January 7, 2013 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #918412
“The line “uniform of hashems army” makes me barf”
The medrash says that one of the zchusim that Klal Yisroel had in leaving mitzrayim is that they dressed as Yidden not Mitzrim.
The medrash also says the the reason why Moshe wasnt zoche to be buried in EY is because when he appeared to the daughters of Yisro in Mindyan he appeared as an ish Mitzri to them. I.e. he dressed as a Mitzri. Im sure there’s more. On the topic. You can barf at Medrashim all you want…January 7, 2013 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #918413Yamoos7123Member
A chup is not so bad, it doesn’t necessarily show anything about the midos of the bachur. Why is everyone making such a big deal out of this?????January 7, 2013 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #918414locaMember
I..dont..even..understand…know…where to start!
HAIR ON ONES HEAD IS JEWISH. IT IS JEWISH TO WEAR HAIR ON ONES HEAD.
Can someone else step in here please?January 8, 2013 12:05 am at 12:05 am #918415
Brony-what is Nosson Stein’s What does it mean three and eight in front?January 8, 2013 12:28 am at 12:28 am #918416
I wasn’t referring specifically to hair but a general way of appearing and presenting oneself in my response to apashatayid.January 8, 2013 12:29 am at 12:29 am #918417
Btw when I was a teenager I had a chup and anyone who is honest will tell you its because you want to look “good” “cool” or just not yeshivish.January 8, 2013 12:39 am at 12:39 am #918418
WIY – I think what loca is trying to say is that you are completely missing the point of the argument. Nobody is denying the well known midrashim you referenced. Nobody here would say one should dress or grow their hair however they want. The point of contention is over the rediculous degree of specificity to which some Jewish communities have defined what is considered “Jewish enough,” and the overly judgmental and harsh manner in which those members of Klall Yisrael who do not exactly fit that mold are excluded from said communities; as if these members of Klall Yisrael were transgressing over serious violations.January 8, 2013 1:03 am at 1:03 am #918419groisakishkaMember
The medrash also says the the reason why Moshe wasnt zoche to be buried in EY is because when he appeared to the daughters of Yisro in Mindyan he appeared as an ish Mitzri to them. I.e. he dressed as a Mitzri. Im sure there’s more. On the topic. You can barf at Medrashim all you want..”
the chasam sofer has a shverra time with that and says that it was Moishe who infuenced the dress of the mitzrim, not the other way around (pashuta pshat)January 8, 2013 1:14 am at 1:14 am #918420KovodHabriyosMember
There is nothing rediculous about the degree of specificity. The Gemorah in Sanhedrin says that if Jews wear a specific color shoelace (!!) we should not deviate from it.
Now that is specificity.January 8, 2013 4:58 am at 4:58 am #918421
Source, please?January 8, 2013 5:13 am at 5:13 am #918424
The Gemara is in Sanhedrin 74 a-b however the Gemara there doesn’t say exactly what KH says it does. It says that bishaas shmad a Jew may not change even the color of his shoe laces (if there’s an inherent reason why Jews wear that color be it for modesty…) even if they will kill him. Ayyin sham.January 8, 2013 11:03 am at 11:03 am #918425KovodHabriyosMember
WIY is correct. And that Gemorah is relevant to this discussion. Because it shows us that Jews can have even a specific color shoelace that is what Jews wear.January 8, 2013 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #918426
Today there is no “Jewish Clothing”
If you are chassidish a Streimel and a Becasher would be part of the clothing, If you are Ashkenzic Yeshivish a Black Hat would be part of the dress, if you are Sephardic whatever Rav Ovadiah Yosef wears (I dont think Sephardim wear black, they think its bad luck) I dont know what his hat is calledJanuary 8, 2013 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #918427
Chacham Ovadia Yosef wears a regular black hat, as do all Sefardim.
The clothing he wears to his drashos and simchos is the clothing that the sephardic rishon letzion in Eretz Yisroel wears.January 8, 2013 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #918428
You brilliantly managed to contradict yourself. Bravo.
It seems that most groups of frum Jews have a dress code. Specifically the Chassidim and Yeshivish. The idea is not to blend with the non Jews. We attempt to look different to remind ourselves and them that we aren’t one people and we can’t mix and blend.January 8, 2013 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #918429
A haircut for the most part doesnt stand out unless you have green hair with a Mohawk.
The Peyos like the Chassidim wear does stand out
I stand slightly corrected on Rav Ovadiah Yosef, I looked at some pictures and it is a Black hat, but its not the same hat worn in Yehsivas. It seems similar to a hat the Famous Rambam Pictures haveJanuary 8, 2013 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #918431
Thank you WIY, I assumed the gemara was being taken out of context and that’s why I asked for a source. I haven’t had the chance to look it up myself, but if what you are saying is true, then that’s actually an implication that during a non-shaas-hashmad one MAY in fact deviate from the customary dress of the Jewish tzibur; at least to the point of wearing different colored shoelaces. Like zahavasdad pointed out though, today there is no strictly Jewish dress, except perhaps if you are living in a Chassidish community. Most Jews buy their clothes in stores that sell to non-Jews as well. Regardless, the Gemara never identifies hairstyle to be considered dress anyway. Keep in mind, Shimshon hagibor my have had a chup…January 8, 2013 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #918432
“but its not the same hat worn in Yehsivas. It seems similar to a hat the Famous Rambam Pictures have”
Actually, your dead wrong (over and over).
Again, Chacham Ovadia Yosef along with all Sefardim wear REGULAR black hats that are worn by all Yeshiva bochrim and avrechim in Eretz Yisroel.
He wears the clothing that the Sephardic “Rishon Letzion” wear only by his drashos, simchas, and when he appears in public. When he davens he wears a regular black hat like any other Rosh Yeshiva. His children wear the same hat as he does.January 8, 2013 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #918433
Photo of Aryeh Deri and Eli Yishai wearing regular black hatsJanuary 8, 2013 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #918436
Rav Shlomo Amar wearing “Yeshiva hat”
Rav Shlomo Amar wearing (blue brimless) Rishon Lezion uniform hat (same as Chachm Ovadia)
Rav Bakshi Doron wearing “Yeshiva hat”
Rav Bakshi Doron wearing (blue brimless) Rishon Lezion uniform hat (same as Chachm Ovadia)January 8, 2013 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #918437PatriMember
Curiosity: You completely missed the point, either intentionally or unintentionally, of that gemora in Sanhedrin. The gemora clearly demonstrates that yidden have a unique yiddishe way of dress. And that unique yiddishe style of dress can go down to being as specific as a shoelace color. Now the gemora then goes on to say that during a shas shmad if the goyim threaten your life if you don’t stop wearing “the Jewish shoelace color” then you are obligated to be prepared to die rather than change from wearing the Jewish shoelace color. But that doesn’t change the gemora’s starting basis that even during normal times (with no shas shmad) there can be such a thing as a specific shoelace color that is “The Jewish” form of dress.
Oh, and great point you made associating a nazir with a chup.January 8, 2013 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #918438
Patri, I said I didn’t have a chance to look up the Gemara, I was just going off of what WIY said. The comment about Shimshon was tongue in cheek… sorry that wasn’t clear.January 8, 2013 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #918439
I think the Tzad Hashaveh from this thread is that a Jew should definitely avoid dressing “fashionably” and should totally ignore what is the in style and should wear basic simple clothing that looks presentable. So I guess everyone wearing those gay looking tight pants have to go throw them out now…January 8, 2013 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #918440apushatayidParticipant
WIY. You completely missed my point, but I wont belabor it.January 8, 2013 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #918441
I have seen yeshiva guys dressing fashionably before-nice shoes, nice pants, nice glasses, etc.January 8, 2013 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #918442groisakishkaMember
define nice pantsJanuary 8, 2013 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #918443
Shpitz black pants that fit well-sometime tight but not too tightJanuary 9, 2013 2:27 am at 2:27 am #918444BronyParticipant
Leopard print. The tighter the better.January 9, 2013 3:55 am at 3:55 am #918445JstAthoughtMember
GUYS STOP IT!!!!! UR KILLING ME!!!!!!January 9, 2013 3:56 am at 3:56 am #918446locaMember
EwJanuary 9, 2013 11:46 am at 11:46 am #918447menucha12Member
ha,welcome back brony.January 9, 2013 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #918448anon1m0usParticipant
Patri: I think you misunderstood the Gemorah in Sanhadrin. There was clothing that was specifically for Jews; it was a yellow badge, long undergarments, or wear clothing that were black or dark blue color; and all this was not in the time of Shmad that the goyim instituted to keep Jews separate ( a broacha in disguise). Under Muslim rule, women had to wear a black and a red shoe, and each woman had to have a small brass bell on her neck or shoe. These all became distinctive Jewish clothing over time, like the shtraimel today. In the time of Shmad, even these clothing one cannot change once they become a levush of a Jew. The Rambam (Hilchos Avodah Zarah 11:1): specifically states that the clothing referred to in the gemorah are clothing specifically for goyim; like you had in the olden days. Today, where there is no real distinction between a Jews clothing and a Goy (I am not talking about rednecks or bikers guys), I do not think you can argue, based on that gemorah, that there is no issur of dressing fashionably. Maybe be a waste of money and an issur of Baal Tashchus of well earned money:)January 9, 2013 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #918449
What is the issue with semi-tight pants, but not super tight, if they fit well?January 9, 2013 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #918450
Tight clothing is meant to accentuate the body.January 9, 2013 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #918451
What about Khaki pants and a normal shirt with a collar and 3 buttons near the neckJanuary 9, 2013 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #918452PatriMember
anon1m0us: Please read the gemora. It clearly demonstrates that something as minor as the color of a shoelace can define Jewish clothing. And as the gemora says, the Jewish clothing were for reasons of Jewish modesty as well as for us to consciously choose to seperate ourselves from the Gentiles.
Yes, there is disticntive Jewish clothing and dress code today as there has been throughout Jewish history from the time we were in Eretz Mitzrayim.January 9, 2013 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #918453
If a Yeshivish person would go into an Amish area and hang with the Amish, Other than the Musctache it might be hard to tell the 2 apartJanuary 9, 2013 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #918454
I didnt mean tight-just meant not baggyJanuary 9, 2013 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #918455
Patri, I just looked up the Gemara. It says one should not be over a “mitzvah kallah” at a time of shmad. The Gemara then says a mitzvah kallah is even changing the color of the shoelace. If you look up the Tur Shulchan Aruch that is referenced you can find the Beis Yosef that quotes the Rif that says that it refers to the goyim at the time who used to wear red shoelaces, while Jews had black shoelaces. The Beis Yosef also quotes a Maharik that explains the Rif chose the color red specifically to teach us that this is only applicable when there is a “tzad Yahadus badavar” because Jews wouldn’t wear red “mitzad tzniyus” – a practice that still commonly exists today. It would thereby imply that the Rif wouldn’t have defined a “stam minhag be’alma” that has no “tzad Yahadus badavar” to be a “mitzvah kallah,” otherwise he wouldn’t have limited the case to the color red. It’s not the color of the shoelace specifically that’s significant, it’s having to wear the color red. That would imply that there is no inyan of even a mitzvah kallah by minhagim of dress that are not inherently a transgression over tzniyus or another aspect of Yahadus. I’m not a posek, but it seems to me that the type of Yarmulka someone has or the way they wear their hair is not even a mitzvah kallah where the minhag has no basis in objective Yahadus, and is rather just “the way most frum people do things.” I would even argue that since there is no one single minhag amongst klall Yisrael as to how to wear your hair, that it wouldn’t even qualify as a “stam minhag be’alma.” According to the Beis Yosef, there may indeed be an inyan of mitzvah kalla by tight pants because it’s a matter of tzniyus.January 9, 2013 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #918456
There are a number of points I’d like to bring up about the fit of pants. 1)There are pants styles today which are extremely tight. One might even say non-tznius for its accentuation of the body. 2) The classic loose fit of dress pants today, is a relatively new style, than only came about in the 80’s and 90’s with the “sack suit” before this, most dress pants were much slimmer and actually followed the leg line. They were NOT skin tight or drastically accentuated certain areas of the body. But one could be assured that someone had a leg underneath and not two little kids holding you up. 3) The loose flowy pants most yeshivish guys wear today, do not look put together. They looked about as presentably dressed as a cheap waiter.
There is a wonderful medium, and it is definitely closer to today’s more fashionable styles.January 9, 2013 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #918457frummy in the tummyParticipant
haha, obstacle illusion, great user name!January 9, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #918458takahmamashParticipant
If a Yeshivish person would go into an Amish area and hang with the Amish, Other than the Musctache it might be hard to tell the 2 apart.
Nah, the Amish could never get their kids into a real yeshivish place, they only wear straw hats!January 9, 2013 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #918459
Thank you, FITT.January 9, 2013 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #918460
ObstacleIllusion-I hear what u said-the styles have changed and that is pretty much what everyone is wearing now.January 9, 2013 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #918461ThePurpleOneMember
theres NOTHING wrong with looking normal and having a chup w hair in the front!!! its ways more normaler and its a mitzva to look respectable. i have two older brothers and one has a chup and one doesnt and their looks do nooot compare!! it helps for kiruv also i ur not bald… and kiruv is saving lifes (siritual ones!!)its pikuach nefesh kkkk???January 9, 2013 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #918462
OK, seriously? A chup is just bangs lifted off the forehead. Not even talking Bieber length here, just a little something extra.
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