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ujm – I’m not a Rov or Dayan, so I don’t have to worry about someone’s Kashrus as an עד bedieved. אין הכי נמי, it’s not a poshut shaila. But טהרת המשפחה is not connected to Zionism. There are couples out there who married when they were holding at a lower level of observance, and later one spouse became more frum, and they do keep טהרת המשפחה. There are also couples where both spouses might not fully keep Shabbos, but they both want to keep טהרת המשפחה. At any rate, these are completely private inyanim, and nobody’s business.
Menachem – Notice that I specified that Chabad is anti-Zionism, not necessarily anti-Zionist
Exactly.
Chabad treats (today’s) Zionists as any other Jew who is unfortunately confused in derech haTorah
A lot of the quotes bandied around by hotheads looking to be mattir vildeh shtick in the name of ‘fighting Zionism’ date back to a tekufah when many of the Zionists/Maskilim were real hard-core שנה ופירש אפיקורסים. Among people who self-identify as ‘Zionists’, that type doesn’t exist anymore, and neither does the hetter to shame them.
Yaakov Yosef: It most certainly is every Jews business. Mrs. Bennett is a public Sabbath desecrater and a public Kashrus desecrater and a public desecrater of everything holy and obligatory.
Public activity is every Jew’s business.
ujm – That is not your business.
There is something seriously wrong with you, HaKatan and somejewiknow.
ujm :
Yaakov Yosef: You would, seriously, take Naftali Bennett, married to an open and proud mechallel Shabbos and lack of taharas hamispacha woman, even b’dieved, as an Eid?
—————————I see that many people are not ‘getting it’ .
The point of paslut for edut re divorce because of Z ,which I mentioned
is only considering the Z aspect ,
not the question of the persons general kiyum hamitsvot , which coud be lacking and be a separate and distinct cause of its own for paslut le’edut.
I want davka to isolate the problem of Z ideology …
is the Z ideology , on its own , enough cause to halachically invalidate an otherwise valid person ?
Think the answer is a clear no.
As opposed to the other real heresies where an otherwise fully frum believer in ‘j’ , would definitely be an invalid ed,
by sole virtue of adhering to that belief.
So whether Naftalie B does or does not adhere to taharat hamishpacha, seems totally irrelevant to this discussion.
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.To the group
True to form Menachem Shmei has not answered my question. I’ll repeat it. He correctly stated that the Rebbe was stridently anti-Zionist. The question is, “So what?” According to Rabbi Manis Friedman who presumably follows the Rebbe’s shitah no Jew can be punished. So even if the Rebbe held that Zionism is Kefirah there would be no consequences. It’s like the Torah saying that if one dies x, y, or z he gets Kareis. So according to Chabad Kareis doesn’t apply today. Checkmate.
To ujm
I’ll repeat my question, “Who do follow if two reliable Rabbis take opposing positions?” Obviously you choose the one you want. Along the same line I can reject what Rabbi Gifter and the Friedeger said even though I respect each of them. Checkmate.
To the groupThere are two types of posters toon YWN. One who blindly spouts whatever he heard from his Rabbi and the other who makes up his own mind based on discussions with his mentors. Ujm is a tropical brain -dead Yeshivite incapable of having an honest dialogue with someone who has a different point of view.
ZSK — Not only is it my business, but it is the business of every Jew. Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh L’Zeh includes the spiritual beings of every other Jew; not just their physical beings.
> is that the ideology called “Zionism” is certainly kefira.
I think multiple people answered that what was anti-religious Zionism 100 years ago does not exist today. There is just nothing to argue then.
> escape exile through derech hateva “histadlis”
Not everyone is holding at high level of religiosity as you are. Shmuel was afraid to travel al pi Hashem being afraid of Saul and Hashem proposed him a way to lie his way through. Tanach and Gemora are full of people who were dealing with the matzav by fighting, negotiating, bribing, spying – and yes, praying too. So, feel free to stay at your madregah, but then
(1) do not expect others to subsidize your madregah,
(2) behave towards others according to the level you expect Hashem to grant you. Somehow, I see a lot of non-politeness coming from your camp. Satmar Rebbe was known for his sense of humor, maybe at least show that.@ SomeJew
You are very fond of quoting the Raavid in Hilchos Teshuva.
Either you don’t understand the Raavid or you don’t understand what you, yourself are writing. If Zionism is “obviously” Kfira / A”Z as you claim then the Raavid’s psak doesn’t help. The Raavid is davka talking about an Iker that he and the Rambam both agree is not obvious to everyone.
@ UJM
Are you looking into a Shiduch with the Bennet kids? Is that why you are interested in her shmira of Taharas Mishpacha?
Maybe review the Hazon Ish’s psak re: the tinok sh’nishba status of Hilonim.
A] You have not answered my question.
Shulhan Aruch permits , no mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Thats not an agada sefer . [without a specific source – just maharal – without the possibility to look it up]
That is THE ultimate halacha sefer for all klal yisrael for the last 500 years.
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An excellent proof by the way[according to you
– you claimed that it is prohibited to fight even when it is possible to save lives]
– from this shulchan aruch 329 , like the shut avnei nezer that the 3 shavu’ot are not binding lehalacha.
and clearly supported by the total omission of any issur of 3 shavu’ot , in yad halacha [leharambam] , tur and shulchan aruch.
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B] There was a transport to Auschwitz, called the twentieth transport with an estimated one thousand innocent jews boxed in locked animal wagons.
there was one yid called lifshits who , together with two friends , simulated a red light , got the train to stop , opened fire at the german soldiers stationed at the end of the train , and under cover of fire opened the doors and helped many of these unfortunates escape.
Some of the escapees made it through the war and survived.
This lifshits was a year later, caught by the germans and executed as a member of the resistance.
My question to somejew – did lifshits transgress the 3 shavu’ot ?
He fought against the germans .
He did not run away .
He did not give presents.
He shot at and injured german soldiers.
According to your definition , he transgressed the 3 shavu’ot at that given time ….. . Correct or not ?
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.Somejew clearly lumped Z together with Jews for j .
There is a huge difference between those 2 .
Belief in Jews for j is classified as halachik kfira, whereas
belief in Z is definitely not.
Huge and dramatic difference .
Divorce with fully frum Jews for j as edut
renders the resulting kids into mamzerim gmurim assur lavo bakahal lanetsach
whereas divorce with fully frum Z as edut
leaves the resulting children as ksheirei yichus lemehadrin,
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.A] It is clear to any orthodox community that even a fully meizid adherent to Z and simultaneously fully frum yehudi, ‘s
edut for a divorce or marriage is not invalidated because of his allegiance to Z .
So
per force – we can conclude that Z is halachically not heresy.
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B] Can somejew pinpoint which of the 13 ikarim Z is contradicting and how so ?
Other than quotes by rabanim who sought to distance their flock from Z because of all the detrimental influence Z had.
To HaKatan, UJM, and friends. – Perhaps you should now do what the Divrei Yoel זי״ע did during the Six Day War (which he wrote a whole Sefer opposing) and say Tehillim בדמעות שליש for the safety of the millions of Yiddishe Neshamos who reside here. Set aside for now חקירות about Zionists etc. If Haifa and Bnei Brak were hit in the same missile barrage, that should tell you something… Wake up and get the message.
qwerty613 – The Chazon Ish (who’s Litvish credentials can’t be challenged) said basically the same thing. Our job is to be Mekarev Yidden, not to judge them. The Ribbono Shel Olam already has one Satan whose job it is to accuse people for their aveiros. There is no need to volunteer to be his assistant. That (according to the Zohar, brought by the Chofetz Chaim) is the deeper meaning of the posuk-לא תשא שמע שוא meaning loshon hara, in order that – אל תשת ידך עם רשע not to assist the רשע הידוע, i.e. the Satan – להיות עד חמס, because on his own he is only one עד and by ‘joining’ him there is now a full eidus ח״ו. PLEASE, NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THESE STUPID DEBATES. Do it as a זכות for the millions of Yidden in serious danger now.
To Yaakov Yosef
I respect your point of view. In fact I was in Shul this past Shabbos and the Rabbi pleaded with us not to speak any Loshon Hora and so I understand the gravity of the subject. This said Rabbi Friedman’s Kefirah can’t be ignored. There is only so far that you can play the Tinok Shenishba card. Several months ago I had an argument on VIN with this liar who tried to convince me that Alan Dershowitz was a Tinok Shenishba despite the fact that he knowingly walked away from Judaism at 29. Hashem s seal is Emes. When Rabbi Friedman stated that one can eat a pork sandwich on Yom Kippur and nothing will happen to him that’s beyond the pale. And don’t play the Litvish game. I’m a Chossid on both sides although now my Hashkahfa is closer to Litvish. Be modeh on the Emes. Let’s discuss this further. If you make valid points I’ll acknowledge them.
To somejewiknow,
Can you define Zionism?
qwerty613 – I don’t know about what Rabbi Friedman said. To be honest, this is the first I’ve heard of this parshah. He is however alive B”H, and can be reached by email or phone, so you could ask him himself what’s pshat in his statement. If you or someone who reads your posts has a practical נפקא מינה whether you can be סומך on Rabbi Friedman’s ehrlichkeit for something נוגע למעשה, then there may be a תועלת to this discussion, otherwise, not so much. Be that as it may, my comment was mainly directed at the incessant anti-Zionist vs. Zionist debates that fill this ‘coffee room’, between people who don’t even live here. Forgive me if I was harsh, but the sound of ballistic missiles with 1500 pound warheads does wonders for putting priorities in perspective…
To somejewiknow
I thank you for your rapid response to my question. That’s menschlich something that Shmei and certain others know nothing about. This said your answer was disingenuous. I’ll accept the first part but not the second and I’ll explain. Let’s examine the first part. Yes Zionism was a secular anti-Torah movement. Well, it logically follows that those who are not secular nor anti-Torah are not Zionists. This excludes all the people you are railing against including yours truly. You then throw in that Zionism today means anyone who wants the State of Israel to exist. That’s not a definition. It’s your biased opinion. I’ll offer a Moshol. Rabbi Miller said that anyone with a TV in his house has no Cheilek in Olam Habo. He then “proves” it. The Mishna in Cheilek says that those who study Seforim Chitzonim have no Cheilek in Olam Habo and Rabbi Miller defines Seforim Chitzonim as TV. So he gave a definition to fit his opinion. That’s called self serving Torah and it’s garbage and that’s exactly what you’re presenting. According to the second half of your definition one must wish for the destruction of the State of Israel
So it follows that you Daven that the Iranian bombs kill as many “sonei Yisrael” as possible. Am I right?YYA> he Chazon Ish (who’s Litvish credentials can’t be challenged) said basically the same thing. Our job is to be Mekarev Yidden, not to judge them
A student asked Chazon Ish whether he is allowed to say kiddush in front of his parents (kibutznikim, and the mother not dressed appropriately). To what Chazon Ish replied: and you found a place for chumros when you are in front of your parents?
qwerty > I was in Shul this past Shabbos and the Rabbi pleaded with us not to speak any Loshon Hora and so I understand the gravity of the subject.
not about people you are talking, but I am wondering whether we are violating halocha by Chofetz Chaim not to praise someone who is not a complete tzaddik in public because you are triggering (my words, not his 🙂 someone to start saying negative things.
Yaakov Yosef A: Perhaps you shouldn’t assume that we don’t already do exactly that and always have been doing exactly that.
some> The kefira of zionism has nothing to do with it being “anti-religious”… this is explicit in the first paragraph of the subject of this post
I hear your point, but I think our statements that things changed still stand. The Rebbe’s first par seems to have two relevant statements:
(1) relying on ourselves (2) using force to leave exile.(1) is tied to being religious. Observant Jews acknowledge Hashem’s gifts and our limited role within it. At least, they should. If someone does not, he should be shown sefarim to read. You may project all kind of bad motives to RZ, but at minimum, we can say that RZ minimized this problem comparing with anti-RZ.
(2) is the past problem. Israel exists right now. If your position is correct, then presumably Jews were or will be punished for that in some way. Are we to “do teshuva” and leave EY in mass? any pre-20th century sources discussing what to do after “3 shevuos” are violated? For every mitzva, we usually have a warning, a punishment, and a way to do teshuva (when possible). Please bring these halochos and let’s discuss.
Notice that this is catch-22 – as leaving EY involves a lot of halachik problems, so given problems in two alternatives, you probably should sit and do nothing. And, again, why did Chazon Ish and everybody else were citizens of Israel and did not leave?
As to current situation, Israel is not involved in wars of conquest, but in defensive wars. So, it has nothing to do with any of your shevuos.
some > I’m not claiming any levels. this discussion is about basics of being a yid and claiming membership in klal yisorel.
Minyanim at the kosel usually include all kind of yidden davening together. according to you, a “true charedi” would not be able to daven with all these other Jews. Mahbe all those charedim at the kosel not holding by your opinion? So, your choice is to either acknowledge that or put those charedim in the same cherem you put all non-charedim.
> . I’m sorry you zionism has taken you so far off
I do not consdier myself a zionist, so please take me off your misheberach list.> if you are attacking me personally here, please point out anywhere I have been anything but polite.
I did not try to trace specific personality. I just see the small cluster of anti-Z posters having very specific characteristics here – they do not bring a gut vort or a gut joke, or ask a good question. All quotes are about condemnation of Z. There is rarely concern about other Yidden, suggestions to say tehilim (as mentioned above – contrary to Satmar Rebbe). In short, there are many posters who bring some story and I, and maybe others, say – I’ve learned something or I’d like to emulate something this poster did. For example, there are chabad posters who defend positions that I find untenable, but I admire their passion in helping other Yidden and in focusing their learning on their Rebbe’s writings.
To Yaakov Yosef A
I don’t have to ask him if he’s a Kofer. There’s a video in which he states that because of the long exile no Jew can be punished no matter what he does. You can see the video by going to a site called Musings of a Litvish Yid. The video will immediately come up. Those on YWN know that I don’t make unsubstantiated claims. So it’s no my opinion that he’s a Kofer. Menachem Shmei knows it very well and that’s why he’s ducking my questions. The Mitzvah to be Dan Likaf Zchus only applies when there’s a Sofek.
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