September 19, 2010 2:34 am at 2:34 am #696827aries2756Participant
Sacrilige, you are right. Young men need to know how to tell their wives, in a nice way, that too much hair is showing, their sleeves are a little too short, the skirt is a little too tight, etc.
While a young women is single it is the parents responsibility, once she is married it is the husband’s responsibility and if he doesn’t say something from day one, he won’t say anything later either.
During sheva brochos I called my son into my room and told him something regarding his new wife. He said “you tell her” I said it was not my place as the “shviger” to tell her it was his place. So he said her mother should tell her. I said her mother isn’t here and now that she is married I don’t think her mother will tell her. It is up to him to tell her. He didn’t. Well the way it started is the way it continued. My other son ranted and had a fit about it and why I don’t do anything about it.
A few years later he got married and during sheva brochos I called him into my room and told him the same thing about HIS wife. He said “you tell her” and there we went round two. So I called him a hypocrite. When it came to your brother and his wive you had so much to say on the subject but now that it is your wife you are a chicken to say anything? You are a hypocrite. He ran to my husband and told him that I called him a hypocrite. My husband asked why I did and he told him. So my husband said “I agree you are a hypocrite, you with your black velvet yarmulka and your tzizis hanging from your belt.”
And so it goes, I told my son-in-law to say something to my daughter. He said “I’m not telling her you tell her”, I said I already told her and she said “I have a husband”. He said “its not my place to tell her”. OH YES IT IS!September 19, 2010 10:53 am at 10:53 am #696828yael.eParticipant
women definitely dress for other women. there is so much social pressure to dress well and be in style.
then there is the matter of convenience – finding clothes that fit, and the price is right etc., too bad if its a drop off from the rules of tznius for whatever reason. it takes inner strength to ‘say no’, which many girls don’t have, or care to develop.
I like the sewing idea. If it would be easy to fix things, many people would do that.
aries2756 – you are so right than should men tell their wives. how many women will say – but my husband likes me to wear (fill in the blank). women instinctively (whether they will admit it or not) want their husband’s approval. some just use their husbands as a heter – if he doesn’t object, it must be fine. most husbands are subjective about their own wives.September 19, 2010 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #696829yeshivaguy1Participant
from reading some of the posts here and from speaking to my sisters in bais yaakov I get the impression that many (and in very yeshivish communities most) of the high school girls have no idea about the inherent attraction men have to them. Even those who have some clue, have it in their head as some vague idea and not as the real pressing thing it is to men. Because of their lack of exposure to secular media and because they dont mingle with guys socially (which is a great thing) they are unaware of these things. I read one of the comments here that said that girls were viewing negiah as a chumra. If they had any clue about what their touch can do to a guy they would be much more careful. Now the only way for them to fully realize the power of attraction they have is to have some real life experiences we dont want them to have. however acc to my sisters they dont even tell the girls openly in bais yaakov. I am wondering if a girl had a basic idea that by wearing that sweater that is a little too tight she is causing a lot of yetzer hara issues maybe she would think twice rather than just thinking whats the big deal if I bend the rules here and there whats going to happen.September 19, 2010 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #696831WIYMember
Except for the most yeshivish or should I say sheltered families most girls are familiar with what happens to guys when girls look “too good.”
However it could be that its just not on their minds and as you say its at the back of their minds and they don’t actively think about it.
I don’t know what they teach in bais yakov but if they don’t explain what happens to men then they are wasting their time. From what I know of the female psyche women for the most part have no use or interest in halachic discussions. Women like practical not theoretical. If you talk to them practically and explain what happens when you dress such and such ways I think they will appreciate the message a lot more.
If any women agree please chime in.September 19, 2010 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #696832SacrilegeMember
yg1 – Im not sure that is entirely true. I went to probably what is one of the most strictest/chumra pushing BY in the tri-state area and we were very aware what we could do to guys whith the way we dresses, maybe your sisters are very sheltered (more power to them)
I have also heard on more occassions than I care to think about, girls saying, “Well, if the boys dont like it they dont hafta look…”
Also, like I mentioned before I dont think the girls that are IN BY are the ones dressing for the guys, I think the problem starts once they leave school…September 19, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #696833
Disclaimer: I’m from BY and I love tznius.
Re not being aware of boys: Until I started dating I had no idea that clothes had any effect on boys.I don’t have older brothers and in BY no one even mentioned Shomer Negiah.
I knew it was theoretically true that the reason we kept tznius, was so that boys shouldn’t do aveiros, but practically speaking this meant nothing to me. So the temptation came as a shock.
Fortunately I understood it and was able to deal with it. But I wish we were taught to value ourselves more. I now work in a non-orthodox environment and every day I understand tznius more and more. I think that our boys respect their wives more, and are more likely to commit to marriage, so we are not taken advantage of, and that our innocence and focus on the spiritual aspect of marriage is a beautiful thing. If only all my friends appreciated what we have.September 19, 2010 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #696834
There’s a great book that may not be appropriate for all girls, but is good if you’re in the outside world and struggling with modesty. This book helped me more than all the other tznius books I read (except Oz Vhadar Lvusha which I liked for its hashkafic strength)
It’s called “Doesn’t Anyone Blush Anymore?” by Manis Friedman, and it’s very good for being able to appreciate and explain tznius to people who are not from a frum background.September 19, 2010 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #696835mybatMember
Most girls do not understand what happens to a male when they look too good. If they would understand, most would be more than happy to comply. (BYs do NOT explain anything about how a mans mind works)September 20, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #696836
“(BYs do NOT explain anything about how a mans mind works)”
nor should they. its not the ikkar. hatznea leches has nothing to do with the people around you.September 20, 2010 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #696837
Totally off the topic, but I couldnt let this comment pass without commenting.
“kindheartedness is very appropriate but not legislated by law unlike tznius, hence tznius clearly being more important.”
There are a number of mitzvos, both asai and lo saseh that involve interpersonal relationship. There are many halachos surrounding these mitzvos.
Veahavta leireacha kamocha
Veahavta es hager
Lo Sonu ish es amiso
to name a few.
They may get lost in the shuffle of everyday life but they are still among the taryag mitzvos. As for what is more important, I will leave that judgement call to the one who gave us the taryag mitzvos to fulfill.September 20, 2010 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #696838
APY, I respectfully disagree with you. Hatznea leches is subject to interpretation. What one person finds tzanua, another may not. There are certain arbitrary rules upon which any clear-thinking person can recognize tznius or its lack thereof. But the fact of the matter is that MOST guys in the modern world of today, will not think twice about the exposure of a girl’s elbow, though by our own standards that might be considered by many as not tzanua.
There is an old Gershwin song that states, “In days of old a glimpse of stocking, was looked at as rather shocking, now Heaven knows – anything goes.” This was written about a time when women by our standards today might look tzanuos, but were considered not to be because their ankles were showing.
Certain aspects of tznius do not ever change with the times, but many attitudes about what constitutes modest attire, do. There are people who believe that even showing a little of the skin above the wrist is not proper, or that any color other than black, is inappropriate. That has very much to do with the subjectivity of the people around us.September 20, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #696839HelpfulMember
Elbows and above are halachic pritzus. End of discussion.September 20, 2010 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #696840
Oomis. All I wrote is “hatznea leches has nothing to do with the people around you.” Meaning it is about me, not about you. What about that line do you disagree with?September 20, 2010 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #696841
Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, APY. I took it to mean that you need to be objectively tzanua in your life, because the people around you have very subjective conceptualizations of what tznius means. You were saying that BY girls should not have explained to them the workings of a man’s mind because it is not the ikkar. I believe it IS ikkar and there SHOULD be plain speaking to girls upon whom you want to impress those concepts. They SHOULD understand that Hashem designed men to have specific physiological responses to visual stimuli, and by them dressing in a certain way, they are encouraging those responses inappropriately (as opposed to when they are married to the man and not in niddah). I was disagreeing more with the idea that they should remain in the dark about thee things. It is the equivalent of “Because I said so!” and that does not fly with girls old enough to be getting married.September 20, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #696842
What I meant was. Hatznea Leches is between me and hashem. not between me and you.September 20, 2010 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #696843Ben TorahParticipant
No, they should not be explicit in what they teach.September 20, 2010 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #696844
Mybat. I’m not sure I understand the implication of teaching that to them.
When I was in camp guys used to run around without shirts (usually just a pair of their on their backs). At first they were told “its not proper to go around dressed that way”. They counter argued “but its just guys”. finally it was explained that a yid doesnt run around without a shirt, no matter who is around. its not your classic “tznius” issue. It is an issue of what is proper. If girls should dress a certain way, it is not relevant what the effect is on males. if it appropriate to dress a certain way, it is not appropriate. Would it be proper for a BY girl to dress like lady gaga if only women were around?September 20, 2010 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #696845WIYMember
Tznius applies to boys and girls. Boys also have an issue of Hatneia Leches I’m Elokecha. The point is that if a person realizes Hashem sees them wherever they go and they are always in Hashems presence then people would dress and act differently.September 20, 2010 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #696846HaQerMember
Oomis said: You were saying that BY girls should not have explained to them the workings of a man’s mind because it is not the ikkar. I believe it IS ikkar and there SHOULD be plain speaking to girls upon whom you want to impress those concepts.
Technically it is probably not the Ikkar. The ikkar is to be tzanua in front of Hashem, v’hatzneah leches im elokecha. BUT, the reality is that it is not so easy to feel Hashem’s presence in our every day lives, etc and therefore we need reasons for mitzvos.
The fact that the way a woman dresses will cause certain reactions in men should be taught to the girls so that they understand what they are doing so that when pure yiras shamayim isn’t enough to deter them from dressing a certain way, perhaps the physical reactions that they are causing will.
I addition, even women who are dressed appropriately still shouldn’t be hanging around where there are men, for instance they shouldn’t be hanging out in front of the shul as the men are leaving no matter how appropriately they are dressed because even when dressed tzanua they can cause hirhurim. This knowledge is probably the best way to get them to change their ways, because they don’t realize at all what they are doing, they don’t think they are doing anything wrong, there is no clear cut halacha that says not to hang out in front of the shul, they have to apply seichel to figure it out and for this they need to know what it is that they are causing – even the married woman who have some idea of what goes on in a man’s mind does not understand completely or they tend to forget, to push it to the back of their mind.September 20, 2010 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #696847
WIY. Are you disagreeing with a point I made?September 20, 2010 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #696848
What I meant was. Hatznea Leches is between me and Hashem. not between me and you”
I totally agree then, but the fact is that the people who surround us might have a different notion about that.September 20, 2010 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #696849
“The fact that the way a woman dresses will cause certain reactions in men should be taught to the girls so that they understand what they are doing so that when pure yiras shamayim isn’t enough to deter them from dressing a certain way, perhaps the physical reactions that they are causing will”
THANK YOU! That is what I meant.September 20, 2010 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #696850
Oomis and HaQer – exactly.
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