March 12, 2009 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1010585flatbush27Member
tzippi: i never said to only teach the mechanics of drinking.March 13, 2009 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1010586oomisParticipant
oomis: should we tell the mother of a kid killed by a drunk driver no more driving in the world anymore for anyone?
Of course not, Flatbush – – but we should have the right to take the driver’s license away from anyone driving drunk. And personally, I am for a zero tolerance policy. You do it once, you’re toast, if you get caught. Maybe with a mandatory minimum suspension time, like a couple of years, for being caught DWI and if more than once or involved in an accident, loss of privileges for a LONG time, if not forever. A car is a two-ton killing machine, and the privilege to drive is just that, a privilege, not an entitlement. If you want to drive, keep your drinking for non-driving occasions. If one has such poor judgment and self-control that he or she can’t do that, then he has no right to drive. And, if someone continues to drive, even after having had his license suspended for DWI or DUI, then he should be thrown in jail. I know I sound very harsh, but I take this very seriously. I have seen the aftermath of such an accident. No one has a right to cause such pain for a preventable action.March 13, 2009 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1010587flatbush27Member
agreed oomis. that is how i would also handle the issue except maybe a little less for a first time offender unless someone is hurt or killed c”v.February 15, 2010 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1010588nathan21Member
just going through all the purim threads and i disagree with flatbush27. bochurim should use limos. kids need incentives these days and if this gets them to collect then thats what we have to do. ah u could say alot of money is going to the limo and not the tzedaka but these kids would not have collected any tzedaka money if not 4 the limoFebruary 16, 2010 2:50 am at 2:50 am #1010589aries2756Participant
Limos usually hold more kids and the drivers are usually more responsible and patient. Whenever we went out to meet the limo driver they were really watching the kids. The didn’t let them drink (they were very concerned that no one throw up in their limo) and they were very patient with the kids, having fun with them and making sure no one was left behind. I have to say that I was always impressed with the drivers and always felt the kids were safer with the limos. They were also afraid to start up with the driver, because they respected the fact that it cost them a lot of money and the driver meant business. If he said don’t touch, they didn’t. If he said don’t drink or you are not getting into my car, they didn’t. If he said, we are leaving in 20 minutes, they left in 20 minutes.
So as a concerned individual I found the groups coming with the limo were better organized and more b’kovud. I think parents feel that their kids are safer and have some supervision since the parents can’t go along.March 11, 2014 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1010590achosidParticipant
BUMPMarch 12, 2014 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1010591nfgo3Member
Is a bunch of bochurim collecting tzdokkoh in a limo any more peculiar than a yeshiva holding an elaborate, black-tie dinner to raise money for the yeshiva? I personally do not like either idea, but they are effective fund-raising gimmicks.March 12, 2014 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1010592☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Nfgo3, is your issue the collecting, or the limo?March 12, 2014 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1010593frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Wow without having read all of this ancient thread, here are my thoughts:
There are three main parties (no pun intended) involved in the collecting on purim
1. The Institution
2. The Collectors (read bochurim)
3. The Donators
The institution does more or less whatever will make it the most money. The fact that its bochurim are not well-served by what occurs on purim seems to be believed morally compensated for by the fact that the institution serves them well the rest of the year in its own opinion. Does the means justify the end? As usual, when money is involved, yes.
The bochurim are not slave labor. Purim is supposed to be fun (I mean geshmak, fest, and toasted). You want them to spend their day collecting for you? Make it fun. Otherwise, someone else will. Or -gasp- they’ll spend the day doing good productive things. That would be the scariest option.
The donators are the trickiest to figure out. On the one hand it says kol haposhet yad nosnim lo. On the other hand, there is clearly a limit to that general rule. If someone keeps asking? If the person asking is representing a dati leumi cause? Where to draw the line is the question. As usual, things that are a problem on the systemic level, are often overlooked at the individual level in the orthodox community.
Additionally, there is much kavod involved if you have a full house of people, a line out the door, and MBD and Shwekey coming to entertain for a few minutes. It makes you feel rich and important. It’s a lot cheaper than a fancy yacht.
Bottom line: the money people give to tzedaka on Purim is significant. The transaction costs on Purim are significant as well. In a utopian world, if tzedaka be the only goal, all the money would be donated without the need for the shenanigans. However, we are not in utopia unitl either moshiach comes or (lehavdil) we have a few drinks. Then a few more. L’chaim!March 12, 2014 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1010594zahavasdadParticipant
The Limo is different. Its very open. Everyone sees the Limo and people want to see who is in the Limo. It broadcasts to the whole world
A black tie dinner is much more private. You are not flaunting it as much with a black tie dinner. You are not broadcasting to the worldMarch 12, 2014 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1010595apushatayidParticipant
The limos keep the drinking somewhat under control. you dont want to be the bachur who barfs all over the limo after hearing the limo drivers stern warning about not barfing all over the limo. You also dont want to be the parents who get the bill for cleaning the limo ($250 or more) if your son does barf all over the limo. Send them out in a friends car who knows what will happen. in a hired limo you know the driver didnt drink and there is the yiras hadriver factor that will hopefully keep the guys in check.April 3, 2014 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1010596nfgo3Member
To DaasYochid: the limo.April 4, 2014 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1010597ChortkovParticipant
When I was in Sixth Grade, I went with six friends collecting for our school. We were going to go in a Limo, which we managed to arrange for the same price as a taxi (The taxis charge per hour, and we found a Limo for the whole night) – it wouldn’t have cost us a penny more. However, we were advised against it by other groups who have taken limos in the past and found that they were received less warmly than in years that they took taxis.
BTW – There is a big difference between a collected from Israel paying airfare and hotel – if the collector told you he had a first class ticket and was staying in a five star hotel, of course you wouldn’t give him a penny. If a limousine is more expensive (which it is in most cases), then obviously using tzeddaka money is not ideal.
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