December 10, 2008 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #588841tbParticipant
Anytime there is a disagreement as to whether something is a halacha or just a chumra, someone ussually makes a comment to the effect of “well obviously if you are going to be so restrictive and not have a proper balance you are going to have kids going off the derech”
As this point is never the topic at hand it ussually does not get addressed by subsequent comments. So, since it has always annoyed me I will start a new topic for it.
1) The reason kids go off the derech – because they are too smart, too dumb, too sheltered, too exposed, the parents were too permissive, not permisive enough, they come from broken homes, were abused as children….. There is no one reason why kids go off the derech and I don’t believe that there is any data that show that they go off the derech in higher % in the “stricter” circles than in those that are more lax.
2) Someone once told me that the word FRUM is U in the middle. On the right is FR, the fanatically religious. To the left is M, the modern ones. Everyone seems to thinks that their balance is the perfect one and everyone else is being either stupidly permisive or narrowmindedly controlling.
3) What constitutes restrictive? To a non frum person, someone who is MO is leading a “restrictive” lifestyle. And to the MO, the yeshevish lifestyle is, and to the yeshivish the chasidish lifestyle can be viewed that way. And to the kids in the system? Feeling restricted is an attitude. If a chumra is given over as a restriction it will be felt like one. However if it is given over as an opportunity and practiced with a joy and a feeling of specialness, of trying to strive for greater and better things than it will (most often) be taken as such.
I am sure most of you know the famous R’ Moshe when he was asked why most of the children of those who came to america and were so moser nefesh for shabbos did not stay frum. He said that the problem was that the fathers came home after loosing their job and sighed Es iz shver tzu zein a yid – it is difficult to be a yid. So instead of the children getting a feeling of how special shabbos was they got the message that yiddishkeit was a burden and threw it off as soon as possible.
It is all a matter of attitude. If you honestly feel the joy you will (in most cases) be able to convey this to your kids when saying no to them and will not in the long run have any adverse affect on their yiddeshkeit.December 10, 2008 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #629058JosephParticipant
Thank You tb.December 10, 2008 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #629059
Thank you tb. It bothers me tremendously when kids and parents will always find a person to blame when a child goes off the D. In some specific cases kids will go off because of a rebbe or parent that was very restricting but what about the kid him/her self!!! Most kids have a very strong yetzer towards gashmius thats out there n then they find someone to place the blame on. As I myself am b’h out of the teenage years i am able to look back and see that it wasn’t my parents or teachers that made me do what I did (I did not go off jus strayed from the norms) but I know now I have only myself to blame. and I see the same story with all my friends that went off. It’s the child’s own yetzer hara and for all the kids out there that keep blaming everyone for the way they are, stop it. And for all the parents of teenagers out there keep up the good work and gluk!December 10, 2008 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #629060intellegentMember
I don’t think chumras = kids going off the derech.
My in-laws keep more chumras than anyone else I know and the none of the children have so far shown any signs of rebelling! It has a lot to do with how it is done. Somehow, my hub and his siblings are all extremely proud of the way they do things. they look up to their father more than anyone else I know.
When a child is “at risk” it usually means that they have a set of factors that can cause them to become a “problem” or “go off the derech”. However they are only at risk. It is not definite that they will go off because some people go through adversity and come out stronger and some come out broken. I am not judging a child who has a rough childhood but the fact is some are just made of stronger stuff! (Looking back, I think I could have had some good excuses to “go off the derech” should I have wanted to but I didn’t want to so I never came close to anything like that!)
I also think that when you say chumros = off the derech? it could have something to do with how the parents are. In other words if children see that their parents are two-faced, having tons of chumras to show off to the world and then are not so good at home. But it really has nothing to do because they are the exception. there are those who are really sincere and are good at home and in the streets. whatever.December 10, 2008 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #629061
gorgeousDecember 10, 2008 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #629062
TB, that was an excellent post, truly. I nonetheless do not fully agree with your implicit assertion that it makes no difference whether chareidi or modern, that going off the derech is equally seen in both camps. I have seen kids in my community (which religiously is an eclectic one, running from very frum, to barely Orthodox), and across the board the most defiant ones were the ones from the more religiously-restrictive homes. Their method of rebellion was to REALLY throw off the “shackles.” Some came back as they matured, but others sadly did not. In the more modern circles, even the kids who experimented with being less frum, came back to at least their parents’ lifestyle when they married. And I believe that is because they were able to more easily re-integrate without that feeling of being judged that is often seen in the more yeshivish world. They don’t feel like people are pointing fingers and talking about them behind their backs. Girls who are massered on by their peers for being seen talking to a boy on their own neighborhood streets, are not going to look kindly on the type of community that encourages such massering. And especially since that community purports to abhor loshon hara. The mixed messages that our kids get, is what is pulling many of them off the derech, in my opinion.December 10, 2008 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #629063
it’s not the standard in the home that cuases kids to go off. it’s the atmosphere. it’s the approach. and i’m not blaming parents or teachers or kids. every situation is different.
BUT, attitude can help in a sense that at least the kid won’t be turned off or bitter. you never know – he might turn around one day.December 10, 2008 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #629064
No, i do not think chumros make kids go off the derech in of themselves,
however looking down on anybody who dosnt keep your chumros,
or saying that your chumros are halacha when really it is very reasonable to say that they arnt,
or not honestly showing all the sides of an issue and only showing the things that back your position
can lead to a kid being severly disillusioned and possibley going off the derech.December 10, 2008 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #629065yashrus20Member
Here we go again! READ “OFF THE DERECH”. YWN should close this topic its rediculous over and over again.December 10, 2008 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #629066gavra_at_workParticipant
It’s the old story with Adam and Chava and touching the tree. Halacha is not Chumra is not Minhag.
Telling someone that there is a “din vchesbon” (meaning something hot, even if you don’tsay as such, they know thats what you mean) for anything not done to according to your standards is a quick way to get kids disillusioned; I know from first hand experience. Telling them that it is beneath a ben/bas Torah and they are better then that is much more effective.December 10, 2008 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #629067
000646, children don’t always need sources to be able to take information in. Usually hearing a powerful story or being taught the beauty of pure Yiddeshkeit is enough to positivly influence them.
But true that if a child have certain questions, the parents should bring mekoros to support his answer. Many times there is no reason to show kids the other side.December 10, 2008 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #629068
you are correct as long as you do not say there is no other side if there is one,as this is lying and if you expect your kids to trust you and beleve what you say it defenitly helps not to lie to them.December 10, 2008 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #629069
is there anything wrong with saying “we don’t do that”December 10, 2008 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #629070bored@workParticipant
Brooklyn is right, it is the atmosphere, you can keep extra chumros and that is very nice, but you have to instill in your kids a love for what they are doing. so it should not feel like a burden to them but something they get pleasure out of. It is sitting the nekudas habechira highier which is really amazingDecember 10, 2008 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #629071
Unless you have a kid off the derech YOU SHOULD ALL KEEP QUIET.December 10, 2008 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #629072
Why do you have to mention it all together? Omitting the fact that there are other opinions and other “sides” is not lyingDecember 10, 2008 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #629073yashrus20Member
Shindy you are absolutley right, and we’ve had these threads b4, its enough.December 10, 2008 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #629074
but saying that there arnt or that any other one isnt good IS lying.December 10, 2008 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #629075charlie brownMember
Unless you have a kid off the derech YOU SHOULD ALL KEEP QUIET.
I second that.December 11, 2008 3:39 am at 3:39 am #629076the chavrusahsMember
sorry charlie brown but the reason we all post is because we all think we know best. It is a place where we are free to vent in an anonymous way. MOst people are just shooting off whatever comes to mind. If this offends you i’m sorry and stay off this thread. Sometimes it is healthy to let people vent because from the fact this topic keeps coming up it is obviously on peoples mind.December 11, 2008 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #629078intellegentMember
I agree that it is silly to rehash the same topics over and over especially if we don’t know that much what we’re talking about but come on! If you don’t like the topic just don’t click!December 11, 2008 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #629079
I understand that anyone here is free to express themselves. But some of the posts I am reading are really missing the mark. I too did not understand the kid at risk issue until I had one of my own. May none of you ever experience this, it is very painful and sad.December 11, 2008 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #629080
If someone choose to raise their children in the derech of the Chofetz Chaim,Chazon Ish,Tchebiner Rav,Satmar Rebbe, R’ Chatzkel Levenstein,The Steipler, R’ Moshe Feinstein, R’ Shlomo Zalman, R’ Pam etc. etc. & all the Gedolim in the history of Klal Yisroel who weren’t mechanech their children to be Modern Orthodox, there is no reason to tell them that they are being dishonest with their children.
On the contrary, someone who tells their kids that everyone is wonderful would be the dishonest one.
(I’m not saying to be rude or obnoxious to other types -aderaba- ALL Gedolim always treated everyone with civility & courtesy, but I don’t think you have to introduce your children to every “shittah” that exsists).December 11, 2008 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #629081gavra_at_workParticipant
I am treading on eggshells here, and I am not claiming to understand your pain.
I only hope that we can learn from our joint past experiences so that we can have the outcomes we would like to have in the future.
The example which I brought is a real example (with the admonisher (a teacher) using the actual English word, which the Mod would rightfully delete). It has turned this person off from the love of Judaism, even though she/he goes through most of the motions (for various reasons). I can only hope it will be corrected over time.
That is why I shared this. Others should not make the same mistake, and if they see someone else doing this they should try to vacciniate the receiver from the effects.
I would hope others could do the same, so that I can learn what not to do. It is so hard to raise a child these days, I would hate to not have all tools possible.December 11, 2008 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #629082
I am not saying to say that you think evreything is wonderfull obviosly you can tell your kids your opinion on things
just be carefull not to bring proofs that simply arnt good (like much of the “scientific” proofs to the torah)
or say things that arnt true (such as this is the only way to really be happy in olam haza Ect.)
as this can severly diminish your credibility and leave your kid very very dissillusioned.December 11, 2008 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #629083SJSinNYCMember
Shindy, I would like to respectfully disagree with you. I dont have a child off the derech (my son is 10 months old), but I have friends who left, relatives etc…I have some insight as to what they told me and what I saw.
Its not exactly that chumras=off the derech, the equation is much more complicated than that. I agree with much of Oomis’s post. I especially agree that its a lot easier to re-integrate within modern orthodoxy than it is more right wing. The kids are also less likely to stray that far, because they can still be a part of the community and experiment with the boundaries (no one will say its ok, but the child wont be shunned as s/he would be in the more right wing circles).
When you dont explain to your kids why they are doing what they are (within reason, and age appropriate), they might struggle with a chumra, get so frustrated and finally throw off the yoke of Torah. If they had known it was a chumra, they might just have followed a less stringent approach. This is all part of chinuch! As you raise your kids you teach them. Kids need to understand what they are doing and why – where it comes from, is it a minhag hamakom or a chumra or flat out halacha. Everyone needs to ultimately choose their own level of observance.
Hypocrisy is also a HUGE reason why kids go off the derech. A few of the people I know, could no longer stomach what terrible things were going on behind the scenes by supposedly respectable people. They were tired of all of it being ignored because the person was “choshov.” They saw all the outward displays of being more frum than the next person, but nothing was internalized. One of the biggest parts of Judaism is how you treat people, and without that, all they saw was a system of repression.
Brooklyn, there is something wrong with just saying “We dont do that.” You need to understand how halacha works so that when you face a similiar situation, you can apply the halacha. You cannot call you rav every step of the way! “We dont do that” may work on a 5 year old, but a 15 year old? A 15 year old has the pull of the outside world saying “Look at all the fun we have, no restrictions, do whatever you want” and all you are offering your children is “we dont do that?” Now, not everything has an answer but if you instill in your children a love of Torah, then the few laws you cannot explain are will be ok with them because they will believe and understand the premise.
Now, not every kid who goes off the derech experiences things like this. Some just dont feel that connection to Judaism and want to go on their way. They may just not want to have all the restrictions.
I dont think I did a very good job explaining my thoughts. This is hard to convey this way. My heart goes out to everyone effected by children off the derech.December 11, 2008 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #629084
“Now, not everything has an answer but if you instill in your children a love of Torah, then the few laws you cannot explain are will be ok with them because they will believe and understand the premise.”
Exactly, hopefully that will keep them connected but even if a child has a very strong solid background, often they will just try some of the garbage out there and get hooked.
I don’t think there is a clear cut answer, it depends on the kid and Hashem should send all their parents koach to continueDecember 11, 2008 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #629085tzippiMember
It appears to me that a kid CAN be turned off by hypocrisy yet have the best home environment. All one can do in such a case is keep on doing what s/he is, and the child who goes off may well have respect for their parents and what they stand for, and a loving relationship, especially if the child has felt that his/her parents have always tried to act in their children’s best interests.December 11, 2008 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #629086
“Hypocrisy is also a HUGE reason why kids go off the derech. A few of the people I know, could no longer stomach what terrible things were going on behind the scenes by supposedly respectable people. They were tired of all of it being ignored because the person was “choshov.” They saw all the outward displays of being more frum than the next person, but nothing was internalized. One of the biggest parts of Judaism is how you treat people, and without that, all they saw was a system of repression.”
You hit the nail on the head! I am liking your posts more and more. Enjoy your baby and have yiddishe nachas!December 11, 2008 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #629087
If that’s really what you meant the first time than I think we’re O.K.
HOWEVER, now I’m going to say something that will really get you & oomis & sjs REALLY insulted. But please understand I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings…we’re just trying to have a constructive dialoge here.
O.K. here goes…
Oomis & sjs pointed out that it’s a lot easier for someone off the derech to reintegrate to Modern Orthodox society. Both seemed to feel that this was because an off the derech person feels “looked down upon” by the black hat community.
Might I offer a different, simpler & in my opinion more accurate explanation?
Because Modern Orthodoxy is closer than Chareidi life to the lifestyle they are living now.
Just like it’s easier (o.k. maybe not JUST like – but you get the point) for a Taimani to acclimate to a Morrocan lifestyle than to a Modern Orthodox (or yeshivish!) lifestyle.
Just something to think about.
PLEASE DON’T TAKE MY WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT! Just consider the idea.December 11, 2008 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #629088
It is what i meant, and yup its possible.December 11, 2008 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #629089
1) “I dont think I did a very good job explaining my thoughts. This is hard to convey this way. My heart goes out to everyone effected by children off the derech. “
Yes you did. You said it quite well.
2) “now I’m going to say something that will really get you & oomis & sjs REALLY insulted. But please understand I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings…we’re just trying to have a constructive dialoge here.O.K. here goes…Oomis & sjs pointed out that it’s a lot easier for someone off the derech to reintegrate to Modern Orthodox society. Both seemed to feel that this was because an off the derech person feels “looked down upon” by the black hat community.”
Might I offer a different, simpler & in my opinion more accurate explanation?
Because Modern Orthodoxy is closer than Chareidi life to the lifestyle they are living now.”
I don’t insult easily, so don’t worry. I disagree with you, though. What you imply is that Modern Orthodoxy = not so religious.
There are many levels of frumkeit within the MO life. Many of us who consider ourselves MO, (talking about women now) cover our hair at all times after marriage, wear clothing that covers our bodies properly, daven three times a day, keep Taharas Hamishpacha to the nth degree, and Shabbos and Kashrus without a question, go to shiurim regularly, and do tons of chessed work in our communities. We have also learned that when a child goes off the derech chalilah, it is not something to hide, but to seek help in dealing with it, working hard to keep the lines of communication open, and accepting that child, so he or she will have a place they WANT to come back to.
The only thing I would not tolerate is the use of drugs. If my child did drugs, he would have to live elsewhere and I would try to get him help in kicking them. But if what he rebelled in was being mechallel Shabbos, or hanging out with less than desirable friends, I would hope I would try to draw him closer. I have not had this problem, so it is easy for me to say all this, from the comfort of my chair. But I have seen firsthand what happens when the chareidim “lose” one of their own. The parents nebbich are the subject of a lot of gossip and whispers (and what a lovely example of middos bein adam l’chavero THAT shows!), and forget about the effect this has on shidduchim for the other kids. Why do you think Lubavitch (and I am not Lubavitch) has been so successful in their kiruv work? They bring people closer to Hashem with love and chessed. Our kids who went astray are far likelier to respond to being welcomed back with warmth, than being made to feel “it’s my wasy or the highway.” The middle of the road is to be commended, not castigated.December 11, 2008 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #629090
🙂December 11, 2008 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #629091
The 🙂 was for 000646
Firstly, thanks for not getting insulted.
Second, & I’ll say this very b’kitzur (& again please don’t be insulted)
The reason why chabad has been so succesful is indeed similar to MO, & that is because the standards are low. It’s easier.
To be chareidi takes real commitment & the desire to maintain higher standards.
If someone is not frum & now they walk around half naked & they are told that to be frum you can wear sandals with no socks, (if I remember correctly from previous threads your “orthodox” Rabbi says you can wear pants & don’t have to cover your hair) can eat anything with any hechsher & so forth so of course you’ll make more Baalei Tshuva than chareidim who won’t let you get away with that stuff.
So it has nothing to do with feel-good reasons like drawing them close with love & chessed. The Chareidim who do Kiruv provide JUST AS MUCH if not more love & chessed toward Baalei Tshuva than any other group.
The real reason is what I said – because the change in lifestyle from not religous to Modern Orthodox is signifigantly less, being that less is expected of them religiosity-wise.December 11, 2008 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #629092
The reason why chabad has been so succesful is indeed similar to MO, & that is because the standards are low. It’s easier.
No, it is because Chabad does not pressure anyone to go too far too fast and accepts that not everyone will reach the level of a true Chabad chossid, nor is it our aim to create Chassidim when we know that for many of the people who become involved, even keeping basic kashrus is a huge step.
Surprise – the standards, as opposed to the hashkofo, of a Chabad chossid are not unlike those of Satmar (yes, I know we have a tznius crisis and a parallel OTD crisis but based on posts here and articles elsewhere it seems the crisis is everywhere – it is just that since we “get around” more our problems are more noticeable).
We do not have “my way or the highway” (silly, immature comments here and there by the teen and young adult crowd about “snags” notwithstanding) and we are open to all (getting thrown out of a Chabad House or Chabad shul is a real achievement, kind of like lehavdil managing to get arrested for marijuana possession in S. Francisco or Berzerkely or having ended up in the remedial class at the Chelm Yeshiva Ketono if such a thing existed).
I am not a shaliach myself, so that I am amazed at how my friends who are shluchim deal with some of the challenges that are presented to them by the conduct and beliefs of visitors and community members alike.December 11, 2008 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #629093
Concerning the chabadzkers who are above the age of 60 I’ll accept that the standards are not lower.
“Anything goes” is not a “mayla”.
NOONE who is normal from any sect pressures anyone to go too fast.
The training given to yeshivish black hatters going out to do kiruv (by Ohr Lagolah & Ner Laeleph etc.)is better than any other group.(I may be wrong on that one but I don’t think I am)December 11, 2008 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #629094
Notpashut, I guess we will not see eye to eye on this issue, but you express yourself well, nonetheless and I can respect that. Maybe your own way of dealing with the kiruv issue is commendably warm and welcoming. It is not so in much of the chareidi world, in spite of what you believe.December 11, 2008 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #629095
It is really of no use saying which group is more successful in doing kiruv. When you are dealing with a kid at risk, they need loads of love even with all their acting up. They need love and understanding. I switched my daughter out of a BY to a modern orthodox school, thinking that this would be more easy going with the laws, but it was a real disappointment. Not saying that all modern orthodox schools wouldn’t have been able to handle her, but this one was not able to. Nowadays many schools are competing one against the other, they are very worried about their name and reputation, making it hard for them to show a little love and understanding to a kid that is going through a rough time. I don’t want to put all the blame on the schools, as there are alot of factors involved, but sometimes if a kid is unhappy with yeshiva they will throw frumkiet out of the window.December 12, 2008 12:48 am at 12:48 am #629096
We are not “anything goes”.
We are open to all.
Nevertheless, we maintain our own standards – but with us not everyone has to adopt our standards because we recognize that not everyone is ready, willing or able to “become frum” given how deep we are in golus.
So, we are happy to get even the Jew who is intermarried to make a brocho on the nerois Chanuka; we don’t condone his having intermarried and we do the utmost to make sure any of his unmarried brothers and sisters don’t make the same tragic mistake, but we know that Torah does not say that because you failed in one area, you are therefore beneath keeping any other of the 613 mitzvos. Otherwise, there would be no minyan in Otisville because ganovim would be potur from tefillah 🙂 🙂 :).
There is a HUGE difference between that and “anything goes”.
I am below 60 and so are my friends.
We are not exactly in a city that is teeming with frum Yidden, and we deal with Yidden on all levels day in and day out. Our standards are no different than those of the generation before us living in Crown Heights, or Kfar Chabad, or Los Angeles. If anything some of us are even more careful than we would be if we lived in a bigger community, because while we are there for all, we want to make sure that we remain who we are in a foreign environment.
In fact, younger frum people of all stripes have higher standards than the old generation because we were born in the US or EY and did not have the struggles of the refugee generation or the first American generation.
As for the schools, the quandary is that they need funds to run, and sometimes any school has to bend or omit services because the money just isn’t there or won’t come. But on the other hand, there is such a huge choice out there that every child must fit into some school even if in some cases parents have to make the hard decision to let their children board away from town to get not only the right school, but a different atmosphere that may be best for their growth.December 12, 2008 8:02 am at 8:02 am #629098
oomis & Itzik,
I guess as you said oomis, we are going to have to disagree.
But keep up the good work anyway!December 12, 2008 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #629099SJSinNYCMember
Shindy, thank you for that! All too often people are quick to just “blame the parents” when often its not the case.
First, I agree with Oomis that MO does not equal less religious. I think the biggest fundamental difference is that MO does not assur the muttar.
In my experience with the yeshivish community, if someone found out something like my friend eating out, the woman would be ostracized and a boat load of lashon hara would be circulating about her. She would probably be pushed further and further from Judaism until she gave it all up.
Now, is MO perfect – NO! Many times kids from more yeshivish backgrounds think MO means you can pick and choose at will and try to join the movement. They often leave when they discover that the rules are just interpreted differently, but still there.
Now, notpashut, before flaming me for some of these statements, please think about them also 🙂December 12, 2008 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #629100
they also wore robes to the floor. i highly doubt anyone saw their legs. remember the story with david hamelech? how michal rebuked him cuz his leg showed a little when he was dancing? and he was a man! she was wrong – but look at her sensetivitly towards tznius? and where did she learn it from? her father!
because of rachel’s tznius, she was zoche to have shaul. and in the zchus of his tznius, he was zoche to have esther.
you know how amazing shaul was? when he was chasing david he entered a cave to releave himself. he thought the cave was empty but really david and his men were there. yoav told david that this was his chance to kill shaul. when david approached he saw how tznius shaul was when he thought he was ALONE and he was going to the BATHROOM! chazal say that he naver exposed himself completely – when he picked up his inner layer of clothing, he made sure the outter layer was covering him. and he was a guy! imagine a woman???December 12, 2008 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #629101
I alawys understood that story (with dovid) as follows:
If the color purple would have been unbecoming of a king she would have rebuked him for that, the thing she was rebuking him for was not his leg showing per se but rather that she felt the way he was dancing was unbecoming of a king.
i may have been wrong although i think my way makes more sense
if you have a proof that she was rebuking him because of the leg per se (and not because showing the leg was unbecoming of a king at that time) please post itDecember 13, 2008 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #629102
oomis & Itzik,
I guess as you said oomis, we are going to have to disagree.
But keep up the good work anyway!
So long as you end that way, there is nothing left to discuss – everyone has different ways of doing things and all ways seem to work for someone.
The question is how to apply this to schools as it seems that the “OTD” problem and chinuch crisis is across the board.December 13, 2008 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #629103
SJS, To say that the difference between MO & Black hat is that MO doesn’t “assur the muttar” is off-base.
According to your logic, your Rav also assured the muttar when he said that you can’t eat starkist tuna, being that most other Rabbonim say that it’s muttar.
On many, if not most halachos in Shulchan Aruch there is a Machlokes how to pasken.
The difference between MO & black hat (in this regard) is that MO Rabbanim will usually pasken like the maikel side even if most acharonim pasken like the machmir side (obviously there are exceptions)) & in general find “kulos”.
So maybe you could say that MO “mattirs the assur”.
Now I know what you are thinking & we can go in circles till we turn blue in the face (or fingers) & end up right back where we started.
I think your comments & approach to to your friend with the food are foolish & absurd.
We don’t accept people who eat in treife resteraunts – PERIOD. (Sorry if I sound like Joseph on that one.)
It just so happens that the Chofetz Chaim (Klal 4)says that one SHOULD speak Lashon Hara about the type of person you describe.
It is the MO’s “acceptance” of such behavior which makes such a lifestyle less threatening to a potential BT.
As far as eating in her home – I am not a Rav – but I believe you are correct. (See, at least we agree on something! 🙂December 14, 2008 1:49 am at 1:49 am #629104
you’re right in that her resoning was that she felt it was unbecoming. but WHAT did she feel was unbecoming? what was she sensetive to? the fact that his leg showed. it was the tznius that she learnt from her father. true, (whether right or wrong) shaul might have not been the type to dance in public at all. but michal wasn’t rebuking david for dancing. she wasn’t stupid – she knew her father and david were very different and had differnt ways of serving hashem and she accepted that. except for when it touched on shaul’s greatness. and like i said, she was wrong and she was punished for it. but WHERE was that coming from? a praiseworthy aspect of king shaul.
check out the radak in shmuel II, perek vav, pasuk chaf.December 14, 2008 3:01 am at 3:01 am #629105illini07Member
I have to wonder what the Chofetz Chaim would say nowadays when it is apparent that 90+% of the time, speaking lashon hara about such a person pushes them away from Judaism and all but eliminates the chances that the person will do teshuva. Ostracism doesn’t work like it used to – it has become easier to leave the community in this day and age.December 14, 2008 3:06 am at 3:06 am #629106
“chazal say that he naver exposed himself completely – when he picked up his inner layer of clothing, he made sure the outter layer was covering him. and he was a guy! imagine a woman??? “
If he was completely alone, and Dovid saw him, and presuming Dovid did not publicize the incident, I wonder how chazal knew what Shaul did or did not do while relieving himself.December 14, 2008 5:34 am at 5:34 am #629107
I saw the radak, i dont see anything that indicates that she felt the bizayon was due to anything other then the fact that at that time it was unfitting for a king to dance that way as it mentions that shual also never uncoverd his arms,
nowadays there are pictures of plenty of big gedolim (ive seen ones with r’moshe and r’yaakov) with there sleeves rolled up.December 14, 2008 5:52 am at 5:52 am #629108JosephParticipant
Chazal had Ruach Hakodesh.
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