March 2, 2012 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #602332lovebeingjewishParticipant
Im very curious as to what you think about this. You are praying in shul and a gazillion people are coming up to you every second to collect money..
nebuch that they should collect money, my heart goes out to them and Hashem should send them a yeshuah..but theres a certain line of respect..to start talking to people while they are praying to Hashem and ruining their concentration..not just respectful for the person thats praying but respect for the SHul and the presence of the Shechinah, it disrupts the prayers..
i think its rude. i see many people getting frustrated by this in shul..someone was praying with deep concentration and some guy is standing in front of him shaking coins and talking to him for an hour..March 4, 2012 3:16 am at 3:16 am #859074Think firstMember
Honestly u can’t judge these people, some are so desperate they have no choice. But I do see ur point it can be disturbing.March 4, 2012 3:34 am at 3:34 am #859075oomisParticipant
Absolutely not. They should not be allowed inside the main shul unless they are davening. They SHOULD be allowed to ask people who are exiting Shul, for tzedaka.
I am equally upset by people who disturb the guests at a simcha, especially during a chuppah. I would rather the baalei simcha (myself included) would have arrangements with the caterer to give X amount of dollars out for tzedaka and charge me for it, but not allow people to come into the simcha and disturb the guests.March 4, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #859076
I agree. I would add that i don’t see that the people who get worked up about it are always the ones so focused on their davening…March 4, 2012 5:24 am at 5:24 am #859077
I have had times that I arrived at the Kossel or some Shul in Meah Shearim approximately 25 minutes before Sof Zeman Kerias Shema, where clearly if I don my Talis & Tefillin & commence my prayers right away, I had enough time to reach Kerias Shema in time, and yet when these schnorrers literally pounced on me, and I told them I must 1st reach Kerias Shema in time, and to come to me after I conclude my prayers, they simply don’t care, and think they are more important than haShem.
I have never been at a Shul in Meah Shearim nor at the Kossel on [Shushan] Purim, but out of interest:- Do these schnorrers walk around during Esther reading, expecting money as Esther is being read, causing congregants to miss even a single word? & thereby loose the entire Mitzwah of reading Esther.March 4, 2012 5:32 am at 5:32 am #859078
I actually work hard at concentrating during davening. The amount of interruption by collectors is unbelievable. There are many who are from Eretz Yisroel, who are raised with the notion that everyone who lives in America is rich. They are generally desperate, and many will press on if they feel you can give them more. I sympathize with their desperation, but I have a limited amount of money that I can spare (I do not splurge on luxuries, and I give more tzedokoh than I can afford anyway.)
Far more irritating is the pressure from countless yeshiva bochurim who are also sent with quotas, often at the expense of their own davening on time, and their own learning. The raffles are pushed and pressed. It is another concern when boys under bar mitzvah are sent to collect by panhandling (not a closed pushka). I consider it wrong and irresponsible. I usually make a note of it, and give the tzedokoh to the same organization or yeshiva bypassing the child collector. Can these children be taught to do their collecting without disturbing those davening? From Borchu until chazoras hashatz, one should not be mafsik to give. Collecting then is a michshol, and it is assur. Poskim discuss this.
I find it disgraceful that our young people are being trained in taking tzedokoh, not the giving of it. This mitzvah is so precious, but we are exploiting it by teaching our children greed.March 4, 2012 5:45 am at 5:45 am #859079stuckMember
What greed? The children are being taught to help others by collecting tzedakah for others, they aren’t collecting for themselves. The mitzvah is tremendous.
As far as during davening, when else can they reach out to so many people? They are collecting for desperate, less fortunate people. Besides the mitzvah being tremendous, lets not forget we would much rather be the one facing an outstretched hand, than being the one stretching out our hand.March 4, 2012 5:51 am at 5:51 am #859080
2 weeks ago I was on vacation in a Northern American city, and when a schnorrer came in, 1 of the members of the Shul mentioned to him, that the Rabbi had instructed the members only to give to schonorrers who have enough courtesey to don Talis & Tefillin & actually pray at that Shul Minyan. ………… Naturally the Schnorrer jirred at him, and moved onto the next person, asking for money.March 4, 2012 5:54 am at 5:54 am #859081
1 of the members of the Shul mentioned to him, that the Rabbi had instructed the members only to give to schonorrers who have enough courtesey to don Talis & Tefillin & actually pray at that Shul Minyan
That makes no sense at all. They are going to many minyonim, and can’t possibly daven at each one.
If your complaint is that they shouldn’t collect during davening, you should say that. But you (the rabbi) shouldn’t make up stupid reasons like that which are completely false.
I didn’t know sdom was in North America.March 4, 2012 6:00 am at 6:00 am #859082
I am not even a member of that shul, let alone the rabbi of that shul! ……….. The Rabbi has a right to make Takonos to enhance the quality of davening at his Shul, even though popa-bar-abba feels otherwise.March 4, 2012 6:21 am at 6:21 am #859083
The Rabbi has a right to make Takonos to enhance the quality of davening at his Shul, even though popa-bar-abba feels otherwise.
That was precisely my point. That if the rabbi thinks it disturbs davening, then he should say that is the reason.
The rabbi does not have the right to malign people by suggesting that they are not acting courteously by not davening with the minyan, when he well knows that they are collecting at all the minyonim in town that morning.
(As for your first sentence, you misread my post.)March 4, 2012 6:36 am at 6:36 am #859084mamashtakahMember
Luckily, our gabbai tells people when they come to collect that they have to wait until the end of davening, and then they get to say their spiel.March 4, 2012 11:18 am at 11:18 am #859085
Obviously its disturbing, maybe even wrong. But if youve ever been inside one of their houses, seen howe they live, and understand their situation, maybe youd give in a bit. I dont think anyone here can imagine and really feel the level of poverty these people deal with, unless youve spent a shabbos seuda there. When people in meah shearim have bochurim for seudos, they give each bochur a pulke of chicken, and the family eats the chicken from the soup. thats the main course. You try it. then try it for twenty years. Then see how you feel. Also, people in America prioritize their yiddishkeit according to their emotions. In other words, because these people bug you (admit it), youd rather pretend that your kavanah in davening is more important. When they come to your door on a weeknight when youre spacing out and have all the time for them, do you welcome them in or get irritated and open the door so your kids dont see you ignoring an onee. Imagine what you would do if your favorite (insert person you idolize here) walked into shacharis. Would you force your head down, because davening is so important. Or, would you figure out the most muttar way to somehow acknowledge the presence of said person. The idea is, do most people here mean what theyre saying, or does it work for them to agree. Now dont start yelling at me that im besmirching klal yisroel, I just mean that we all need to take a good hard look at our motives when we ignore the mishulach.March 4, 2012 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #859086gemara lochen-kupMember
I want everyone to relize the zchus you get when giving tzedakah while davening. Hashem sees that you are having rachmones on someone he will do the same for you.March 4, 2012 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #859087
PBA: You make the assumption that this is a town with numerous minyanim…
I don’t agree with it, but I could hear that someone would assert that it’s more courteous to join a minyan, and then go around collecting, as opposed to just passin’ through.March 4, 2012 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #859088
The collecting is bad, but what really gets me is when they just stand there, refusing to acknowledge that you actually may not be giving/have cash on you to give them.March 4, 2012 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #859089mutcheMember
Let’s look at how we treat them when we are NOT Davening to see if they are really “shterring” our davening or our Conscience.
? ????????? ?????!!March 4, 2012 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #859090avhabenParticipant
Would you rather be the guy who lost his shirt and is a begger or would you rather be the guy who has a dollar to give and gets begged from the guy who needs to buy a shirt.
Schnorrer is a derogatory word. A Jew with a heart will never utter that.March 4, 2012 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #859091
It is inaccurate to take my comment as minimizing tzedokoh. My point is that it can be collected in a proper way, and unfortunately an improper one. Just this morning, I watched someone pester mispallelim during Kriyas Shema, including the baal tefiloh. There is NO excuse for that. Maybe it is too extreme to ban collecting during davening, but it is surely not ridiculous.
Perhaps, one can be lenient about allowing collection to be done during davening because we fall short on our concentration and kavana anyway. The reason I don’t buy that is because there is plenty of time in which collecting is technically muttar; we don’t need to turn the left cheek on those times in which poskim say clearly it is assur.March 4, 2012 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #859092
If you care about the collectors, but don’t want your davening disturbed, you can put a little effort towards thinking of solutions. For example, I put down a few coins/bills, and as they come by they understand to take one. (Don’t know if it would work everywhere, but it works for me. Just an example.)March 4, 2012 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #859093
bumpMarch 4, 2012 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #859094writersoulParticipant
I really think that the little I know is right on the mark. I’ve been to places on Purim and you see these pitzi kids standing in the middle of the street between the cars on either side. It is so unsafe. My uncle always tells them he’ll give them twenty bucks if they get out from the middle of the street. I’ve seen kids knock in the windows of cars at red lights on VERY busy streets. It is absolutely unsafe and irresponsible of the schools, who are often the ones sending the kids out. (For the record, I’m not talking about mesivta age. I’m talking about kids who look like they’re in fifth or sixth grade.)March 4, 2012 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #859095
PBA: You make the assumption that this is a town with numerous minyanim…
I don’t agree with it, but I could hear that someone would assert that it’s more courteous to join a minyan, and then go around collecting, as opposed to just passin’ through.
Logician. I am unclear, is your second point assuming like your first point that there is only one minyan in town?
If there are multiple minyanim, I don’t see how anyone can say it is not courteous to collect without davening there, since that is the only way to go to all the shuls. If your problem is with collecting during davening at all- say that.March 4, 2012 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #859096WolfishMusingsParticipant
I want everyone to relize the zchus you get when giving tzedakah while davening.
Why would you say that I am having more rachmonos on a person if I give while davening vs. giving at any other time?
Or, more to the point, why do you feel that if I give at another time, it’s not a showing of mercy on my part and that HKBH will not look favorably upon it? Is my tzedaka worthless* if it’s not during davening?
* Well, my tzedaka is worthless no matter when it’s given, but I wasn’t using “my” to mean “me,” but rather, “anyone.”March 5, 2012 12:34 am at 12:34 am #859097
To toi & gemara lochen-kup:- Given that you seem to think that giving Tzedoko is such a tremendous Zechus, how about devising some method of making money non-Muktzoh, and being able to dispense it on R’H during Teki’as Shofar & uNesane Tokef? & on Y’K during Ne’iloh? ………. Or would you toi & gemara lochen-kup admit that certain situations are just off limits? Be it due to Kedushas Zeman, or kedushas Mokom of Shul Davening.
& do you toi & gemara lochen-kup want to make a Takono that when Purim is a Saturday nite as was these past 2 years and shall again be the next 2 years, that no Minyan can commence Maariv until say at least 1/2 an hour after nightfall so that people can come to Shul after Shabbos with wallets in their pocket, so that the Aniyim don’t loose their once a year opportunity to collect on Purim nite?March 5, 2012 1:36 am at 1:36 am #859098
“I want everyone to realize the zchus you get when giving tzedakah while davening. Hashem sees that you are having rachmones on someone he will do the same for you.”
Not true. Firstly, neither you nor any other human knows what Hashem judges of an individual action.
Secondly, my davening is not what it should be if I am mafsik for anything (cell phone, collectors, or anything else). I have not clue what HKB”H thinks of it. My obligation is to fulfill the mandate of tefilla, as explained in Shulchan Aruch. For many parts of davening, there is no heter to be mafsik. If you are unsure of exactly what is included in this issur, check out sifrei halacha, or ask your Rov. Being pestered during megilla reading, during Shema, etc. is unacceptable.
Having tzedokoh collected in shul is not a bad thing. It has gone on for centuries, and many tzaddikim spoke of the wonderful zechus inherent in this. However, it does not change the halachos about where one may not be mafsik. The reason we are discussing this is because the matter has gotten out of control in many shuls, and we are perplexed how to resolve this without banning tzedokoh collections altogether.March 5, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #859099
Yes, I was.
It may not be feasible, but I was saying that I could relate to the idea that joining for a tefilah, and then going around, or making an appeal, is a politer way to go about things.March 5, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #859100Josh31Participant
“The children are being taught to help others by collecting tzedakah for others”
More important in their education is teaching them the language of most Kosher Money jobs (English) and numerical computational skills at least thru 12th grade.
Somehow the evening of October 31 is dedicated (in much of the non Jewish world) to teaching kids to beg.
I will not judge those in desperate situations who beg in order to survive. But going forward with the future generation, education must focus on keeping them away from falling into such a situation.March 5, 2012 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #859101
147- How you managed to take my post so out of context is beyond me. I made two clear points.
1. That one of the reasons people get mad at these mishulachim is because they can’t fathom the degree of poverty the collectors live in and, if they would try to put themselves in the collectors shoes, maybe they wouldnt get so mad.
2. People need to take a look at their motives for scowling at the mishulach. Do they brush them off because theyre a nuisance or because its in middle of davening.
I hope i’ve cleared up whatever threw you off.March 6, 2012 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #859102
147- Funny point you raised about motzei shabbos megillah. The gemara in megillah says that one of the reasons we dont read the megillah on shabbos is because the aniyim so much look forward to the tzedaka they recieve and theyll miss out if you read it on shabbos. So maybe your right. And maybe your cynicism is unwarranted.March 6, 2012 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #859103
Im bumping this again because I have an agenda.March 6, 2012 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #859105cherrybimParticipant
Our shul gets an average of 10-12 collectors during shachris; some come in a group of four sharing a car and driver who knows all the hot spots.
For the most part, they are courteous and have a legitimate heart rendering story. Unfortunately, I can’t give them all what I would like to give. So a quick decision must be made as to who gets the quarter, who gets the $1, and who gets the $5 or $10 or even $20.
It’s interesting that in almost all cases; they are chasidik.
But don’t come to me with a credit card machine or five color brochures and print outs, that is a big turn off.
We have strict rules in our shul, no collecting from barchu through chazaras hashatz and during leining.
I have to admit though; I sometimes have weird thoughts while listening to the change jingling in their palms:
So after taking care of the morning crowd, I have to deal with the door knockers where the starting rate is $1 (if I answer the door); or more (if my wife or children answer the door).March 7, 2012 4:42 am at 4:42 am #859106
cherrybim – I share many of those thoughts. The mitzvah of giving, however, requires of us not only actions, but to feel compassionate as well, and so I think that to a certain extent, we have to draw the line at how much our ideas about life affect the way we relate and give to others.March 7, 2012 6:46 am at 6:46 am #859107Josh31Participant
Cherrybim, has your Rav given guidelines about the Tzedakah obligations of those $150,000 in debt?March 7, 2012 9:57 am at 9:57 am #859108fedup11210Member
I grew up in a shul that had a small weekday minyan (15-20 people). Collectors were directed to the gabbai tzdaka who gave one donation for the entire minyan from the monies that accumulated in the pushka.March 7, 2012 10:19 am at 10:19 am #859109uneeqMember
cherrybim: I agree. In my opinion that anyone who can work and instead dedicates their life to torah and collecting tzdoka is going against the words of our Rabbanan in many places. Collecting for a one-time freak thing is ok, but to be somech on begging for children weddings 10 years from now -is completely non-jewish hashkafa.
Many of the chassidim, also come by my kollel to collect money for this and that. If they are learning in kollel, then stay in kollel. If they really really need the money and have to go begging, then anyways they’re not learning so why beg when you can do something decent and honest? Chas Ve Sholom they should be mevatel their begging to go to work…March 7, 2012 11:37 am at 11:37 am #859110ImaofthreeParticipant
My husband carries a roll of quarters to shul with him (obviously not on shabbos) to give to the poor people who ask for Tzaddakah. Honestly, I would prefer them collecting at shul than coming to my door when my husband is not home.March 7, 2012 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #859111That Big Bear AgainMember
The problem is that there is more than sufficient reason to believe that these collectors are NOT the ones who live in poverty in Mea Shearim or even Mattersdorf, but rather those who have a few bank accounts hidden away, or even those who take what they collect and head off to Atlantic City.
Those who truly live in poverty are modest people who know not to disturb davening. They are after all too modest to approach organizations that can help them make a proper Shabbos every week, and we know that Y-m is full of such organizations.
Those who collect on behalf of those who do need it often collect in an organized manner.
The answer is some sort of authorization system – and also an end to the driver percentage scam that ensnares the honest collectors as well as encouraging the crooks.March 7, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #859112
knock knock. knock knock.
Wifey ,”Slicha, ba’ali lo babayit.” knock knock. knock knock.March 7, 2012 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #859113
Toi – lets hear the agendaMarch 7, 2012 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #859114
I want 147 to see this.March 12, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #859115
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