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There are many opinions about whether women should attend college. I personally do think women should BUT for those who disagree, please do not comment on this thread, as the last thing I want is to encourage an unnecessary argument.
If you ARE pro college for women, I need some help with finding one. What college would you recommend for a woman coming right out of seminary, looking for a good, friendly environment that has lots of different subjects to offer?
I’m against college for women, but you should go to Touro. It’s a real degree and cheaper and more frum-friendly than anywhere else.
Torah: Studies consistently show that going to college will result in making more money. Are you against making enough money to afford yeshiva, give tzedakah, and cover all the other expenses of frum life? Especially if the husband is in kollel, a good income by a wife is definitely needed. Just stay away from apikorsus, get a rav, and keep learning. That should be enough to remain frum AND get a good parnassah.
I would recommend looking into Naaleh College. It’s a frum, online college, which gets rid of several of the risks posed to young women, Jewish and non-Jewish alike in certain other environments.
Rationalfrummie
Most single young post sem girls today can’t go to college without it taking a heavy toll on their ruchniyus. I’m sure Torah can fill you in. You can’t do something that’s assur or something that will likely put you in spiritual danger because you will make more money and be able to give tzedakah.
Who is the One who said that we should give tzedakah?
Who is the One who provides Parnassah?
In Judaism the ends never justify the means you can’t do an issur even if it will enable you to do many mitzvos. Many people don’t know this but the shulchon aruch pasken that one must spend all the money he has not to be oiver on an aveira. Think about that one.
tryingtobeagoodjew- hi! i am out of seminary and i am in a secular university. I must tell you that coming out of seminary i was extremly worried about the environment and the lack of yiddishkeit that wud be surrounding me. but i also knew i was strong in my hashkafa, my love for hashem and torah and my judasim.
My university happens to have alot of frum jews (as well as many not religious ones). There is a rabbi on campus and lots of frum jews!! (lots of bais yaaakov and more modern girls alike) and all of us frum jews live at home and commute (20 minute ride). I happen to like it alot. Yes, in an ideal world, i would love to be in an all frum enviornment, but FRIST HAND, i have to tell you that it has only strengthend my love for hashem and torah. I now (more than EVER! even in seminary when i thought i was the happiest) am so happy with who I am. I walk around as a modest, tznioous Jew, making a kiddush hashem for other jews around me who are not frum AND the contrast with goyim in the school make me realize how lucky we are to have a faith so strong and morals so deep.
I know alot of people would disagree with collage/univeristy, but I happen to think it is an opportunity to understand yourself alot better. Also to really feel “kol yisroel ariviem zeh lozeh” – all jews, no matter what hashkafa, we look out for each other and its really beautiful.
You should go to Harvard. They are notorious for grade inflation, and having their name on your resume and their degree on your wall is invaluable. Also, if your parents make less than $100,000 a year, it is basically free.
WIY: There are plenty of challenges in the outside world and workplace as well, but we don’t tell girls to sit in caves learning Torah instead of working. College is a nisayon, but Jews are tough- we don’t give up on nisyonos! We pass them with flying colors!
rationalfrummie
It is assur to put yourself into a nisayon. For some people they are oiver an issur every day going to work.
WIY: source? All of life is one big nisayon- we don’t try to hide from life!
Brandeis
If money is an issue, then Brooklyn and Queens College are probably good ideas- loads of frum Jews without Touro’s cost (if you live in New York- I have no idea what the NJ equivalents are). If you have (very) good SAT scores (I assume you’ve taken the SAT/ACT- if you haven’t, do so NOW), you can apply for scholarships at both CUNY and Touro.
Pursuing higher education has been the best decision I have ever made.
You jerks
i would recommend landers college for women- aka touro manhattan. It is friendly, and warm and is a lovely jewish environment. There are learning groups and shiurim during lunch or frequently scheduled through out the week. Girls are assigned advisors who get to know you well, and they guide you and are there to assist you. there is also beautiful dorms for girls who live out of town, or who want to dorm.
If you end up going toca secular college try to start at a community college where you can get q certificate such as phlebotomy so that you can have a job and make a decent amount of money while going to a Jewish college. That is what I am doing.
something which i grapple to understand is, how come its the more yeshivish girls who can’t go to college cuz its shtus yet they’re the ones who also marry a learning boy so they have to support…..so then what? you cant get a normal job if you have no degrees so you arew supporting him on….. (i know its called parents supporting them but thats ridiculous!)
ultimateskier: People go to Sarah Schenirer, TTI, Bulka… that’s what my cousins are doing. (At this rate, I’m going to be the first one in my extended family to go to a regular college for something besides nursing.) You have options like graphic design, nursing, special ed, therapies, nutrition, teaching, accounting, bookkeeping, and probably other stuff that I can’t remember off the top of my head. If that floats your boat then you’re set.
I also find that once you’re married it’s considered more acceptable to go to regular college, particularly for a master’s degree. One very yeshivish cousin did TTI for her BS and is now married and in a secular master’s degree program. (Her husband is in kollel.)
It’s basically either that or parents supporting, but there are a lot of gradations in between.
I have a female cousin who went to college. She is now a Reform rabbi, but she makes good money and is supporting her husband in kollel.
VM: That’s actually very logical in some ways.
Think about it:
-We already know a LOT about Judaism. We’d probably have to learn some Gemara and more Halacha, but we’d be starting from a higher place.
-Services are Sunday- we could be home for a regular family Shabbos and then just go to work Sunday.
-Pretty good money. (Probably less now that it’s dying a bit, but still.)
-For the rest of the week, a flexible schedule- we could even get other jobs.
My grandfather says that we should all do exactly that and become Reform rabbis to support husbands in kollel.
I got a mailing from JTS from Student Search Service- maybe I shouldn’t have thrown it out… (Conservative probably works the same way, no?)
Alternatively, I can become popa’s BFF and be a rabbah. My halacha teacher already suspects that I want to become one.
Just to clarify, I was joking above. I’m a frum woman who went to college and think it is generally a good idea if you have a realistic way to use the degree. It is a bad idea if you are very weak academically, have no idea what you want to do, and don’t have the money.
rationalfrummie
The Gemara in Avodah Zara daf 17 or 18 talks about not entering into a situation that is a nisayon. We are not supposed to look for nisyonos. Nisyonos will come our way regardless of what we do. Every time you walk down the street theres various nisyonos. Theres laways nisyonos no matter what you do and where you go. The point is one must do everything in his ability to live a life sheltered from nisyonos and still be normal. You don’t have to live in a cave, just generally try to live a life that avoids nisyonos. Meaning many things in life have an approach which is easier and more convenient but it is assur outright or will put you in a situation fraught with nisyonos where you will end up caving in and doing things you shouldnt which are assur therefore one may not pursue such a thing whatever it may be.
I’d say at the very least to take an SAT or ACT if you didn’t already and see what happens. If you really don’t want to then perhaps do as Vogue says and try a community college.
Did your high school or sem advise you at all (even if only to tell you to go to Bulka or burn in gehennom)? Take the time to make a list of your financial parameters, your high school GPA, the HS classes in which you got the best grades, the subjects you most enjoyed, and what careers you’ve envisioned for yourself over the years. That can help you figure out whether you should go to college at all, if so what type of college, if so for what kind of degree, and if so which college/type of program.
Kindly read my “op-ed” on college entitled “All Respectful Opinions Welcome”….I don’t know how to provide the link to that thread, sorry:)
eclipse: for better or for worse, currently, in both the frum and secular worlds, a BA is the modern equivalent of a high school diploma. There are certainly jobs you can get without a college degree (just like there have been jobs you could get without a high school diploma) but there are fewer and fewer as time goes on and the market becomes saturated with people who have higher qualifications.
True, this is a self-imposed problem to an extent (if people just stopped getting college degrees it would probably vanish) but that’s not the point. This argument has has been made in favor of trade and technical schools- at this rate, if we need to keep on being competitive, then you’ll soon need a master’s degree to become a cashier at Burger King.
Whatever you do – don’t forget that your life after 120 is what really counts. For most girls the most dangerous option is going to a college away from home and staying in campus housing. If a girl or boy must go to a college away from home, they should stay with an appropriate frum family.
Menachem Melamed, many colleges offer single-gender and/or “clean” housing options.
How about Vassar?
College is costly, takes effort and academic skills, and is the only option for any valuable job option.
Queens, Bklyn, Touro, Sara Schneirer (Mercy College program), ITT, Bulka, Kingsborough (in Manhattan Beach), etc.
Best to live at home and have a solid chevrah to study and take classes with.
You should try to stay in all-girls programs as long as possible or at least until you marry.
Stern is a great school
1. Why should the issue be different than for men. Since no one holds women have an obligation to spend all day learning, there’s no problem with women doing something that causes “bitul Torah”, and we have a long tradition of women working ourside the home with many gedolim having had wives who “worked” (and not just as teachers, e.g., as merchants). If college is allowed for a man to earn a parnassah, kal v’homer its allowed for a woman. Various career tracts for a woman is a separate issue.
2. Given the low status of secular women in most societies (e.g. being primarily seen as “sex objects” and the general denigration of motherhood), the outside world is far less attractive to women than for men. Looking at half-naked women is for more tempting to men, than being the one on display is for a woman. Also when a woman makes it clear she “isn’t available” (being modestly dressed and acting business-like, as opposed to social, when talking to males), that is generally respected and the person is not likely be harassed.
3. There are some all-female colleges in the United States, including at least two run by frum organizations. In addition, there is always the distance education option. And a “normal” co-ed school is less problematic for women than men.
This might be a silly question but I do wonder. A Jewish woman will most likely stop working when she has young children. Most people don’t want Polish babysitters taking their children off the bus and bringing them up 50% of their non-school waking time. So a girl gets her college degree by 22 and then is married soon after. By 25 she’ll likely have a kid or two. So she’s going to start using her degree when she’s close to or above 40 when probably much of what she learnt will have changed? And forget graduate degrees. Is it really even worth the cost in time and money if it will remain unused for so long? Before you know it, the couple will be retiring not long after starting to use the degree in the workforce!
And I’m talking about even if you can get past all the nisyonos of four or more years in a secular coed environment.
assurme: Sometimes, they just need the money even during the marriage. There is no guarantee that the wife will stop working when she has kids. Maybe, but no way to know if that’ll be possible. There are a lot of working moms.
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