July 11, 2016 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #617962
Last Friday hundreds of thousands of Yidden learning the daf learned the halacha of a “shor h’atztablan”: an oxbull which is trained to fight in the arena which kills a person does not get killed.
In Sunday’s paper the following was reported: On Shabbos, in Spain, for the first time in over twenty seven years, and millions of bullfights, a bull actually killed the matador. Normally, at the end of a match the bull is killed. However by custom, when the bull “wins” they let the bull live.
Is it possible that this is a small example of where teva was altered by the koach of Torah?July 12, 2016 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1159072
In the warped mind of those who enjoy bullfighting, it is considered good sportsmanship to let the “winner” live.July 12, 2016 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1159073
It’s a tradition,
and tradition IS importantJuly 12, 2016 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1159074Avi KParticipantJuly 12, 2016 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1159075charliehallParticipant
Bullfighting is one of many brutal goyish traditions that Jews shouldn’t follow.July 12, 2016 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1159076charliehallParticipant
Apparently the Spanish tradition is that the MOTHER of the bull that kills a matador is put to death.July 12, 2016 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1159077👑RebYidd23Participant
Tradition is only important or good if its roots are important or good.July 12, 2016 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1159078
Yes. Good sportsmanship is a tradition at sporting events.July 12, 2016 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1159079popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Last week we also learned about chanan bisha.July 12, 2016 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1159080AlizgitParticipant
Here is my very simple and feeble understanding of such zachen:
Teva is constantly and always affected/changed by the koach Ha’Torah (e.g., klal yisroel learing torah and keeping the mitzvos or, rachmana litzlan, the opposite). Not always in the sense of le’maaleh min hateva outside otf nature, but, within the confines of Hashem’s creation of nature things that would or would not otherwise have occured are “decided” (kavayachol) by our actions or inactions.
Everything we as klal yisroel do has a direct cause and effect on this world (and the upper worlds as well) and there is ZERO happenstance or coincidence in this world. The connection you have made is an intriguing and fascinating one, however, as a word of caution, while we may know that Hashem is the orchestrator of it all, we do not know the cause and effect of any of it.
Therefore, while we do not know WHY Hashem caused this bullfighter to die right after thousands of yidden learned about such a case in Gemara,that does not preclude us from taking mussar and lessons from such an amazing sequence that Hashem performed in front of our eyes.July 12, 2016 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1159081cherrybimParticipant
Minhag k’din.July 12, 2016 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1159082
My initial post had nothing to do with the evils of bullfighting. My point was that it seemed kind of amazing to me that the first bull killing a matador in over a million fights occurred the day after the bull was assured by the mishna that it wouldn’t be killed for doing so.July 12, 2016 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1159083
OK. Who did you whack upside the head?July 13, 2016 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1159084
To keep in mind..
So we all agree for this we ought to be imposing our beliefs on goyim??
GoodJuly 13, 2016 5:19 am at 5:19 am #1159085HealthParticipant
Dafbiyun -“Is it possible that this is a small example of where teva was altered by the koach of Torah?”
I think your limud is not correct! How about learning that Hashem deals with people Midah Keneged Midah?
Stop with your Iyun and start learning Bekiyus.
There is a thing in Spain that they do called a bullrun.
A lot of people get killed or injured. They justify this because they have bullfights. This is akin to Avodah Zora!
So now their Avodah Zora ie. The Matador gets killed!
From the news, before this guy got killed:
He was named as Ruben Frasquet Morant. Last year 12 people died at bull festivals across Spain.”July 13, 2016 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1159086Sam2Participant
dafb: I disagree with you, only because a bull in a bullfight does not have the status of a Shor Ha’itztadin. It’s not trained to fight or kill. It’s just in close proximity to a person who will kill it during the performance. The bulls referred to in the Gemara were actually trained to kill people in coliseums and similar venues; as such, any killing they committed was an Ones. These bulls are different. They’re just there until people walk up to them and start attacking them with swords. It would be no different than any individual walking up to a bull on a farm and attacking it. If that bull killed in self-defense/retaliation, it would be Chayav Misah because there is no Heter of “self-defense” by animals. That’s what a bullfight is the same is. It’s not the same as a trained killing bull fighting a gladiator in a coliseum.July 13, 2016 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1159087
How sporting is that? They should train the bull to kill the matador, the same way the matador is trained to kill the bull.July 13, 2016 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1159088
are you positive?July 13, 2016 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1159089HealthParticipant
APY -“How sporting is that? They should train the bull to kill the matador, the same way the matador is trained to kill the bull.”
They would never do that! The matador is their idol – Avodah Zora!July 13, 2016 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1159090Sam2Participant
IITFT: Yep. When I learned Bava Kama years ago I wondered if bullfighting was a modern application of Shor Ha’itztadin, so I looked into how bullfighting works. It’s not fighting a bull so much as an artistic way of killing it. (At least, that’s the theory.)July 14, 2016 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1159091
“Stop with your iyun and start learning bekius”
Considering that I have been giving a daf yomi shiur for the last 22 years I think I have satisfied your directive.
Sam, thank you for clarifying the facts.July 14, 2016 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1159092cherrybimParticipant
The bull was tortured,starved and virtually blinded days before the fight; it’s amazing that it had any strength left at all. No rachmonis on the matador.
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