Coincidence or Not?

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  • #605536

    Health
    Participant

    Last year Irene happenned right after NYS legalized Toeiva marriage. This year we are having Sandy come right after the start of a discrimination claim against a farm for not allowing Toeiva marriage on their premises.

    What do you think?

    #902046

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Coincidence. I don’t believe in a G-d who would make this big storm to punish all of us for the fact that there is a lawsuit. We don’t even know who is going to win that lawsuit.

    #902047

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    A farm? Nah, Hashem would have sent a tornado for that.

    #902048

    kingdavid
    Participant

    There is no such thing as coincidence. The answer is it’s because of many things but that can be a factor too. Hashem takes cares of many issues at same time.

    #902049

    If you link them together it is not a coincidence. Because Hashem sent the hurricane, you are now asking if there is a coincidence. Now to say this is the reason is just silly.

    #902050

    plumba
    Member

    I dont understand “Toeiva marriage”. Do you mean people marrying shellfish eaters? Or maybe marrying people who cheat in business? Or do you mean the “marriage” of unscrupulous business profits and various “communal” organizations?

    #902051

    YW Moderator-72
    Participant

    …well the folks at the farm did the right thing – shouldn’t that have stopped Sandy in her tracks according to your premise that last year it was approved and a storm happened?

    #902052

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    lol @ wanderingchana ^_^

    #902053

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    If you go down this road, you’ll approach hurdles when bad people do bad things and escape natural disaster repercussions. There are plenty of daily toeva related incidence which illicit no visible reaction from Him on high. That being said, dulce et decorum est, it is good and proper to be mefasfesh bema’asov when awe inspiring events occur. Seek not to rationalise His actions as we are far too limited in both scope of understanding and even basic awareness of what goes on for us to be able to rationalise what he does. Instead, take things as personal messages of his infinite power and use that inspiration to make your own personal improvements

    #902054

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    *incidents not incidence

    #902055

    yehudayona
    Participant

    YeshSoc, if you’re going to correct yourself, I don’t feel bad pointing out that you should have written elicit, not illicit.

    #902056

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    Ha! Au contraire. The fact that I corrected myself shows that I’m insecure about leaving mistakes so the ones I didn’t notice shouldn’t be pointed out!

    😉 but seriously, thanks 🙂

    #902057

    Yeshivishsocrates1

    There is no need to write that way.

    #902058

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    Which way? What did I do?

    #902059

    Health
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba -“Coincidence. I don’t believe in a G-d who would make this big storm to punish all of us for the fact that there is a lawsuit. We don’t even know who is going to win that lawsuit.”

    It’s not the lawsuit in itself, but the lawsuit is the cherry on top. Not only do these people have to have an official Gov. marriage, but noone can say to them or the Gov. -not on my property!

    #902060

    Health
    Participant

    plumba -“I dont understand “Toeiva marriage”. Do you mean people marrying shellfish eaters? Or maybe marrying people who cheat in business? Or do you mean the “marriage” of unscrupulous business profits and various “communal” organizations?”

    Is this some sort of defense for these people? I don’t believe for a second that you don’t know marriage amongst the same gender is a Toeiva.

    Are you equating these Aveiros you posted above with marriage of the same gender?

    If you are – Shame on You!

    #902061

    Health
    Participant

    YW Moderator-72 -“well the folks at the farm did the right thing – shouldn’t that have stopped Sandy in her tracks according to your premise that last year it was approved and a storm happened?”

    It would have if the Gov. would have told these ladies where to get off. But, alas with my experience, the Gov. will probably side with the Toeiva ladies and help prosecute the farm with the fullest extent of the law.

    #902062

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    I don’t know why ‘toeva’ marriages are so bothersome to people or why you extrapolate from a very specific word used by the Torah concerning men that the female counterpart is also called ‘toeva.’ The act under discussion is described by the Torah as toeva and therefor it is so but can anyone explain why we’re bothered by them getting married? They’re doing whatever we call toeva anyway, all this does is give them a certificate for calling themselves a married couple. I’ve heard several arguments against ‘toeva’ marriage but I’m yet to be convinced. I’ve heard it’s about the sanctity of marriage – we don’t respect a civil union anyway, we have our own weddings and would happily leave it at that so as far as I’m concerned, let them ruin the sanctity of the civil dress up weddings. Someone help?

    #902063

    mrs. Katz
    Member

    Maybe irene was connected to the gerrers refusal to vote for R’ meir Porush in the last mayoral election in e”y, and this is for the lack of achdus displayed by netzach hatoira and the gerrers refusing to recognise the rotation agreement.

    #902064

    Yeshivishsocrates1

    You didn’t do anything wrong. My point is that it is a common error of young intelligent people to write or speak in “hi falutin” language rather than in simple, concise form.

    To quote The Elements of Style: “Avoid the elaborate, the pretentious, the coy, and the cute. Do not be tempted by the twenty-dollar word when there is a ten-center handy, ready, and able.”

    #902065

    Health
    Participant

    mrs. Katz -“Maybe irene was connected to the gerrers refusal to vote for R’ meir Porush in the last mayoral election in e”y, and this is for the lack of achdus displayed by netzach hatoira and the gerrers refusing to recognise the rotation agreement.”

    If it had anything to do with that – the hurricaine would happen in Israel, not here.

    #902066

    just my hapence
    Participant

    Health – Fine, so Irene was as a result of Charedi Brooklyners bashing MO and YU then…

    Nothing is coincidence but correlation does not equal causation. And I seriously doubt that you are capable of figuring out HKB’H’s reasons for how he runs the world.

    And, just to put a word in for plumba, if the Torah equates them (it uses the same word to describe all of them [though plumba is mistaken in claiming that the Torah calls eating ma’acholos asuros a to’eva]) then, whilst we certainly view certain things as being more distasteful than others, in the Torah viewpoint there is no distinction between how much of a to’eva mishkav zochor is as compared to cheating in business. In fact the Gemoro says that one of the first questions we will all be asked l’achar me’oh v’esrim is whether our masoh u’maton was b’tzeddek. Not whether or not we engaged in certain relationships. This does not mean that we are defending these peoples’ actions, believe me, I’m the last to do that, just that your arrogant claim to know what HKB’H told Moshe Rabeinu that no-one is capable of knowing needs to be properly put into perspective.

    #902067

    Health
    Participant

    Yeshivishsocrates1 -“I don’t know why ‘toeva’ marriages are so bothersome to people or why you extrapolate from a very specific word used by the Torah concerning men that the female counterpart is also called ‘toeva.'”

    Noone extrapolated anything. We don’t have to exclude females when we are talking about this in general by mentioning them separately. I can’t understand your defense on females -it’s also Ossur even if not as bad as males.

    “The act under discussion is described by the Torah as toeva and therefor it is so but can anyone explain why we’re bothered by them getting married? They’re doing whatever we call toeva anyway, all this does is give them a certificate for calling themselves a married couple. I’ve heard several arguments against ‘toeva’ marriage but I’m yet to be convinced. I’ve heard it’s about the sanctity of marriage – we don’t respect a civil union anyway, we have our own weddings and would happily leave it at that so as far as I’m concerned, let them ruin the sanctity of the civil dress up weddings. Someone help?”

    This has been discussed many times in the CR. Here is one time:

    From the topic of -“Our Dor and the Dor Hamabul”.

    “Health – Wrong… Second of all, I posted here many times, that Chazal say once they write Kesubos on this (marriage contracts) that this (automatically?) brings about destruction. I live in this world and I shouldn’t be concerned about its’ destruction?”

    #902068

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I don’t know anything about the lawsuit but I do notice these calamities often centering around the tri state area . . .

    Don’t throw anything at me, I was being sarcastic

    #902069

    Health
    Participant

    just my hapence -“Health – Fine, so Irene was as a result of Charedi Brooklyners bashing MO and YU then..”

    Noone said there can’t be many reasons. I never said my reason was the only one.

    “Nothing is coincidence but correlation does not equal causation. And I seriously doubt that you are capable of figuring out HKB’H’s reasons for how he runs the world.

    This does not mean that we are defending these peoples’ actions, believe me, I’m the last to do that, just that your arrogant claim to know what HKB’H told Moshe Rabeinu that no-one is capable of knowing needs to be properly put into perspective.”

    Because you misinterpreted my post – you wrote what you did. I never said I know 100% why this storm came. If the timeline of these storms are right after a bad occurrence here, we don’t have to put our heads in the sand and pretend that one thing could not possibly have to do with the other. The fact that Hashem brought the Mabul because of Kesubos for Miskav Zochor is enough for me to consider that this could possibly be the reason over here. It’s actually your arrogance that you seem to imply that this couldn’t possibly be the reason.

    “And, just to put a word in for plumba, if the Torah equates them (it uses the same word to describe all of them [though plumba is mistaken in claiming that the Torah calls eating ma’acholos asuros a to’eva]) then, whilst we certainly view certain things as being more distasteful than others, in the Torah viewpoint there is no distinction between how much of a to’eva mishkav zochor is as compared to cheating in business. In fact the Gemoro says that one of the first questions we will all be asked l’achar me’oh v’esrim is whether our masoh u’maton was b’tzeddek. Not whether or not we engaged in certain relationships.”

    This is the one of the most Krumme posts I have ever read. All Toeivas are equal? The Torah views Genaiva such as cheating in business as equal to Mishkav Zochor? The reason some Aveiros have worse punishments than others because they are worse Aveiros.

    FYI, Mishkav Zochor has a worse punishment than Stealing! It’s also from the 3 Aveiros Chamuros where the Din is Yahrog V’al Yavor!

    #902070

    just my hapence
    Participant

    Health – Oh deary, deary me… Look, you claim to because a Hurricane happened after an event this means that one may be a cause for the other. This is a) logically unsound and b) arrogant in the extreme. I do not know whether or not one thing causes the other. The first prosecution here in England for not performing a ceremony for what you call a to’eva couple was nearly two years ago. There has been a spectacular lack of hurricanes or any large scale natural disaster of any kind anywhere near the area concerned. It is presumptuous in the extreme to claim to have any idea of why HKB’H does the things he does when and where he does. I do not think I misinterpreted your post, but you definitely misinterpreted mine. Nowhere do I claim that one aveiro is more or less chomur than the other, simply that the adjective ‘to’eva’ is applied equally to both. ‘To’eva’ is not an indicator of seriousness of an aveiro, but a description of it, it is an aveiro which is (or so Artscroll says) ‘abominable’. Now the Torah calls many things a ‘to’eva’, for various reasons. Plumba was merely asking why this label has been reserved exclusively for those who are over just one of these many when the Torah applies it to others, he was not equating onshin or chumra, just adjectives. And if the HKB’H didn’t think that dishonesty in masoh u’maton was not a to’eva, He would not have used that word when describing it in His Torah. The quote from the Gemoro was simply to highlight that masoh u’maton is not a light matter, it is something HKB’H treats with the utmost seriousness and yet this same to’eva is willfully ignored by hundreds of ‘bnei torah’ because they can ‘mach shtick’. Well I’m sorry, but it’s still a to’eva, however much shtick is used.

    #902071

    just my hapence

    In fairness, living in England might be the punishment.

    #902072

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Hashem could have struck the lawmakers with lightning, but He didn’t. So let’s not try to figure out schar v’onesh.

    #902073

    kfb
    Participant

    This hurricane was 100% brought because of gay marriage. When was the last time such a storm happened in New York besides for snow. Wake up fellow Jews. We must abolish gay marriage!

    #902074

    I bet R’Yehuda Levin is writing his speech for the press conference right now.

    #902075

    zeena.kasta
    Member

    Just saying that the term ‘gay marraige’ is a paradox. by definition marraige is the union between a man in a women. The rate of supposably gay relationships have not chnaged in 10 years (still 4%), even though these relationship have become increasingly accepted in secular society. So Hashem would have done something about that a long time ago. Sandy is a punishemnt for other averos, such as sinas chinam.

    #902076

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Maybe this is a punishment for Bloomberg’s battle against metzitza b”peh?

    #902077

    just my hapence
    Participant

    It’s a punishment for the legislation against extra-large soda.

    #902078

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    jmh – you wrote “It is presumptuous in the extreme to claim to have any idea of why HKB’H does the things he does when and where he does.”

    Health was not CLAIMING, but merely asking if CR readers think that there is a POSSIBLE CONNECTION between the two. How many tzaddikim and baalei musser speak of this inyan, that when a natural disaster strikes we should not sit back blindly, but use our brains (like Health) and try to understand why Hashem is doing all this?!

    We have no Nevi’im in our dor to tell us what Hashem’s message is, but the least we CAN do is think, ask, and try not to ignore such catastrophic phenomenon.

    #902079

    I think mrs katz’s theory is not a contradiction to all teh all the other theories. As long as there is sholoim by frum yidden, hahsem protects everyone. once there is no sholoim, then perhaps the middas hadin is mekatreig?

    #902080

    just my hapence
    Participant

    BaalHabooze – It is making the link in the first place that is presumptuous. It is suggesting a reason for something we cannot know a reason for that is presumptuous. All we need to know is that it has happened and we need to work on ourselves as human beings and as frum Jews. What the ba’alei mussar say is precisely that, that we must work on ourselves, not find some outside cause over which we have no control to blame it on. And what we certainly don’t do is try to figure out da’as H’.

    #902081

    Guys & girls – a terrible storm just thundered through us, destroying life and limb in a horrible way. Let’s think about just that…

    Can we give this subject a rest?

    #902082

    Health
    Participant

    just my hapence -“Health – Oh deary, deary me… Look, you claim to because a Hurricane happened after an event this means that one may be a cause for the other. This is a) logically unsound and b) arrogant in the extreme.”

    Yes, this is where we disagree. I don’t understand why you deny this possibility? Second of all, Plumba was using sarcasm to change the subject of Toeiva marriage to other Toeivas, which you chimed in about. My response was that Toeiva marriages is much worse than other Toeivas. This is still true.

    “BaalHabooze – It is making the link in the first place that is presumptuous. It is suggesting a reason for something we cannot know a reason for that is presumptuous. All we need to know is that it has happened and we need to work on ourselves as human beings and as frum Jews. What the ba’alei mussar say is precisely that, that we must work on ourselves, not find some outside cause over which we have no control to blame it on. And what we certainly don’t do is try to figure out da’as H’.”

    This certainly is not true. We do have to look at all the possibilities of this tragedy which include Toeiva marriages. Why are you putting your head in the sand regarding this? Chazal don’t waste their words. If they are telling us the Mabul came because of Toeiva marriage contracts – this is for us to learn from in the future. I never said this is the only reason Hashem brought this, but to pretend this can’t be a reason is very “presumptuous” on your part!

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