
    Whats worse, eating cholov stam or hanging out on blog sites?
    Maybe the blog mashgiach can answer that

    #1466254

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, when R’ Moshe said b’shaas hadchak, it was in response to a unique case. In the teshuvos which he chose to include in the Igros Moshe, he never mentioned that part. He was matir it in general.

    #1466253

    adocs
    Participant

    What about a baal nefesh b’shas hadchak?

    #1466250

    laskern
    Participant

    The reason is that Reb Moshe allows cholov stam because the government watches out for mixing milk from a non-kosher animal so there is mirthas, fear involved. The question they put up is if the chachomim forbid milk from a non-jew with a count or we are doing it from custom which makes the prohibition biblical because of a neder. Certainly if someone can get cholov yisroel then he should rather get it.

    #1466248

    yudel
    Participant

    Reb Moshe says that there is no more cholov stam in the usa. Due to the vetirnaryian procedures it’s all cholov treif.

    #1466302

    mik5
    Participant

    Ask Reb Dovid Feinstein if cholov stam is muttar.

    #1466284

    Yossii
    Participant

    Rabbnon in the times of the Mishnah said you are not allowed to have milk that a goy milked without a Jew watching and there is a teshuva that was sent to a specific situation that was מתיר but since when do we change a Halacha that was practiced thousands of years based on a teshuva that was sent to a specific person in a specific situation especially when the teshuva itself says I don’t eat chalv stam nor should a ball nefesh eat chalav stam.chalav stam is not recognized as kosher even by the non jews as you can see that in any kosher aisle of a store even when it’s a completely non Jewish store with a kosher aisle there is no chalav stam

    #1466327

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Yossii: your last sentence is utter nonsense. Non-jewish store owners only know Chalov Yisroel as the “Kosher” milk, not the only milk that is kosher. They think they have to separate it. They do not know the difference between Chalov stam and Chalov Yisroel.

    #1466330

    Meno
    Participant

    mik5:

    Ask Reb Dovid Feinstein if cholov stam is muttar.

    Why can’t you just tell us what Reb Dovid Feinstein says?

    Yossii:

    since when do we change a Halacha that was practiced thousands of years based on a teshuva that was sent to a specific person in a specific situation

    Are you saying we can’t pasken halacha based on anything in Igros Moshe?

     

    #1466355

    Joseph
    Participant

    The teshuva that says bshas hadchak is in the Igros Moshe.

    #1466377

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, it’s not in the Igros that R’ Moshe released. It’s in the volume released years after his death. He didn’t select the teshuvos that were included in it.

    #1466379

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Zahavas dad get over it. When I live it doesn’t go bad before the date. And if it does so what just drink it before it goes bad. Is that supposed to be some sorry excuse not to keep cholov yisroel? Thousands of people manage it just fine. Rav Moshe himself kept it. Are you going to bash him too?

    #1466372

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Obviously, there are those who strongly hold that it is irrelevant that today, dairy farmers don’t mix milk supplies from different animals, there are rigid inspection protocols over dairy farms and producers, we have strict health and refrigeration standards, etc. All that is important to them is that a gazillion years ago, some goy might have milked a cow, adulterated the milk, yadda yadda. For them, they are fortunate that cholov yisroel is more readily available at reasonable prices and with better shelf life. For those who hold that cholov stam is sufficient for their hashkafah, than its never been a concern.

    #1466382

    lesschumras
    Participant

    To the mods: is there any valid reason to open and keep open another chalav yisroel vs stam thread?

    #1466386

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    laskernParticipant
    The reason is that Reb Moshe allows cholov stam because the government watches out for mixing milk from a non-kosher animal so there is mirthas, fear involved. The question they put up is if the chachomim forbid milk from a non-jew with a count or we are doing it from custom which makes the prohibition biblical because of a neder. Certainly if someone can get cholov yisroel then he should rather get it.
    ————————-
    Thats all on the assumption that pricing and quality are equal or close to equal
    ..but everyone knows that milk and many dairy products spoil way before its expiration date and everyone knows that they are way more costly especially cheese and cheese products and everyone knows that heimishe products are made way more inferior in quality in general.

    #1466483

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    All that is important to them is that a gazillion years ago, some goy might have milked a cow, adulterated the milk, yadda yadda.

    What’s important is that there was a gezeiras Chazal which does not become nullified unless a beis din which is greater than the one which made the gezeirah (which doesn’t exist today) nullifies it.

    For those who hold that cholov stam is sufficient for their hashkafah

    You seem to ignore the fact that it’s a halachah shailah (whether today’s milk fits the gezeirah).

    #1466515

    Bobchka
    Participant

    Joseph can you explain exactly what a bal nefesh is?

    #1466522

    yudel
    Participant

    Reb Moshe has a trshuva in the sefer that it’s a treifah. Therefore there is nothing to ask Reb Dovid Or Reb Reuvain.
    That’s right, Reb Moshe’s teshuva says that the veterinarian procedures commonly done to cows )DA’s, Bloating, etc.) make the cow a treifah, that makes the milk cholov-treif.

    #1466557

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Obviously, there are those who strongly hold that it is irrelevant that today, ”

    No there absolutely are NOT. Unless you are talking about the Reform/Conservatives.

    There is a heter to eat chalav stam. Or, if you prefer, you could say there’s a chumrah to eat chalav Yisroel (albeit this wording would be inaccurate). Either way, NOBODY says the issue is irrelevant. Keeping chalav Yisroel is halachically preferable according to all, including those who permit chalav stam.

    Your language further down is suggesting that you could drink goyishe milk in any country because in your mind the halachah was flawed from the start. I’m sorry, but your knowledge of this is clearly very poor and you should do some research before brazenly making light of something straight from the Mishnah.

    #1466558

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Reb Moshe has a trshuva in the sefer that it’s a treifah.

    Can you please cite the source? It would be interesting to see, since Rav Belsky was mattir based on the animals not being treifah.

    Therefore there is nothing to ask Reb Dovid Or Reb Reuvain.

    This is a mistake. Even if the milk from DA cows us treifah, the containers of milk you buy in the stores could be muttar because of bittul. That is the psak of R’ Chatzkel Roth, and I assume the reason R’ Dovid Feinstein is in fact mattir.

    The gedolei poskim in Eretz Yisroel were in fact machmir, so there is certainly reason to buy only CY even for one who used to be meikil, but it is false to claim that those who do buy CS don’t have on whom to rely.

    #1466562

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Joseph can you explain exactly what a bal nefesh is?”

    Someone who cares about his neshoma.

    #1466579

    Milhouse
    Participant

    There’s a lot of nonsense written about Reb Moshe’s shita, by people who’ve never cracked a sefer in their lives, and wouldn’t know how to read a teshuvah. Here are the facts:

    1. In the machlokes whether Cholov Yisroel is a dovor shebeminyan, i.e. a decree by Chazal that can never be changed, or merely a takono that applied only when there is a real concern for treife milk in the supply, Reb Moshe absolutely and unequivocally sided with the Chasam Sofer, that it is a dovor shebeminyan, and therefore there is no heter to drink milk that is bought, e.g., from a goyishe farm.

    2. Having said that, Reb Moshe then goes on to pasken that all commercial milk is cholov yisroel. He is emphatic that this psak is not merely a heter bish’as had’chak, but is 100% his opinion of what the halacha really is. To understand why he holds this you must learn all the teshuvos in Igros Moshe on the topic, not just the short ones. But those who dispute that he held this are simply liars. Stupid liars, because they rely on people not looking inside at the teshuvos.

    3. Having said that, and having made it as plain as he could, Reb Moshe then says that it’s a hidur not to rely on his heter. That a baal nefesh should not rely on it, that he himself doesn’t rely on it, and that Jewish schools, which exist for the sole purpose of educatig Jewish children to be mehader bemitzvos, must not rely on his heter. He never says why one should not rely on it, since he repeatedly insists it is the true halacha. Nonetheless, this is what he says.

    4. The fact is that although he himself did not drink commercial milk he did allow it in his home, and his Rebbetzin and children did drink it, even though regular cholov yisroel (i.e. not just according to his shita) was available in NYC.

    #1466658

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    Mesahal,

    G
    If you want to quote, by all means QUOTE THE ENTIRE T’SHUVA!

    #1466928

    Bobchka
    Participant

    Joseph that is not good enough. When poskim used the wording of Bal nefesh it used very carefully. A couple years ago AKO had a discussion of whether kashrus organizations should be giving certification on chalov Stam products. Google it there was a video. In it Rabbi Belsky ZL told 2 stores from R Moshe about how he was so careful to use that wording. Rabbi Fuerst said then he asked R Moshe that every one was disagreeing with him maybe there was something there. R Moshe respond any one arguing with his psak just does not know the sugya.

    #1466929

    Bobchka
    Participant

    I also have seen from the Shach in chosshen mishpat between 2 simanim a small kuntres which explains bal nefesh as when something is completely mutter and there is a das yachid who is machmir a person who wants to follow that chumra is allowed.
    That is not as simple as some one who cares about his neshama.

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