Coincidence at the bullfight?

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Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)
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  • #617962

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    Last Friday hundreds of thousands of Yidden learning the daf learned the halacha of a “shor h’atztablan”: an oxbull which is trained to fight in the arena which kills a person does not get killed.

    In Sunday’s paper the following was reported: On Shabbos, in Spain, for the first time in over twenty seven years, and millions of bullfights, a bull actually killed the matador. Normally, at the end of a match the bull is killed. However by custom, when the bull “wins” they let the bull live.

    Is it possible that this is a small example of where teva was altered by the koach of Torah?

    #1159072

    apushatayid
    Participant

    In the warped mind of those who enjoy bullfighting, it is considered good sportsmanship to let the “winner” live.

    #1159073

    apushatayid,

    It’s a tradition,

    and tradition IS important

    #1159074

    Avi K
    Participant
    #1159075

    charliehall
    Participant

    Bullfighting is one of many brutal goyish traditions that Jews shouldn’t follow.

    #1159076

    charliehall
    Participant

    Apparently the Spanish tradition is that the MOTHER of the bull that kills a matador is put to death.

    #1159077

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Tradition is only important or good if its roots are important or good.

    #1159078

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Yes. Good sportsmanship is a tradition at sporting events.

    #1159079

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Last week we also learned about chanan bisha.

    #1159080

    Alizgit
    Participant

    Here is my very simple and feeble understanding of such zachen:

    Teva is constantly and always affected/changed by the koach Ha’Torah (e.g., klal yisroel learing torah and keeping the mitzvos or, rachmana litzlan, the opposite). Not always in the sense of le’maaleh min hateva outside otf nature, but, within the confines of Hashem’s creation of nature things that would or would not otherwise have occured are “decided” (kavayachol) by our actions or inactions.

    Everything we as klal yisroel do has a direct cause and effect on this world (and the upper worlds as well) and there is ZERO happenstance or coincidence in this world. The connection you have made is an intriguing and fascinating one, however, as a word of caution, while we may know that Hashem is the orchestrator of it all, we do not know the cause and effect of any of it.

    Therefore, while we do not know WHY Hashem caused this bullfighter to die right after thousands of yidden learned about such a case in Gemara,that does not preclude us from taking mussar and lessons from such an amazing sequence that Hashem performed in front of our eyes.

    #1159081

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Minhag k’din.

    #1159082

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    My initial post had nothing to do with the evils of bullfighting. My point was that it seemed kind of amazing to me that the first bull killing a matador in over a million fights occurred the day after the bull was assured by the mishna that it wouldn’t be killed for doing so.

    #1159083

    apushatayid
    Participant

    OK. Who did you whack upside the head?

    #1159084

    To keep in mind..

    So we all agree for this we ought to be imposing our beliefs on goyim??

    Good

    #1159085

    Health
    Participant

    Dafbiyun -“Is it possible that this is a small example of where teva was altered by the koach of Torah?”

    I think your limud is not correct! How about learning that Hashem deals with people Midah Keneged Midah?

    Stop with your Iyun and start learning Bekiyus.

    There is a thing in Spain that they do called a bullrun.

    A lot of people get killed or injured. They justify this because they have bullfights. This is akin to Avodah Zora!

    So now their Avodah Zora ie. The Matador gets killed!

    From the news, before this guy got killed:

    He was named as Ruben Frasquet Morant. Last year 12 people died at bull festivals across Spain.”

    #1159086

    Sam2
    Participant

    dafb: I disagree with you, only because a bull in a bullfight does not have the status of a Shor Ha’itztadin. It’s not trained to fight or kill. It’s just in close proximity to a person who will kill it during the performance. The bulls referred to in the Gemara were actually trained to kill people in coliseums and similar venues; as such, any killing they committed was an Ones. These bulls are different. They’re just there until people walk up to them and start attacking them with swords. It would be no different than any individual walking up to a bull on a farm and attacking it. If that bull killed in self-defense/retaliation, it would be Chayav Misah because there is no Heter of “self-defense” by animals. That’s what a bullfight is the same is. It’s not the same as a trained killing bull fighting a gladiator in a coliseum.

    #1159087

    apushatayid
    Participant

    How sporting is that? They should train the bull to kill the matador, the same way the matador is trained to kill the bull.

    #1159088

    Sam2,

    are you positive?

    #1159089

    Health
    Participant

    APY -“How sporting is that? They should train the bull to kill the matador, the same way the matador is trained to kill the bull.”

    They would never do that! The matador is their idol – Avodah Zora!

    #1159090

    Sam2
    Participant

    IITFT: Yep. When I learned Bava Kama years ago I wondered if bullfighting was a modern application of Shor Ha’itztadin, so I looked into how bullfighting works. It’s not fighting a bull so much as an artistic way of killing it. (At least, that’s the theory.)

    #1159091

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    “Stop with your iyun and start learning bekius”

    Considering that I have been giving a daf yomi shiur for the last 22 years I think I have satisfied your directive.

    Sam, thank you for clarifying the facts.

    #1159092

    cherrybim
    Participant

    The bull was tortured,starved and virtually blinded days before the fight; it’s amazing that it had any strength left at all. No rachmonis on the matador.

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