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This is an automated translation to english from the letter as printed in the 1900 sefer אור לישרים, available on HebrewBooks.
A Letter from the Admor, Famous in All Corners of the Earth, Shlita, from Lubavitch
Regarding your question about the Zionists and their Bank, I will answer you briefly:
a) Behold, even if these men were wholehearted with Hashem and His Torah [emphasis added] , and even if there were reason to think they could achieve their goal, we are forbidden to listen to them in this matter: to bring about our redemption through our own power. For are we not forbidden even from “forcing the End” (d’chikat ha-ketz) by multiplying our entreaties for it? (See Rashi, Ketubot 111a, s.v. shelo yidchaku es ha-ketz; and what is written in Shir HaShirim Rabbah, Ch. 2, on the verse “I adjure you…”). How much more so is it forbidden [to attempt this] through physical powers and stratagems—that is, to leave the exile by force. We are not permitted to do so, and our redemption and the freeing of our souls will not come through this. This is especially so as it runs contrary to our true hope, for our entire longing and hope is that the Holy One, Blessed be He, will bring us our righteous Mashiach, speedily in our days, and our redemption will be by the Holy One, Blessed be He, Himself.
As is written in the Midrash Rabbah on the verse “For with You is the source of life,” even the redemption that was through Moshe and Aharon was not a complete redemption, and they returned [to exile]. And all the more so the redemption that was by Chaggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, etc., even though they acted according to the prophecy of Yirmiyahu and according to the later prophets who were with them. In this exile, we must hope only for our redemption and our salvation from the Holy One, Blessed be He, Himself—not through flesh and blood—and then our redemption will be complete.
b) Furthermore, in truth, all their affairs and their foundations are mere fantasy, for their desire is impossible to bring to fruition, as there will be no agreement on this in any way. And we, too, by our very nature, are not suited for this. It is only the bribe of licentiousness and power that blinds the eyes of the primary activists in this matter, and after them, the fools walk in darkness.
c) And what surpasses all else is that the primary activists in this matter are complete deniers of Hashem and His Torah. Their entire desire and aim is to cast off the yoke of the Torah and the Mitzvot and to hold fast only to nationalism (le’umiyut), and this will be their Judaism. This was stated not long ago by one of their special leaders in a public article, blaspheming and reviling all of Judaism before the eyes of all Israel. He dared to say for all to see that not everyone who observes the Torah and Mitzvot is a Jew, etc. And regarding many of the Torah’s commandments, they say that they are—(may their mouths be sealed)—a disgrace to Israel. And this they wish to implant in the hearts of the youth through the education they seek to seize under their control in their schools, in order to instill in them the poison and venom of heresy (kefirah), may the Merciful One save us, against the Torah and Mitzvot. Only nationalism will be their banner.
One of their leaders even dared to create a “new Torah,” that is, a Five Books of the Torah, but not as it was given to Moshe from Sinai. Rather, he omitted many verses and many sections and laws that were not proper in his eyes. He is prepared to print this new Torah, and this he will teach the youths in the schools. And this will be one of the functions of the Bank: to establish schools for youths to educate them in the aforementioned path.
And until they succeed in using the power of the Bank to rebuild the ruins of our land, to repair roads and railways and the other things mentioned in their program, they will apply their strength to the education of the youth and to “culture” in general, in order to implant in the youth and the young people of the generation a “root that grows gall and wormwood.” Their emissaries are the Zionist preachers (matifim), who preach to the masses sermons of slander and speak rebelliously against the prophets of Hashem, and even against Moshe Rabbeinu, the master of all prophets, with whatever comes to their minds. Woe unto us that it has come to this in our days! Whatever means they find to sway the heart of the masses to their opinion and their spirit, there is no prevention or hindrance to it whatsoever, and there is no restraint to their evil spirit. For in truth, most of them desire, Heaven forfend, to remove the heart of Israel from Hashem and His Torah and to demean in their eyes all the sacred treasures of Israel. This is the desire of the leaders, and the body is drawn after the head (gufa batar reisha grir). And if, Heaven forfend, they succeed in taking hold of the land as they imagine in their souls, they will defile it and make it abominable with their abominations and their evil deeds, and they will thereby, Heaven forfend, lengthen the duration of the exile.
After all these true statements, consider well, our brothers: Is this something that Hashem desires? And will the salvation of Israel come through them? No, we will not accept this in any way! Even the “good” of these men we will cast before them. It is not in this “good” that we are interested, but rather in the good that Hashem has given us through the fulfillment of the Torah and Mitzvot, as it is written: “If you walk in My statutes… I will give your rains [in their season]…” This is what we desire, and for this is all our hope. And those who assist the aforementioned Zionists are destined to give an accounting, for they strengthen the hands of those who cause the masses to sin. Therefore, whoever is for Hashem and His Torah will not associate with evildoers and will not cleave to them. On the contrary, he will oppose it in every possible way. And until it is the will of Hashem to redeem us, we must accept the yoke of exile to atone for our sins. We must strengthen ourselves and stand against every wave, and be strong and courageous in the fulfillment of the Torah and Mitzvot, for this is what Hashem demands of us. And we must hope to Him, may His name be blessed, for His salvation is near to come, and our righteous Mashiach will arrive, speedily in our days. “And though he may tarry, wait for him,” for the matter depends on the rectification of our deeds. And may Hashem, may He be blessed, have mercy upon us and hasten and speed our redemption, speedily in our days.
And as for the Zionists’ claim, “Why do the God-fearing and the pious not stand at the head [of the movement]?”
a) How can the God-fearing stand at the head of a movement that opposes the entirety of our faith regarding the matter of the true redemption, as explained above?
b) The God-fearing cannot participate with them, because they [the Zionists] will not listen to the words of the God-fearing in matters of faith and education, and they will do their deeds according to the will of the licentiousness that is planted and rooted in their souls. And they will further dare to say that the God-fearing also agree to this. And many of the Jewish masses will believe in their innocence that all their actions are also with the agreement of the God-fearing and the pious. And if [the God-fearing] later separate from them and cry out bitterly against them (if they are even given space for their words in the press), their separation will not be as effective as was their prior participation. We see this now with one of their great ones who left and separated from the Executive Committee to oppose them; nevertheless, his separation and his current opposition did not undo the effect of his prior participation…
c) In truth, they do not want the God-fearing to participate with them at all, because they would nevertheless stand against them in the evil path they have chosen for themselves (to cast off from themselves the yoke of the Torah and Mitzvot completely, so that their entire Judaism will be only nationalism, as mentioned above). As happened at the Warsaw assemblies, when the rabbis demanded that the Executive Committee also have a rabbinic committee, they did not agree to this in any way. And their emissaries—who are the writers—came out in the press with articles against the rabbis, made them a mockery, and reviled them, saying that the rabbis had dared to demand such a thing, and more in such language. From this it is patently clear that they do not want the participation of the God-fearing, so as not to be disturbed from their evil thought. And may Hashem, may He be blessed, annul their counsel…And as for their further claim that they are doers and achievers for the good of their people, while the God-fearing sit with folded hands and do nothing: let us see what they have done for the good of our people. We will not speak of the Zionists who, in the nearly three years since the Zionist movement arose, have not done a single thing or half a thing for the good of our Jewish brethren. They have achieved only one thing: the shores of the Holy Land have been closed before all Jews, from whatever country they may be. And they [the authorities] will not ratify any purchase of a house or land by our Jewish brethren who are not under Ottoman protection… Since the Hovevei Tzion society began, the shores of the Holy Land were closed to those coming from Russia and Romania, and the purchase of land and houses was forbidden to those from all countries (except Ottoman subjects) who were new arrivals. It is known to all how many suffered from this and lost their money in a bad affair. And when the Zionist movement arose, entry was forbidden to all Jews, and purchase [of land] was also forbidden to the old-timers. With this, they have done a very great evil to our brethren who have been living there for a long time, and thereby a distinction was created between those who came to Eretz Yisrael which had not existed before. They have disgraced and lowered the honor of the Children of Israel in the eyes of the inhabitants of the land. And all this has come upon Israel at a great cost in money, beginning with the half-shekels they collected and afterwards with the shares for which they gathered a great sum, and they have accomplished nothing. They only want us to believe in them and their promises.
It is sheer brazenness on their part to demand from others when they themselves have shaken the world and collected a huge sum, and also spent it, yet have done nothing for the good of our brethren.
Indeed, even the Hovevei Tzion society in Odessa, which was founded about ten years ago with the permission of His Majesty’s government, what have they done for the good of our brethren? The one good thing they accomplished was the founding of the colony Chadera (Kastina). And as I have been told by a most trustworthy man who knows that colony well and knows its people well, this colony has only a few families. They do not have houses (only plank buildings), but only what is given to them for their toil in working the land, a franc and a half per day for each worker (and the income belongs to the society). They are impoverished slaves. They also support a small number of families in the colony of Petach Tikva with the profits from the etrogim. And this is their great benefit to all of Israel.
Good deeds and support of this kind are done by every rabbi and every homeowner in his city for the poor homeowners in a way that they will not need to receive charity again (unlike the colonists, who require constant support). Even the colonists of Baron Hirsch, who gave each one an inheritance with all the equipment, which amounts to ten thousand rubles and more per person—and it has been more than twenty years since his colonies were founded—they nevertheless require constant support, and only a few colonists have managed to become self-sufficient. And this too is through the Baron’s great generosity in being good to them.
[In our communities,] rabbis and community leaders support the poor of their city, and all this is done without a great clamor and commotion and is not known to the public at all. Even in towns which are not distinguished for their charitable deeds, they support far more than the Hovevei Tzion support. And many who make a great noise in the world… after the great clamor they raise, they collect more than forty thousand rubles a year. What have they done in ten years for the good of our brethren? Their strength is only in their mouth and their pen. Their tongue speaks great things, and with the power of their pen they expand and magnify every little thing they do or think of doing. And when they get a whiff of any opposition from someone, they fall upon him like ravening lions and pour upon him words of contempt and shame, and they seek to burn him with the breath of their mouths and the ink of their pens.
But “what advantage has the master of the tongue?” (Kohelet 10:11). With the breath of their mouths they will not create new realities, nor will they deceive the eyes of those who see. For in actual deed, we see nothing. How can they improve the lot of all Israel with such a small and insignificant amount of support? And they still call themselves “doers” and “achievers” for the good of our brethren. How are they not ashamed to say such a thing, and even to demand of others for their lack of action, when in truth those who are being challenged do much more than them, each in his city and in his place? And there are also among us those who are concerned with improving the lot of the many, to better their financial situation, and they do not make a commotion in the world at all, but do good in actual practice.
And may Hashem, may He be blessed, raise the horn of our Jewish brethren higher and higher and hasten and speed our redemption, speedily in our days.
The words of your friend who desires truth in your true love, who awaits the salvation of the Holy One, Blessed be He, soon,
Shalom Dovber
Lubavitch has always been strongly anti-Zionist. In fact, the Lubavitcher Rebbes have traditionally been from the most vocal anti-Zionists; Lubavitch is as much anti-Zionist as Satmar and Brisk.
The fact that you think we care what the lubavitxh rebbe said. Lol sorry but I’m tired of this blind fath and G-dlike whatever you partain to him so he said something great. I also said something
Chabad / Lubavitch was originally anti-Zionist,
but then they later became pro-Zionist.I do not know when or why Chabad
changed from anti-Zionist to pro-Zionist.But I know that they did make that change.
There are many other letters showing that all gedolei Yisrael recognized that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy, not just the prior Chabad Rebbe.
It’s not a secret and it’s rather obvious, too. The “Religious” Zionists tend to be the most fanatical Zionists of all Zionists.Chabad is a significant movement in the Zionist “State”, so they need to be in the good graces of the wicked Zionists.
if any of the antizionists here are actually peleg or satmar they would not accept the rebbe as a source
Square: Lubavitch is still anti-Zionist today.
The only difference with the past is that they don’t talk much about it anymore.
Some jew, thanks for posting. Note that there are some items here that I think everyone here will agree, such as the anti religious attitudes of original zionists. Then there are several items where Fridriker rebbe establishes criteria of what is good : allowing Yidden to go.to EY and to provide economic help. His estimates and predictions were incorrect though, and his successor accepted it and changed policies.
for example, this judgment is premature – not just for Hadera has houses by now but for the “their great benefit to all of Israel.”
Indeed, even the Hovevei Tzion society in Odessa, which was founded about ten years ago with the permission of His Majesty’s government, what have they done for the good of our brethren? The one good thing they accomplished was the founding of the colony Chadera (Kastina). And as I have been told by a most trustworthy man who knows that colony well and knows its people well, this colony has only a few families. They do not have houses (only plank buildings), but only what is given to them for their toil in working the land, a franc and a half per day for each worker (and the income belongs to the society). They are impoverished slaves. They also support a small number of families in the colony of Petach Tikva with the profits from the etrogim. And this is their great benefit to all of Israel.
> Furthermore, in truth, all their affairs and their foundations are mere fantasy, for their desire is impossible to bring to fruition, as there will be no agreement on this in any way. And we, too, by our very nature, are not suited for this. It is only the bribe of licentiousness and power that blinds the eyes of the primary activists in this matter, and after them, the fools walk in darkness.
this did not age well also.
> One of their leaders even dared to create a “new Torah,” that is, a Five Books of the Torah, but not as it was given to Moshe from Sinai. Rather, he omitted many verses and many sections and laws that were not proper in his eyes. He is prepared to print this new Torah, and this he will teach the youths in the schools. And this will be one of the functions of the Bank: to establish schools for youths to educate them in the aforementioned path.
And this was definitely scary – and it did not survive as many other ideas of non-religious Jews. You can’t say that this was not worth paying attention to, of course, as so many Jews were going after various -isms, but we should be grateful to Hashem that things turned out better than feared.
R Yoel strongly disagreed with that letter. He believed in religious Zionism very strongly. He even called the Zionists for assistance in leaving Hungary.
One cannot escape the fact that untold numbers of Jews lost their religion and connection to the RBSHO because of the historical Z movement.
Somehow , by some illogical obscure logical deduction, that means that many millions of innocent Jews could be deprived of their lives, their liberty and their property.
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…Why are we still obsessed with what Rabbanim thought in that era of history? Hashem didn’t put us on this Eretz in order to be beating up dead horses. Right now, we have specific issues to deal with, and we have living Rabbanim for that.
peleg and satmar, both, most definitely accept the rebbe rashab .
it s the rebbe maham shilo who is not accepted.
Rav Yissachar Shlomo Teichtal HY”D was also a major anti-Zionist – until he changed his view in the midst of the Holocaust and became a Zionist, writing his magnum opus “Eim haBanaim Semeicha” to explain his change of heart an new Shita. Using a letter from a Gadol that was written 125 years ago in a very different circumstance as an absolute indication as to how he’d feel about a situation today is as ridiculous as relying solely on medical knowledge from 125 years ago to treat a disease today, while ignoring any developments in the interim.
an Israeli Yid
yankel > One cannot escape the fact that untold numbers of Jews lost their religion and connection to the RBSHO because of the historical Z movement.
I am not so sure of that. There were plenty of other non/anti-religious movements at the time, attractive both for material reasons (conversion, assimilation) and those who were idealistic (communists, bundists). True, I can see that someone still attached to Jews as a nation, will not be attracted to many foreign -isms, but would be to Zionism. But I think this balances with number of Jews who were saved by Zionism – first by encouraging them to go to EY before WW2 and by keeping non-religious Jews in Israel, marrying Jews, etc. R Schach writes that Hashem gave the brocha to early Zionists that Arabs did not accept them. Otherwise, they would go to universities if Beirut and Cairo and assimilate …
Even look at Soviet Jews in 1980-90s – half went to Israel and half to US. Those who came to US are way more assimilated and intermarried.
This whole idea that the haggadic term of heresy is somehow identical to the halachik term of heresy , is nothing more than a laughingstock.
All of somejew and katans and satmar ‘s so called “heresies” are nothing more than polemical terms to discourage association with the Z .
Fact is that neither the yayin nor the eduyot of the fully frum religious Zionists are rejected anywhere in mainstream Orthodoxy.
Clear proof of the halachik non heresy of religious zionists.
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Nu, and Rav Schach said similar things about Chabad. The fact is that far greater rabbis, such as Rav Kook, supported Zionism, and particularly Religious Zionism.
somejew is asked hereby to stop calling non heresies by the name of heresies.
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He should stop relying on age old kol korei’s and related stories .And start bringing iron clad proofs from chazal for his “heresy calls”.
If he calls something a heresy or someone a heretic , he has to back it up with halacha lema’aseh repercussions.
Like invalidating all marriages and divorces performed with eidim with Z sympathies.
As long as he does not do this . Or someone else of his deluded friends and followers , all his heretic type of comments are to be totally disregarded
To KGN
I fully endorse your position. YU is routinely attacked because Rabbi Gifter ZTL made negative comments about the institution 80 years ago. The State of Israel exists and we must support it. That the original Zionists were anti-Torah had no bearing on the current situation.
I think this letter is a good contribution to the discussion. We can see that certain statements and predictions came up differently in history. Clearly shows that even big talmidei chachamim do not always see what will happen. In this case, the letter is well written and lists reasons and assumptions, so it is possible to see the parts that need re-evaluation.
To yankel berel
You’re right that people use the “h” word loosely, but Rabbi Manis Friedman is a Kofer. He has openly stated that no Jew in our time can be punished no matter what he does because of the length of the bitter Golus.
To some Jew
I understand and respect your viewpoint, but I disagree with it. There are Gedolim on both sides of the fence on this issue. If you choose to remain anti-Zionist I won’t try to change your mind, but I am certainly not interested in what some Rabbi said 125 years ago.
somejew > “even if these men were wholehearted with Hashem and His Torah , and even if there were reason to think they could achieve their goal, we are forbidden to listen to them in this matter: to bring about our redemption through our own power.” … The Rebbe list his sources and explains its application to the situation.
I agree that this part of his argument stands better than others. Still, are you not shocked by the number of assumptions in this letter that turned out different? Does it not make you think that the issue is complicated and you need to be careful with conclusions?
But, strictly speaking about current matzav, as others are calling here – we are not deciding now whether to go against Arab armies into EY. We currently have several millions of Jews in EY, including multitudes of religious ones, yeshivos and chesed organizations all over the place – are 3 shevuos saying anything about this? any classical commentator discussing this b’dieved situation? Should we apologize and return to the shtetlach in Ukraine? Sephardim going back to Syria and Morocco?
Those uninterested in what some rabbis said 125 years ago or 80 years ago, should burn their Talmuds.
message to qwerty
When have you last looked at the thread “I’m back 3.0” ?
To ujm
I’ll add another point to my previous post. When I said that I’m not interested in what those Rabbis said in the past I meant that such statements don’t necessarily stand up over time. I don’t believe that Rabbi Gifter would speak ill of YU if he saw the Yeshiva as it’s presently constituted.
who did I call a heretic? If I did, I can bring proofs.
What did I call “heresy”? If I did, I can bring proofs.I am always willing to stand by my words with authoritative sources because I am not making anything up on my own rather just pointing to the Torah that we (well, some of us) got at Sinai.
===authoritative sources are not enough.
you have to first understand these sources
plus , answer – properly – how your understanding is not contradicted by :hazal and
your own and whole of klal yisraels accepted halachik behavior.please think about this
I will elaborate on it in a future post.
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.To yankel berel
I don’t understand what you’re asking. Please clarify. I’ll gladly respond.To ujm
There are two answers to your statement. First, contemporary Rabbis are not Tannaim and Amoraim. Second, the Talmud says that the sun revolves around the earth. Do you believe that? Statements made by Chazal are not always to be accepted as is. I’m not qualified to explain how to determine what’s to be taken literally and what isn’t but arriving at the truth requires more than simply regugitating what you heard in Yeshiva or from some Rabbi
To yankel berel
Can you explain your comment about 3.0? I don’t know how to respond to it.
To ujm
Do you accept every statement made be every Rabbi? And if not, how do you decide which Rabbi to trust? Checkmate.
To yankel berel
I’d like to elaborate on your statement that Halachic and Haggadic heresy are totally distinct entities. A Jew who knowingly eats a ham and cheese sandwich on Yom Kippur and/or Pesach is a Kofer according to Halacha. On the other hand, many Rabbis play the ,”heresy” card to fit their agenda. Rabbi Miller immediately comes to mind, but obviously the Friedeger Rebbe also used that tactic. Now, to be Dan these great people Likaf Zchus we can say that they used hyperbole because of what they perceived was a Shas Hadchak The Chametz Chaim famously cited the verse, “Ain Bayis Asher Ain Shom Mes” in recognition of Jews who were going lost to the various”isms” of the times and so we can perhaps justify the Friedeger calling Zionism heresy so that European Jewry would distance itself from it. This said, no rational person in the present day can use that term for those who seek the well-being of the Jews in Israel as well as the country.
The Gemora is correct. Albert Einstein, in his Theory of Relatively, proved that saying the sun resolves around the earth and saying that the earth revolves around the sun, are functionally equivalent and effectively saying the same thing.
Its very simple.
as mentioned
My point is as follows – the words heresy and heretic are used oftentimes , but do not always mean the same thing.
I will list some examples of usage of this word and hope anyone will understand what I mean.
The first usage of the word heresy pertains in an [for lack of better word] hagadic way.
For example Someone who gets angry is reckoned as if he worships avoda zara .
Similar statements are mentioned about s’ one who is haughty .
Or even s’one who invests in his own material success and attributes his success to himself [kochi ve’otsem yadi asu li et hachayil hazeh]
Or anyone who happened to do any avera. Rav chskel levenstein attributed this to a lack of proper emuna i.e. a heresy.
Those are aggadic ‘heresies’.
Said behaviour and attitudes are frowned upon , but those people are still kasher to be edim and their wine is not nesech etc .In other words, their problem has heresy connections, but has not reached the level of halachik heresy.
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Whereas the second type of heresy is the halachik one whichneeds clear parameters and
has clear and dramatic consequences.For example
Someone who professes belief in the unholy trinityor professes belief in pagan g’ds .
or declares himself an atheist
r’l.the consequences are very clear too.
Those halachik heretics forfeited their right to oilam haba.
are passul ledutmarriages and divorces are invalidated if they served as witnesses.
Even many years later.with potential disastrous eternal results for mamzerut .
this type of halachik heresies [/ heretics ] is extremely serious.
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.Somejew and his satmar cohorts are lumping both types of heresies into one big pile.
They rail against Z as if it would be totally equal to messianic xtianity lehavdil which constitutes clear halachik heresy.
The fact is that Orthodoxy as a whole has never taken Z as a halachik heresy.
There is no known orthodox community who will actually invalidate marriages and divorces if witnesses harbor Z beliefs.
But all orthodox communities will do so if witnesses harbor xtian beliefs even if only discovered decades after the facts.
Any honest observer will agree to this stark difference.
The above is in my eyes the most convincing proof that any mention of heresy in connection to Z is only polemical or only meant as agaddik heresy .
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Besides – the second SR , even while subscribing to vy’m , which clearly labels the voters in Israels elections as people who transgress all 3 averot hamurot ,chose to marry his own son , in to a family who is at the forefront of mass performance of said transgressions.
Which he would never do with a family promoting xtianity or atheism …….
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Btw.
The fact is that one could be a bona fide religious zionist nowadays without any agadic heresy either.Notwithstanding all that, I personally think RZ is wrong .
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.I’m just going to put this out there: Lubavitch is still staunchly anti-Zionism. The current Rebbe spoke much more openly against Zionism than the Rebbe Rayatz.
However, since major changes have occurred in the world since the early 1900s, the manner of approaching the issue has changed.
Additionally, all of this is unrelated to the obligation to ensure the absolute safety of the millions of Jews living in Eretz Yisroel—just as it is important to protect the Jewish neighborhoods of Williamsburg, Crown Heights, Flatbush, Lakewood, etc.
This includes even violating Shabbos to fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even an inch of Jewish land—since it begins with land and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
To ujm
The Gemara says that the gestation period of a snake is seven years, but the fact is that it’s between 3 and 9 months. What do you say about that?
To yankel berel
Thanks for clarifying the difference between Halachic and Aggadic Kefirah. You’re correct that people conflate the two.
To Menachem Shmei
I agree with you that the Chabad stance is still anti-Zionist. Years ago I organized a charity event for victims of Israeli terrorism. The Rabbi of the shul is Chabad, but the shul itself was, at the time, MO. I wanted to begin the program by having a Chazan sing Hatikvah. The Rabbi went ballistic that Zionism is Kefirah so I took it out.
To someJew.
You’re making a mistake in labeling all those who support Israel as Zionists. In fact, there are 3 categories. Zionists who may be religious or anti-,religious. anti-Zionists like yourself
But then there are Jews like yours truly who simply care for Acheinu Bes Yisroel including those in Israel. Let’s try to discuss this point instead of engaging in name-calling.To yankel berel
I’d like to add to your list of actual heresies. I submit Rabbi Manis Friedman who stated that because of the long and bitter exile no Jew can be punished no matter what he does.
Menachem Shmei – Someone from Lubavitch put out an entire Sefer several years ago called יהדות ללא פשרות, collected from all of the works of the last Rebbe זי״ע. There is a long chapter on his opposition to Zionism, both the theory and the practice. He was also the most formidable force battling the infamous מיהו יהודי law, during which time he called out many Israeli politicians, including religious ones, in no uncertain terms. (I’m sure you are well aware of this as a Lubavitcher, just mentioning it here for the benefit of the others.) On the other hand, the Rebbe engaged in positive dialog with many Israeli leaders, including some very secular ones, JUST LIKE HE DID WITH EVERYONE ELSE WHO WAS INTERESTED IN DOING SO, and he found ways to their hearts באשר הוא שם, again like he did with everyone. In other words, he totally rejected their השקפה, and in practice he sometimes even fought them far more than ‘anti-Zionists’ ever did, yet he was able to relate to them as people, and fellow Yidden, and to whatever extent possible, to ignite their Pintele Yid. This is something many people need to learn from. Even someone who is not בר הכי with ‘plaitzes’ of the Lubavitcher Rebbe to engage in dialog with people who have krum hashkafos or behavior, doesn’t have to write them off as Yidden or imagine scenarios of how they will die or be ‘dismantled’ ר״ל. Remind me which of the Rebbes said that the way to chase away darkness isn’t with sticks, but with light. (I remember with certainty that the quote comes from Chabad, but I forgot which Rebbe.) That is the real way to defeat ‘Zionism’ (which doesn’t really exist any more in its original form, but for argument’s sake I use the term to refer to the entire gamut of secular krumkeit in Israel.)
Yankel Berel said – The fact is that one could be a bona fide religious zionist nowadays without any agadic heresy either.
Agree with you 100%, although it may depend on the specific flavor of ‘Dati Leumi’ in question. The DL world itself is a broad and colorful spectrum from people who are Chareidi plus in their lifestyle and עבודת השם, but also believe that building settlements on the hills of Shomron will be מקרב the גאולה, to people like Naftali Bennett, who I wouldn’t take לכתחילה as an עד for anything, but not because of the ‘Zionist’ stuff…
However, it is also perfectly possible for someone to be fully observant of Orthodox Judaism, at least outwardly, and still be an אפיקורוס, only based on his krum beliefs or lack thereof. Just to give an easy example: One of the 13 Ikkarim is belief in תחיית המתים. There is no נפקא מינה in day-to-day behavior or observance of other areas of Halacha directly connected to that belief. One could even theoretically believe in שכר ועונש and עולם הבא (in some form other than what our Mesorah says), yet לכל הדעות failure to believe in this particular doctrine (which you may call אגדתא), clearly triggers Halachic consequences and makes a person a bona-fide אפיקורוס who is פסול לעדות etc. There is precedent in Poskim (at least לכתחילה) to avoid taking as an עד someone who clearly denies or is מזלזל in beliefs, minhagim, or aspects of the Mesorah that have been accepted by כלל ישראל, even if he doesn’t technically deny any of the 13 Ikkarim or violate any Halacha.
ujm > The Gemora is correct. Albert Einstein, in his Theory of Relatively,
I agree with ujm. Moschiach is coming. Even before Einstein, the fight was about nothing. Ptolemean astronomy was correct – it predicted events. It is just formulas were a little more complicated than Keppler’s ellipses. Big deal, with computers it doe not really matter. Galileo would have been better off inventing computers.
At the end, any point can be used as the center. As the gemorah says: a person can say that the world was created for him [and can use himself as the center of the world to compute astronomic calculations].
Yaakov Yosef: You would, seriously, take Naftali Bennett, married to an open and proud mechallel Shabbos and lack of taharas hamispacha woman, even b’dieved, as an Eid?
To Menachem Shmei
There’s an obvious question that emerges from your latest post. We know from the Friedeger Rebbe’s letter that he held that all Zionists are Kofrim. And we know that a Kofer has no Cheilek in Olam Habo. You then state that the Rebbe was even more ardently anti-Zionist than his predecessor. This would imply that he also held that all Zionists are Kofrim. However Rabbi Manis Friedman said that no Jew, even the worst sinner imaginable, can be punished. I’ll give you the opportunity to respond before using my calling card.
AAQ – The Lubavitcher Rebbe actually made that exact point using the Theory of Relativity. He also noted how quantum mechanics demolished the notion of determinism, which was the bedrock of science for centuries. Newton’s ‘Laws’, according to modern physics, despite being an accurate way of predicting WHAT USUALLY happens, are not the real REASON WHY they happen. Similar to how we believe that each individual outcome is the result of Hashgacha Pratis, although on the macro level everything seems to more or less follow deterministic ‘laws of nature’.
I wanted to begin the program by having a Chazan sing Hatikvah. The Rabbi went ballistic that Zionism is Kefirah so I took it out.
Correct. Hatikva is an absolute no-no in Chabad. The Rebbe publicly removed his nesius and name from Lubavitch Yeshiva Tomchei Temimim because they used the tune of Hatikva at a dinner in the late 1950s.
Yaakov Yosef A,
Very well said about Chabad’s shita. Notice that I specified that Chabad is anti-Zionism, not necessarily anti-Zionist – Chabad treats (today’s) Zionists as any other Jew who is unfortunately confused in derech haTorah, and must be brought back to proper Yiddishkeit with warmth and love.
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