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On Thursday the New Jersey Assembly voted in favor of granting legal recognition to gays 42-33. Now that both houses have passed it (senate passed it 24-16) it is set to go into law…unless…the governor veto’s it. Which he did Friday, thank G-d.
However, its not over. Advocates for the bill have until January 2014 to override the bill. To override the veto there must be two thirds in both houses voting for the bill. 54 votes in the Assembly and 27 in the Senate will push the bill through and bar any future veto. It may not be easy…however….now with New York having sunk itself into the mud (thanks to our good friends Shumer and Bloomberg etc)it can still be done.
Not long after New York passed the bill there was an earthquake on the eastern seaboard, something that is a rarity. There is a Yerushalmi that says that homosexuality causes earthquakes…it was definitely a wake up call…you need to be blind not to see it!
Furthermore, the Gemorah says that one of the things that was the catalyst for the mabul was when they started writing up contracts for homosexual marriage.
I fear where we are heading. There are real spiritual forces that play a role in our lives and we need to be sensitive to them. Granted this issue may be out of our hands, however, it is our responsibility – especially in a democracy “by the people” – TO MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD. What a chillul Hashem if the people of G-d say and do nothing when all that is holy is trampled on!
Will the real mcCoy please stand up!
What should you do?
Go learn Torah, go enjoy a walk around the city, go plan your summer vacation, go … get a life?!
As I have said before, and I say it again: I don’t understand why some Americans find it so incredibly important to block this law. They aren’t making it mandatory on us to have our rabbonim officiate at these weddings, right? I just don’t get the point. Don’t you have something else to be occupied with? It seems like a sick obsession.
I’m from The Netherlands. There, and in most of Europe nowadays, marriage is – for civil law – solely a civic matter. For the law, one gets married at the local municipality/council. Aside from that – on the same day or on another day, or whenever you want, whatever you want – anyone is free to hold their own religious ceremonies of whatever type they like. The government doesn’t care about that. One can get married in a non-tznius fashion around a campfire under the moon, by a rav in an ulam. or by a priest in a church – the government doesn’t care.
Therefore also, I don’t care what the government does. Even more, I completely support it. As I have said before: I do not believe that I – or, for that matter, the Torah – is supposed to decide how other people (even more so if they are not Jewish) need to live their life. As long as this is about two consenting adults, I see absolutely no reason why I should care. I don’t want ‘them’ (ie, the goyim) to care about our religious / cultural practices – neither should we care about theirs. Let them do whatever they want and be happy with it. It doesn’t harm you.
In other words: get over it & get a life.
im with the gatesheader on this one. the definition of marriage, for me, is controlled by the torah and always has been and always will be. what the politicians do with this law has zero effect on my life so why should it bother me?
The 7 mitzvos are binding upon the gentiles, and it strictly prohibits these kinds of relationships, upon penalty of death. And the gemora says one of the reasons Rome was destroyed was because of the institution of civil homosexual marriage.
Doswin: Sure, that’s true. But if these goyim decide to violate the mitzvos Bnei Noach, is it YOUR task to force them not to? Since when do we care? Are you suddenly so concerned for their spiritual welfare?
If a bunch of non-Jews decide to worship trees and rocks, do you care? If they worship thousands of idols, do you care? Let them live their life the way they want. They let us live our lifes the way we want to – why shouldn’t you respect them? Accept that others don’t agree with you and never will.
It comes down to the same discussion I always have with missionaries. They simply cannot understand that there are people who simply DO NOT CARE about their message, their existence, their faith. Some people make the mistake of engaging in discussions with them with actual arguments. I have never made that mistake. Simply say “I don’t care”. As the Dutch say, let them jump high or low – I don’t care.
American Jews’ obsession with this law is reaching disturbing levels, IMHO.
OUR Beis Din was empowered to, and enforced, the 7 mitzvos. Yes, we do care.
Noach did not impact his generation but needed to build an ark to save his own family, Avraham called in the name of Hashem and the Jewish people were born.
What does the Torah say about the Chasidah(Stork) that is not kosher, it does kindness only with it’s own!! The poster above chose his name well it seems.
Doswin: you are not being sincere. It is also an issur for the goyim to “bless” hashem but you will never advocate a law that says anyone you does so should go to jail. It would be great if all the goyim kept the 7 laws but since when is it our job to force them to do so in their own country?
Bottom line is the goyim on the right are trying to goad religious Jews to support a cause that has nothing to do with us. Let them fight it out and keep your nose out of it (from a religious perspective. If you want stam to be a conservative then all the power to you but leave our torah out of their politics.)
I most certainly would advocate a law punishing avoda zora worship. It isn’t attainable as a practical matter. Non-recognition of toeiva IS attainable and is the status quo in fact. We are advocating maintaining that status quo that existed since the founding of this nation. And in fact toeiva might be worse than avoda zora. The gemora says that the reason the goyish countries are not destroyed is because they don’t institute civil marriage for toeiva. The gemora says no such thing about avoda zora.
Doswin: “was”, not “is”.
Just like we cannot go around killing Reform Jews for driving to their churches on shabbos, we cannot for non-Jews to keep mitzvos either.
It is indeed quite surprising: why should all of these people in NY suddenly care so much about the fate of these non-Jews? Did you ever express so much concern for the spiritual welfare of the ‘general’ population before? I fail to see the point.
By the way, don’t get me wrong – personally I think it is the most disgusting thing possible and the mere thought of two men even just walking hand in hand makes me sick. However, I recognize that is my – and our – opinion; I cannot force my opinion on the rest of the world, especially when a very large percentage of the population disagrees with that opinion.
In The Netherlands, by the way, one chareidi rav is even a council member for the same right-wing conservative Christian party that currently leads the government and supports these marriages. In The Netherlands it is simply accepted as a fact of life; the rest of Europe soon followed, and I expect that within a couple of years the US will follow as well.
TCG: If we were empowered to punish Shabbos violators today, we would. We only don’t because the goyim don’t allow us to. In Europe not that many centuries ago, our Beis Din’s were empowered to, and did, punish Torah violators. If there were a realistic chance to petition the goyim to allow our Beis Din’s to enforce the mitzvos, we most certainly would advocate having that jurisdiction.
Also, in EVERY single State its been voted on, 31 out of 50 have had popular votes, its been voted by the voters to bar recognition of such marriages. (Only the US Supreme Court could overturn that, and given its composition it is very doubtful they would.) So, clearly, US public opinion is solidly against this travesty.
Doswin: I am glad to be living in a country where people who think like you are a tiny fraction of a small minority.
Don’t delude yourself, besalel. A majority of voters in EVERY single state that had the opportunity to vote on the issue — 31 states to be exact — have voted to Constitutionally prohibit toeiva marriage. Every single time your liberal position came to a popular vote, the American people have resoundingly voted it down. 31 out 31 times.
Gateheader, the American society is more politicized than in the NL. They like to demonize their political opponents rather than have common sense which is why I can tell you what each one is going to say on any issue.
It is ironic because they talk about being free and pursuit of happiness as a foundation of the country but the society does not really hold this up.
This differs than the war on drugs which is mostly corruption based, i.e. each arrest means money and jobs for police and jails, and the court system.
Yet they cannot end neither demand nor supply.
Doswin: I was talking about free speech not gay marriage. In any event I have no problem with conservatives and I respect their views (even though I am a liberal) I just don’t like seeing our Torah getting dragged into the middle of it.
Our Torah is waaaay above the petty nonsense of the liberals versus conservatives.
@adams: “Gateheader, the American society is more politicized than in the NL.”
Correct.
Also I see that (frum) Jews are much less hesitant to express anti-government opinions. In the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany or Switzerland, I cannot imagine frum Jews openly saying things about the leader of state that, that American frum Jews say about Obama. We know that we need to respect the government in order to get its respect. We need their support to keep ourselves going – our institutions, everything. If we were to make a reputation for ourselves as radically right-wing religious extremists who bad-mouth the president/PM at each and every opportunity, that would not be a good thing…
@besalel: “Our Torah is waaaay above the petty nonsense of the liberals versus conservatives.”
Indeed. Keep us out of their silly politics.
CG
In the US the politians bend over backwards to the jewish community
In fact for many in NY (and elsewhere) Israel is a campaign stop (Politians fight over who is more Pro-Israel) and in fact there was an election around here for congressman where a non-jew was able to claim he was more Pro-Israel than a modern orthodox jew and defeat him in a district the MO jew should have won (It was a democrac district and the non-jew was a republican)
TCG and bes. You are not thinking of the literally hundreds of thousands of not yet Torah observant Jews in the USA who are likely to be further distanced and harmed by this legislation and the educational and cultural changes that will ensue.
littleapple: i dont think someone will, for one second, reconsider being gay because he or she cannot get married.
but i will go even further: who cares. Vachamushim Aloo Benei Yisroel Mimitzrayeem. Only 20% saw the geula, says the medrush.
The jewish national was ALWAYS about quality and not quantity. If the non observant are happy being gay or inter-married and wish to leave the fold, then who are we to stop them.
I’d rather have a jewish nation with a great majority of observant jews than a larger jewish nation diluted with the likes of the american jew.
let them go. we’re happy, they’re happy. just let them go.
I have a kabula from my rabbeim that the 20% is a minimum and if you want to increase your chances of making it there’s probably no better way than to change your attitude to your less fortunate brothers from whom some of the most passionate and committed Torah observant COME and try to help add to the 20% instead of writing them off. It is the Ribono shel olam who sees the quality He wants and will choose and not our untrustworthy eyes.
There are many faults with your backwards thinking but at the most basic is the twisted idea that but for gay marriage we Jews can live comfortably in regular society. Fact is gay marriage or no gay marriage the American POP culture society is no place for raising kids. I am far from being a hareidi but it has now become increasingly clear that exposing our children to what the world has to offer unfettered is a horrible idea.
Instead, we frum Jews should do our jobs raising our kids frum and let gay men and women live their lives without our involvement.
The idea that this is our fight is ludicrous. It is just as stupid as asking America to ban Christianity because it is idol worship.
We have been given the great privilege of living as we choose in this great country. The idea that we can now come to them and say live by our rules is so chutzpadik it is repulsive. Be a liberal or be a conservative or be anything else you want but leave our Torah out of it.
Precisely as besalel says. Good to see there are other sensible people around.
littleapple & jewishness: I rest my case, in lieu of besalel’s explanations which I completely agree with.
It is totally ridiculous to argue that this will affect Jews in any way. As besalel wrote, there have always been gays and there will always be gays – and people who are gay aren’t suddenly going to say “hmm then I’ll go straight” just because gay marriage is forbidden. Similarly, no straight person will say “hey suddenly I can marry my own gender! I’m gonna become gay today!”. It has nothing at all to do with the issue. Those who are gay, are gay, and those who are not, are not. Laws do not affect that.
What’s the next step some of these “anti-gay-marriage” posters will suggest? Perhaps banning marriages between black and white people? Judging by the ways I have heard Obama being described by some frum people, I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the next proposal.
I take it that TCG supports legalizing the freedom of anyone to walk undressed down his public street. After all, he is opposed to legislating morality.
TCG -“It is totally ridiculous to argue that this will affect Jews in any way. As besalel wrote, there have always been gays and there will always be gays – and people who are gay aren’t suddenly going to say “hmm then I’ll go straight” just because gay marriage is forbidden. Similarly, no straight person will say “hey suddenly I can marry my own gender! I’m gonna become gay today!”. It has nothing at all to do with the issue. Those who are gay, are gay, and those who are not, are not. Laws do not affect that.”
I believe that you are living in a dream world. Yes, people become gay because of them getting more and more rights. I can understand your lack of caring about Goyim, but I know Frum Jews who were influenced by this sickness and went off. Do you also not care about them? Do you have any feelings for other Jews?
You yourself have been influenced by the sick liberal attitude about gays, namely noone becomes like this -they are all born like this -it doesn’t affect anyone. We are entitled to equal rights, it’s discrimination, etc… Read my last post under “Women’s suffrage”!
Some people just don’t get it….
@Naisberg: what on earth does that have to do with it!? Don’t you realize the difference between the PUBLIC and the PRIVATE sphere? Are you so uneducated that you fail to understand the difference?
@Health: yes, as for secular common law, I do indeed believe in equal rights. There is nothing ‘liberal’ about that – actually I would rather classify myself as a leftist person, not rightist.
TCG – marriage is in the public sphere. We aren’t discussing here what they do in their home.
The veto was ridiculus because anyone from NJ who wanted to get married, could drive an hour or so to Brooklyn Ir Hakodesh and get married.
health: it is not a crime to commit adultery and it is not a crime to be christian. i wish people did not commit any adultery and were not idol worshipers. especially other frum jews.
i also do not think there should be a law criminalizing adultery or being christian.
in todays society adultery is prevalent. we had two us presidents (kennedy and clinton) that were quite open about it. and indeed, the openness in which american society treats adultery is disturbing and not one i want to raise my kids in. so is Christianity. my 3 year old knows way more about christmas than id like.
i still do not want adultery to be a crime. same with Christianity.
quite the opposite, id like to see laws that are guided by principles of fairness and progressive democracy which respect all people no matter their color or creed and allows them to worship as they please or not worship at all. this is the medina shel chessed that we jews have been given the right to flourish in.
TCG Perhaps you need to realize the public nature of this law which compels the recognition of these relationships as marriages, this means changes that will effect Jews in many public fields, business, education, law, insurance, etc. I agree with jewishness as to the likely effects on the general morality, a significant further deterioration – the goyim i predict will not be happy – as you say they will -if they see an increase in narcissistic selfishness bringing more crime, drug abuse, dishonesty. Your statement above just let them be is against the lesson the Torah teaches of why the Jew is in this world, IMHO. I hope you broaden your narrow view of our role.
I think we should outlaw any marriage ceremony where there is no exchange of rings and vows. After all, marriage is a Sacrament that exists between one man and one woman, as stated in the Good Book.
Any such marriage ceremony that does not contain an exchange of rings and vows should be null and void. The offenders will be guilty of Fornication, and will be punished as such. After all, Bais Din has the right to beat someone until they follow Halacha!
In addition, Divorce is hereby outlawed, as per the teachings of the Church. All those divorced shalt be jailed (and I know someone here who fits the bill 😉
besalel for President! 🙂
mods, what’s wrong with my post?
I thought I was making a very kosher point.
TCG -“@Health: yes, as for secular common law, I do indeed believe in equal rights. There is nothing ‘liberal’ about that – actually I would rather classify myself as a leftist person, not rightist.”
Yes this idea of equal rights for Gays is a big tenet in liberal philosophy. In actuality they really aren’t liberals in true sense of the word. A true liberal would believe that marriage should not be legislated at all. But these people who claim to be liberals are really just anti-morality and/or anti-establishment. (The former hippies of the 60’s!) A true liberal in philosophy should have no problem if a human married an animal. Maybe this is what’s coming next – humans will get marriage licenses with their dog or cat.
besalel -“health: it is not a crime to commit adultery and it is not a crime to be christian. i wish people did not commit any adultery and were not idol worshipers. especially other frum jews.”
Either on purpose or accidentaly you missed my point. I was not talking about forcing them to keep the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach. The fact that these Gay people already have certain rights and certain colleges push their sick philosophy on students in college is detrimental to us as Frum Jews. I know more than one case of going OTD because of their influence in today’s society. If they were back in the closet -I wouldn’t say to go find and prosecute them even though they (Goyim) have to acc. to Torah.
Either you don’t care about Yidden going off because of their influence or you are living in your own little vaccum. I hope it’s the latter because if it’s the former -you’ll have to answer why you didn’t care about other, including Frum ones, Jews.
As soon as s/o becomes numb about an issue -this is the turning point of where the Yetzer Horah has started to win. This is the way he operates -he tries to wear the opposing people down.
Just take a look at the arabs, not just the gays, have they ever stopped their propaganda against Israel and/or Jews? As long as they have been spouting their hatred -they have never wavered in their convictions. If anything they have become stronger. OTOH what happened to all the fervor that Freye Tzionim had? Not saying they are doing the right thing, but the ultimate goal of the Soton is to destroy Klal Yisroel. So he weakens them with their own convictions, even if their convictions were wrong in the first place.
The gays do the same thing they first weaken the Americans to not stopping them from being out of the closet and then they get more militant. Like influencing schools to teach about their way of life and they push the lib colleges to require woman studies which include learning about gay women living. And now it’s marriage they want -they already got the legal rights to raise kids. This sickness won’t stop, unless we or others put a stop to it!
Instead of redefining marriage, why don’t we just write a law giving tax cuts and health insurance to two people who can prove that they live in the same place.
What’s the point of saying something is that when its in fact not and for millennia never was.
big deal -“Instead of redefining marriage, why don’t we just write a law giving tax cuts and health insurance to two people who can prove that they live in the same place.”
They already have this in Jersey -it’s called civil unions.
“What’s the point of saying something is that when its in fact not and for millennia never was.”
The point is – officially the state is recognizing their way of life equal to normal way of life.
Why do we have to view it as such?
If two people, say, share the burden of carrying a mortgage/rent. Pay their property taxes together and are responsible for each other, in this way avoid being a burden on the state. Give em tax breaks and let them purchase health insurance together. Don’t call it marriage or anything else.
I still don’t see where rights come into play. Who’s bothering them?
I just want to point out that this whole tax business is utter garbage. Married couples today are much more likely to get a tax penalty than a tax benefit, because they both work.
See, there are 4 tax schedules: http://www.fourmilab.ch/ustax/www/t26-A-1-A-I-1.html
As you can see, single individuals are treated the worst.
So imagine Bob makes 53,500, and Jane makes nothing. If they don’t get married, then Bob pays 12,107 in taxes. But if they get married, then together they only pay 10,183. That is the marriage benefit.
But, imagine that Bob makes 53,500 and Jane also makes 53,500. If they live together unmarried, then each pays 12,107 in taxes, for a total of 24,214 for the two of them. But if they get married, then they have income together of 107,000 and pay in taxes 25,698.50 which is more than they would pay together if they were unmarried. And that is the marriage penalty.
Most households today are two earner households, and have the marriage penalty. Interestingly if you live in a state that recognizes gay “marriage,” you don’t get the marriage penalty since the feds don’t recognize it.
health, im afraid youre missing my point. i very much would like to see all jews keep 613 mitzvoys and i fully support private organizations that work hard at spreading the beauty of our torah to all corners of the world and i fully support private organizations that try to help gay jews live a torah lifestyle but i do not believe that my religious beliefs should be the guide by which laws of the united states are legislated.
nor do i see anything in the torah that requires me to insist that the torah be implemented as law in the united states.
TCG – surely you are not a hypocrite, and do support the legalization of polygamous marriage (not nearly as bad a toeiva marriage) as you do toeiva marriage. Correct, you are not a hypocrite?
besalel -“but i do not believe that my religious beliefs should be the guide by which laws of the united states are legislated.”
As far as this point -I can see both sides of the issue. But applying this to Toieva marriage – you are very much mistaken.
I already posted giving these people more & more rights have caused Frum people to fall into their trap. Are you so living in your own little cocoon that you don’t realize this? Or are you so
self-centered that you don’t even care about other Frum Jews?
I just came up with the solution. If can get every frum man to apply for a marriage license with another man (mutatis mutandis for women), we will overwhelm their system and they’ll be forced to accomodate us! There is no way they can find a place for all those licenses so they’ll be forced to can the whole thing.
😀
I am not continuing this discussion, no point in it. My point is clear. Those who fail to understand, or who fail to see the difference between this and polygamy – go find something else to do.
Oh well, can’t resist.
@naisberg
“TCG – surely you are not a hypocrite, and do support the legalization of polygamous marriage (not nearly as bad a toeiva marriage) as you do toeiva marriage. Correct, you are not a hypocrite?”
A few simple questions:
* how much of the population supports gay marriage?
* is gay marriage legal and problem-free in large parts of the modern world?
Now, answer the same questions for polygamy, please.
Those who fail to understand, or who fail to see the difference between this and polygamy – go find something else to do.
Gimme a break. Of course there is no difference. I don’t know why people pretend there is; if you think both are fine- just say so.
how much of the population supports gay marriage?
So now it goes by what percentage of the population supports it? Ok, what percentage of the population supported allowing marriage between a white person and a black person, 20 years ago?
TCG – PBA responded to your question to me quite well. I will add that polygamy is less problematic than toeiva marriage, and has been practiced for thousands of years (as well as being legal m’ikur hadin.)
So I take it you are (at best) hypocritical in your position, and you clearly come to this position as a result of Western/secular values (as you’ve almost made explicit in your comment) versus the values incumbant upon a Jew.
TCG – PBA responded to your question to me quite well. I will add that polygamy is less problematic than toeiva marriage, and has been practiced for thousands of years (as well as being legal m’ikur hadin.)
Agreed. I’ll just say that the government should not be able to tell any two consenting adults what they can or can not do behind closed doors. If the government feels the need to certify that relationship (for some strange reason), they should do so for everyone.
@naisberg
However, we don’t live in a Torah country, but in the modern western world. You are absolutely right: according to our belief, polygamy is most definitely FAR less a problem than gay marriage.
But we should try to protect individual freedom along certain lines, with a reasonable limit. Again, as besalel also said: who gave us the right or obligation to impose *our* religion on anyone else? I, for sure, don’t think we have that right.
Polygamy is completely out of the question for other reasons, mainly because it hugely damages the social structure of any modern society. Can you imagine us allowing it? You do realize, I assume, that huge amounts of bochurim would end up as eternal bochurim? Yay, amazing idea……
I’m not going to waste any more time on this, I have more useful things to do.
Come on, no one liked my funny? Gavra? pba? I need some validation.
TCG: Hugely damages the social structure of society more than homosexual marriage?? One must be completely out of their mind to write such a mind-boggling claim. And I’m sure you are not that. So it is patently obvious you are defending your openly hypocritical stance due to your having been strongly negatively influenced by Western societal immorality.
And this is all from a strictly secular perspective, without even begining to consider how far you’ve strayed from yiddishkeit in your views.
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