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    ” I absolutely have an agenda”

    Yes Charlie, that is very evident to everyone here who has read any of your comments. And your real agenda is also evident.


    Neville: You’d be surprised- evolution is evolution in the eyes of yeshivos and either they’ll teach it without referring to it by name (in your example about vaccines- I was once talking to someone about MRSA and referred to it as evolution and the other person was all, “that’s evolution? That’s kefira!” Nope…) or literally will not teach about it at all. That said, though, I agree with charliehall that you don’t need to be adamantly anti-evolution bichlal, or anti-science, in order to believe in the Torah.


    How are you majoring in Stern College if you’re in Eretz Yisroel?


    DY – you’re taking this in circles… what other negatives? This was the one, no?

    A yeshiva that lets Touro is clearly doing so b’dieved or they’d be sending the boys to a different college. Plus they do nothing to offer the boys in the way of role models or educated rabbeim who can help them navigate. Ner Yisroel is different though, and although I don’t know much about how it is there now, I can tell you that not too long ago they were definitely the role models of how to ensure yeshiva boys graduate college (anyone can send a yeshiva boy to college, but very often a college boy graduates). There was even one rebbi who had a list of books that certain classes would cover and for some of them the advice was skip the reading and skip those sessions. It lowers your grade but no one says you have to get an A in every class if you can get a C by being selective.

    This is for literature. As for science, no part of what is taught can possibly result in exchanging belief systems if one has access to an educated mentor. Charlie is right – anyone who thinks so has a poor understanding of both science and of our religion.

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    what other negatives? This was the one, no?

    Bittul Torah (you know Rav Moshe’s opinion), environment.

    Scientific facts don’t contradict the Torah, but certainly the way they present non facts as facts often does. They teach something other than creationism, no?

    My point is that there should be a way of, as you say, yeshiva boys graduating college, but it’s not every rosh yeshiva’s job to offer thatcto his talmidim. Those who go to college can go to the yeshivos with rebbeim who do offer that support.


    WS -“I was once talking to someone about MRSA and referred to it as evolution”

    I understand why you called it that, but it didn’t really evolve, like the word evolution. In other words, it’s not something from nothing!



    I read your comment about tailors and must weigh in.

    Machine operators who make garments in factories are not tailors. They perform certain specialized operations using specific machines. One sews on buttons, one makes button holes, one hems bottoms with a blind stitch machine while another sews long seams with an interlock/merrow machine.

    I grew up in the garment trade and ran a sewing floor summers while in College and law school.

    Tailors on the other hand, can make a complete garment. They can take your measurements, make a pattern, cut and drape and finish the garment. This is far more skill than a seamstress or machine operator. Tailors command premium wages.

    I do not wear off the rack clothing. My suits, dress shirts and slacks are custom made for me (it’s important that I look good for business purposes). My tailor charges accordingly and lives a lifestyle of the upper middle class.

    A tailor today is not like the schneider in the alte heim. It is a highly skilled profession learned by years of apprenticeship.


    “In other words, it’s not something from nothing!”

    Evolution is not “something from nothing”. Evolution is how species develop from other earlier life forms over time.

    Darwin’s main mechanism for evolution is natural selection.

    MRSA is a perfect example of natural selection in particluar, and evolution in general.

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    I don’t think anyone thinks evolutionary principles are inherently kefirah. The problem is when people teach that those principles were involved in forming things which the Torah tells us were created by Hashem without it.


    Ubiq -“Evolution is how species develop from other earlier life forms over time.”

    You’re correct as the biological definition, but my comment was on WS’s post. The Yeshiva world understands a different meaning of “evolution”. That’s why they don’t teach it!


    DY: If you agree that evolutionary principles are not kefirah, why couldn’t Hashem use these principles in the creation of the world?

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    I didn’t say He couldn’t, but He didn’t, as it says in the Torah.


    If you use a word incorrectly, you can’t expect others to apprehend what you mean.

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