January 24, 2012 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #601773Shmuel2750Member
We have a concept that the kohanim that guarded the Bais hamikdash were just there as a sign of respect and devotion. Not to actually protect it. If god wants his home to be destroyed it will happen. Therefore when b’nei yisroel sinned- they were punished. Same thing here. If it wasnt planned by god and supposed to happen, then it would not have. We have to Stop putting blame on others. We got what god planned for us to get. Either we sinned and were deserving or god has his own master plan on how to run his universe. Why are we justifying this as the work of the nazis. It was the hand of god!January 25, 2012 12:05 am at 12:05 am #845967writersoulParticipant
I have one major issue with what you’re saying—- that who says that they in particular were meant to be the vehicle for our punishment?
There were plenty of Germans who weren’t anti-Semites, and plenty of anti-Semites who weren’t (and aren’t) Germans. And while I don’t know how bechirah works as far as non-Jews go, if it’s like with Jews, then they could have chosen not to. It may have taken more effort, the environment may have added pressure, but nobody was manipulating their brains.
This is from the Jewish perspective of bechirah though. I don’t know how it works with non-Jews.January 25, 2012 12:10 am at 12:10 am #845968essy8Member
actually, we know: “vgam es hagoy asher ya’avducha, dan anochi” (i’m not near a chumash, but i think that’s correct). when Hashem tells avraham about galus mitzrayim, which was horrible torture and yes, it was from G-d and we needed it, He also says right there and then that the nation who does it WILL be punished.
yes, Hashem decides at times that we need to be punished, and leaves us “open” to our enemies. but who said the nazis/mitzriyim/yivanim/etc. are the ones who have to do it?
so, while situation is RIGHT as is anything that happens in our G-d run world, the perpetrators are EVIL and yes are punished.January 25, 2012 12:27 am at 12:27 am #845969essy8Member
also, don’t confuse good vs evil and right vs wrong with TRUE and FALSE which was state of the world before Adam’s sin.
the nazi’s were wrong (ie, immoral) and they were evil. YES people are qualified to say such things — we are told in the Torah to do “hatov vhayashar b’aynay Hashem”– we are to do good and right things, and to show the goyim also.
so although it was bad, wrong, evil, etc. it was also TRUE – it objectively needed to happen.
read R’Miller and what he writes about why the holocaust happened. he doesn’t mince words when he says why we deserve it.
and i think you meant ramchal, not maharshal.January 25, 2012 1:09 am at 1:09 am #845970HaLeiViParticipant
I don’t know what you mean by right or wrong but as far as good or bad, yes, it was BAD. The holocaust was VERY BAD. The Churban was VERY BAD. What does the fact that it had to happen have to do with it being bad?
I think it’s called getting carried away. When you are discussing the event and what it did to people that is not the time to talk about how it had to happen. It is important to realize that nothing happens without Hashem’s permission, but don’t blur the lines. Hashem Himself cried by the Churban, and no doubt, by the holocaust.
Whatever the Pshat is for the Onash (the Rishonim discuss this) of the perpetrators, we see in the Psukim that Hashem’s attitude concerning the ones carrying out what He promises, is as if they went ahead and did it on their own.
There are many people who readily tell people suffering that it is all Bashert, while usually forgetting that fact when it has to do with themselves. Actually, it is not always the right thing to tell someone. It can be taken like invalidating their feeling. The correct attitude is that what was wrong was wrong but don’t think, had he not done that I would have had…
It pays to learn more about this topic.January 25, 2012 2:35 am at 2:35 am #845971vadimParticipant
It is a matter of truth. We must recognize both sides of the truth, and we must act accordingly.
The Nazis and their accomplices exposed humanity to the most brutal and psychopathic facet of the human being. This truth would have been lost upon the world if the Jews had been punished through earthquakes, floods, fires, or plagues.
It has to be exposed.
The Holocaust was as much a mark on the perpetrators as it was a punishment upon the transgressors. Today, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Nazi criminals look back upon their ancesters with shame and disgust. And so many others recognize that no human being can retain any self worth or dignity when he sits passively while evil is done to another.
The Holocaust illuminated the Jew as the weak and feeble bearer of the enormous torch intended to light the world,
and his enemy as the one endowed with the raw power and violence intent on crushing the torch, extinguishing it into the ashes of its faithful carrier.
It’s simple. We try. They try.
We try to do what is right, and we stumble.
They try to trip us, crush us, destroy us, and they succeed.
Can you tell me that we hate them any more for tripping us,
than we reproach ourselves for being tripped?
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