March 4, 2009 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1010531gavra_at_workParticipant
Al Todin Es Chavercha Ad Sheyehi Bemekomo.
Next to a dorm yeshiva! 🙂March 4, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1010532
I mean to add, I know I mixed a lot of stuff into my very long post, but I am sick with the flu this week, and my head is not on too straight, so my self-editing is not working too well. I am ALL for bochurim (and girls, as well) having a wonderful, fun, meaningful Purim celebration. I just don’t think that a) it should necessitate the inclusion of liquor for underage kids ( dina d’malchusah dina), and b)the kids who are supposedly doing a mitzvah should do it with the kovod and kedusha that the mitzvah deserves. I apologize for my long-windedness before.March 4, 2009 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1010533kiruvwifeMember
hmmmm-I would love to see the community I live in have bochurim drive around in a limo and collect tzedakah. I don’t think anyone would know what to do with themselves. It would probably make it on the front page news. The exposure to the concept of people collecting tzedakah would also be a nice chinuch opportunity.March 4, 2009 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1010535
oomis, I’m sorry for the conflict between you and the yeshiva bochurim next door and for the lack of consideration they have shown you. But do you now see how they know not to collect at your house, even though they have never tried it?March 4, 2009 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1010536
Oomis, refuah shelaima!
Have you tried to talk to the rabbeim BEFORE Purim? Maybe they will realize what a chillul hashem it is for the neighborhood.
Squeak, its kind of hard to go to someone’s house and say “My friend just vomitted on your lawn, but can I have some money?”March 4, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1010537
Haha, that’s not what I meant. I was thinking of out-of-town yeshivos coming to her neighborhood and being told that this is not a house that appreciates having bochurim come. But what I can actually see the bochurim saying is “For every chunk of our friend’s vomit that we clean off your lawn, will you give $5 to our yeshiva”?
Some people really have a good time with this. One person gives out to each group based on how well they do in a game he makes them play called “Are you smarter than my 5th grade daughter Sheindel?”March 4, 2009 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1010538Mayan_DvashParticipant
squeak, i’ll add a twist to that game, the guy has to have drunk just a little bit, in order to be a contestant NOT that I condone underage drinking.March 4, 2009 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1010539moish01Member
“the guy has to have drunk“
or is that
😉March 4, 2009 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1010540
No, his daughter is quite smart and has embarrassed many a sober yeshiva bochur.March 4, 2009 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1010542
I know it feels like all I have to say is negative, but generally, on Purim night, on Simchas Torah night, and on Tikun Leil Shavuos the boys from the yeshivah next door to me are wild, out of control, and loud beyond belief even at 4 AM. I remember having given birth a week before Purim and sending my poor husband out several times to tell the boys to go indoors to their Yeshivah instead of making noise so loud that neither the baby nor I could get any sleep. (and yes, we told them about the baby). Do you think that if even ONE, much less 20-30 bochrum are outside unsupervised by their Rosh Yeshivah or any chaperones, throwing up on my law and disturbing the peace (and there are non-Jews on my block, as well – what a chillul Hashem!), that I care one whit about 300 boys INSIDE who may or may not be getting plastered?
You are way too chauvinistic IMO, to the point that you cannot admit that there is a fundamental wrongness with a system that encourages this type of behavior and calls it a mitzvah. The boys who collect ARE doing a mitzvah, but if their sole reason for collecting is the idea of riding around in a limo and getting served liqour in fancy homes, it kind of shters the intent and makes it a little suspect. Still they credit for the mitzvah of tzedaka, even if it is slightly shterred.
And I would not have to be upset with these bochurim, were their rebbeim with them watching them. But the adults all go home to bed after 11 PM, and these kids are totally unsupervised at their Purim party in the Yeshivah (I know, because I sent my husband in to look for a Rebbie to get the boys under control). I called the Rosh Yeshivah in the middle of the night one Purim, after fireworks were shot off on my lawn, coming dangerously close to my house. Sorry to say, I did wake him up. Well at least one of us was sleeping. And forget about the SMOKING and tossing of cigarette butts all over my yard. Had the lawn been really dry, we could have had a fire. There has to be a better and more meaningful way.I have put up with this for 22 years, and I would like to see a little self-control and a lot of supervision.
oomis-refua shilaima. i do not think the boys outside throwing up on your lawn, throwing theirs cigs on your lawn, keeping you up at night is right. i dont think the ‘sytem’ does either. The yeshivas that I have been to Purim night, simchas torah, and shavuos all have supervision. the one by you may not for some stupid reason. you have a right to be upset at them for those things but as you said its really only 3 times a yr so get over it.March 4, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1010543
but as you said its really only 3 times a yr so get over it.
I’m sure she will be happy to bring it all to your lawn. No one should EVER do that. Once in a lifetime or 3 times a year. Its private property and she could have them ARRESTED.March 4, 2009 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1010544
sjs- i said its completely wrong but i wouldnt go crazy with this anti yeshiva bochur attitude all year round because of 3 nights a year.March 4, 2009 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1010545Mayan_DvashParticipant
moish, it’s called Past-Perfect tense. I guess you got a Yeshiva education 😉March 4, 2009 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1010546moish01Member
yeshivas offer education?March 4, 2009 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1010547
Flatbush, I would argue differently. Don’t we say that you can tell a lot about a person when they are drunk? Well, how does vomiting on someone else’s property and throwing cigarette butts and keeping up the neighbors a good thing? So maybe it tells us that a percentage of our bochrim arent as good as we think?March 4, 2009 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1010548
it could be that it does. although i really cant base my opinion on a bochur when its purim. bochurim sometimes make mistakes and drink too much and cant conrol where they throw up. i dont think when they are plastered and they need to throw up they say, hey lets go to oomis’s lawn. although i still think its disgusting and wrong and NOT a good thing. and yes all bochurim are not perfect unforunately. did you think they were all perfect until oomis lawn?March 4, 2009 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1010549
although i really cant base my opinion on a bochur when its purim
You should be able to. You should be able to see how a good, frum boy celebrates. What makes these bochrim different than regular kids who go out to bars, get drunk and puke on peoples lawns? Nothing.
And yes, until Oomis’ lawn, I thought all yeshiva bochrim were perfect 😀March 4, 2009 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1010550
Re Flatbush27: if you can’t base it on Purim, then when are they supposed to get drunk so you can see how they behave when drunk?March 4, 2009 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1010551
I may be a minority opinion here (so what’s new), but while I am all for increasing our giving Tzadaka, especially on Purim, there are ample other ways to do it.
I know quite a few people who are “forced” to give up their simchas Purim with their families because they have to high tail out of town for Purim. They can no longer afford to dole out the Tzadaka that was given in past years to the collectors and they are too embarrassed to face them.
Also, there are families who are “hit” and are “forced” to open their doors and allow into their homes people they do not know, whether legit or not, and to give to Tzadakas not of their choosing and amounts they cannot afford.
I’m not saying these are not good causes but there are a lot of “aidle”, modest people who do not appreciate this intrusion into their lives. The “bochrim” are usually loud and boisterous and this practice is not appreciated by everyone.March 4, 2009 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1010552
sjs, tzipi: your right i should base it on that but there are some bochurim who go beserk and throw up everywhere on Purim and act like a yid shouldnt act when drunk, but they are very good and eidel the rest of the yr.March 5, 2009 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1010553
I understand that it is entirely possible that there are good boys acting badly on Purim and I would reserve judgment if I saw them on Purim. But according to your stand, they should be a minority of a minority and really, we should be seeing beauty instead of vomit etc. I guess that those good boys are in the yeshiva, not drinking surreptitiously out of a bag on the corner of the grounds or at a neighbor’s, etc.
Now, off to polish my rose-colored glasses, I’m going to see about changing my screen ID to Pollyanna…March 5, 2009 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1010554JosephParticipant
Those acting badly ARE a minority within a minority.March 5, 2009 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1010555anon for thisParticipant
I’ve not seen any evidence that oomis has an “anti Yeshiva bochur attitude”. I’ve seen lots of evidence that she has an attitude against underage Yeshiva bochurim getting drunk, especially when unsupervised. And I think it’s obvious why, given her experiences.
oomis, I hope you feel better soon.March 5, 2009 3:04 am at 3:04 am #1010556David S.Member
I personally think bochurim shouldn’t be too extravagant when collecting, for this could lead to a lack of anivus, for example going in a limousine, unless of course your costume is a chaffeur 😀March 5, 2009 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1010557
Flatbush, you really don’t get it, unfortunately. I have lived here 22 years and made two complaints in all that time, and one of those times I was a kimpaturin. I happen to be personally close with several of the bochurim because they are my son’s chaverim, even though he went to a different Yeshivah High School. And those boys, btw would NEVER do what some of these others have done. I think that liquor and bochurim do not mix, and especially when they are on a holy mission.March 5, 2009 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1010558JosephParticipant
flatbush27: Good points.March 5, 2009 11:06 am at 11:06 am #1010559
Flatbush, either you CAN judge people when they are drunk or you CANT. Saying “I’ll only judge the good ones drunk” doesnt really make any sense, now does it?
I think yeshivas should have a ZERO drinking policy for underage students. If you want to drink, go to your parents house and have them supervise.March 5, 2009 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1010560
Anyone see the pronouncement in the papers yesterday signed by over 50 Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim with regard to drinking on Purim and the ban of giving drinks to bochrim coming in groups to homes to collect?March 5, 2009 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1010561
Re cherrybim: ah, but did they really sign? You believe just any kol korei?
As an aside, while there is an inyan to give to anyone with outstretched hands, I’d be scared to part with my money to someone less than sober.March 5, 2009 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1010562March 5, 2009 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1010563
I was playing devil’s advocate. I certainly believe that all signed it with full knowledge.March 5, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1010564
oomis: liqour and bochurim mix fine on Purim. as Joseph said it really is a minority within a minority who dont act properly when drinking.March 5, 2009 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1010565
There is absolutely no inyun to drink liquor on Purim.March 5, 2009 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1010566yitzy99Member
“…when you give money to a collecter at your door or a fund raiser in shul or a telemarketer calling for an organisation they get at least 30 percent. when a guy comes from israel and uses a car service to get around the driver gets 30 percent so if you give him 100 33 goes to the driver he gets about 33 so only 33 is going to the organisation….”
If this were true, why would anyone give in this fashion? 2/3s of the money intended for a worthy cause is going to the driver, car, and other expenses. Therefore, if someone gave a donation of $1000.00, $666.66 would be going for liquor, driver, car, and collector; $333.33 would be going to the cause. Seems very wasteful, especially knowing how the money is really needed.March 5, 2009 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1010567
cherrybim: rashi holds the mitzva is only with wine but ohter shittas hold it can be done with other beverages besides wine. i will try to find them. if anyone knows them please list them. The editor said this in the drinking thread: “These same gedolim were witnessed getting slammed on hard booze, not like the Rashi you mentioned”
your right, there may not be an inyan to drink liqour but you are yotzei with liqour (obviously not rashis shita)March 5, 2009 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1010568
cherrybim: i saw the kol korei and nothing to do with you but it doesnt say anywhere minors shouldnt drink on Purim. it says balei batim shouldnt serve bochurim visiting, it says the shitas that the mitzva of drinking is only with wine. it also warns of the dangers of drunk driving and of alcohol poisoningMarch 5, 2009 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1010569
From the kol korei:
“The mitzva of “Chayav Adam l’v’sumet b’Purya…” is only with wine as it is stated in Chayei Adam (155:30) and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (142:6). Free use of whiskey and other alcoholic beverages is entirely inappropriate and contrary to da’as Chachomim.”March 5, 2009 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1010570
oomis: liqour and bochurim mix fine on Purim. as Joseph said it really is a minority within a minority who dont act properly when drinking.
It’s very clear we will never quite see eye to eye on this issue. Obviously my experience has been very different from yours, and from what my friends in other neighborhoods tell me, they agree with my position. INcidentally, even if it is a minority within a minority, as you contend, it is too many. If even one boy gets drunk enough to die from alcohol poisoning, or stupidly gets behind a wheel and has an accident, or causes other Jews or worse, NON-Jews to be disgusted with their actions, then it is one boy too many. You disagree – so be it. I wish you a very freilichen and safe Purim.March 6, 2009 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1010571yitzy99Member
Society as a whole presents mixed messages regarding alcohol.
It is often presented as part of a good time, a happy occasion, and a celebration.
Often the drunk is looked at like a big joke to be regarded with a laugh.
The dark side is the alcoholism, accidents, violence, and spousal abuse that can accompany drinking.
For me the right approach is to treat drinking seriously and to be responsible drinker.March 6, 2009 4:17 am at 4:17 am #1010572
oomis: one boy definitely is one too many but i dont see why the minority should ruin it for the majority by banning alcohol to minors. we never banned cars to teenagers because they get into more accidents than adults.March 6, 2009 5:19 am at 5:19 am #1010573
oomis: and have an awesome and freilchin Purim and i hope this yr the yeshiva next door will have supervision and hopefully your lawn will stay clean of vomit and cigarretess although doesnt the vomit act as fertilizer and make your grass greener? 🙂March 9, 2009 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1010575brooklyn23Participant
flatbush27- I heard from a very extremely choshev source that their is nothing wrong with collecting in a limo.if buchrim want to have fun while doing a mitzvah,who are we to criticize???March 9, 2009 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1010576
brooklyn23- i also heard from numerous choshuve sources that argues on your choshuve source. its a recession these days and people are giving less tzedaka so please explain why we should take this valuable tzedaka money and support limo companies when we can spend less money and rent a minivan from avis for 50 bucks a day which many yeshivos do, and more tzedaka money will go for tzedaka and not a 24 ft monster hummer with leather seats, chrome wheels and HDTV’s all over with LED lightsMarch 9, 2009 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1010578brooklyn23Participant
flatbush27-unless you are going collecting how can you criticize a bunch of buchrim who just want to go on a limo and have some fun.and a lot of people that go on a limo get sponsors for it or the organazation that their collecting for pays for the limoMarch 11, 2009 4:34 am at 4:34 am #1010579
Although the chag has ended, please note for the future: on Purim we tend to let our guard down and for good reason; we are happy and relaxed and are in the mode of “achva v’reius”. We allow strangers into our home (groups of bochrim; collectors; etc.) and are not as alert to what is going on as we would normally be.
There are many times when strangers have a license to roam about our homes, i.e., Purim; Sheva B’rochos; L’chaim; Vort; etc. I was at a Sheva B’rochos several years ago where the hostess left her diamond ring on the window ledge above the kitchen sink when she washed for bread and discovered it missing during the meal. There was a house full of people she not know and she let her guard down because of the simcha. Purim is no different.March 11, 2009 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1010580goody613Member
i went to yeshiva for a purim mesiba last night and there was a security guard whowas taking away drinks and fireworks from kidsMarch 11, 2009 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1010581
Ames, you just gave me the chills – how scary is that!!!!
Thank G-d there were no incidents this year (couple of fireworks and a little noise, but nothing major).
Flatbush – to address the issue of why should one person ruin it for the rest of us – well, unfortunately, that is OFTEN the case. it is caslled “collateral damage,” and it is so insidious because of the innocent get hurt along with the guilty. Just to take it away from alcohol for the moment – several members of my immediate family, myself included have either chronic or occasional allergies and need to take Claritin D ona regular basis. My hsuband and son need it twice a day every day. Because a “few” teenagers were using these decongestants in order to manufacture illicit drugs from this legal source, the government now has made it a very difficult and annoying process to obtain this OTC medication. If I buy the maximum limited amount allowed, I cannot buy it again in the same month. So my husband has to go buy it, my son has to buy it, my daughter, etc. etc. a very annoying process, especially since one member of the family alone can use up a thirty pill supply in fifteen days. Sothen what is he supposed to do? And that is because the minority ruined it for the rest of us.
The man who is now accused of losing billions of dollars in the Ponzi scheme, has ruined investments for the rest of us> Bad things happen all the time to the Klal because of one stupid individual. It is what it is. If one person has AIDS and an innocent pregnant woman gets a blood transfusion from his blood, and both she and her baby become HIV-positive and die, why should they have had to suffer because HE indulged in unsafe behaviors? It is to teach us that every single thing we do has an impact on someone else, even when we are not aware of that impact. Tell the mother whose kid was hit by a car driven by a drunk teenager, that it was only a minority.
If one boy gets drunk and causes harm to himself and others, it is one too many. Collateral damage.March 12, 2009 5:50 am at 5:50 am #1010582
oomis: should we tell the mother of a kid killed by a drunk driver no more driving in the world anymore for anyone? no we shouldnt even though that would solve the problem for drunk driving.regarding drinking we adress the issue by teaching teenagers the right way and the wrong way to do it. banning alcohol to teenagers on Purim will never do anything. they are going to drink regardless behind your back. the rabbonim have not banned it publicly. i saw this years kol korei and no where did it say anything about minors drinking. it said drinking too much and not serving them when they collect but never to ban it to them. they have a chiyuv in the mitzva and should be taught how to properly perform it, for example dont drink too much, dont drive, etc etc. many of these kids who who have overprotective parents and dont let them drink on Purim, will just go to yeshiva or a friends house or a rebbis seuda and drink. if parents want their kids to listen to them then they shouldnt ban it to them, just teach them how to do it without harming themselves or othersMarch 12, 2009 6:45 am at 6:45 am #1010583kapustaParticipant
oomis and flatbush: well said!
oomis hope youre feeling better!
🙂March 12, 2009 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1010584
Re Flatbush27: There’s more to teach than just the mechanics of drinking. When a bachur drinks, he should be around his rebbe and in a good olam. He should feel the high from Torah and letting loose a bit in a happy way.
But there’s this catch 22 afoot now: as younger kids start getting involved in this mitzvah (unlike last generation) yeshivas close the mesivtos for Purim for good reason; they can’t be responsible for the out of town kids. So the kids go home and don’t have this positive hashpa’a to enhance their drinking. They don’t know what it should be like and as they do it every year, they don’t gain from last year’s experience. I see with my kids B”H that there was something positive going on, despite a mother’s misgivings.
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