Communism vs Liberalism

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  • #1521519

    Health
    Participant

    Is Communism nowadays disguised as Leftist Liberalism?
    As evidenced by B. Sanders, the NYT & the Daily News?!?

    #1521585

    The Short answer is yes ,albeit probably more Trotsky than Stalin ,if one leaves the economics aspect out

    #1521597

    The Tragedy is the word Liberalism used to hold
    rather positive connotations a century ago

    #1521602

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    No
    Communism is “when all capital, all production, all exchange have been brought together in the hands of the nation” (According to Engels)

    Neither Bernie Sanders, the NYT nor the Daily news advocates for that

    #1521635

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    How do you leave the economic aspect out of something that is as much economics as it is politics, if not more?

    #1521638

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Labels are for shirts, not for people.

    It’s really weird today the way that the traditional communist/socialist nations, Russia and China, are reviled in the media. But meanwhile, our largest corporations are making billions of dollars doing commerce with them. And the U.S. was becoming more socialist every day, at least under the previous federal administration.

    #1521732

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    We trade with other countries not because we agree with their politics but because they have stuff we want.

    #1521730

    Dovid,
    Many , From Lenin through Orwell to George Will
    have proven that pure Capitalism vs. Communism have in practice more similarities than what divides them

    #1521729

    “How do you leave the economic aspect out of something that is as much economics as it is politics, if not more?”
    Because it was far more than just economics.One could virtually state that economics was the early twentieth century Means to the worse Ends. They were out to repudiate all previous held norms and Values
    If this is too difficult, let us put it thus they a combo of pre-Marxist Jacobinism and[ as some eg Jordan Peterson terms them] “postmodern neo marxism”

    #1521736

    Some of the most ardent anti communists were the European Religious [part] socialists
    In a nutshell Economics was never ever enough of reason to pour so much blood opposing Communism

    #1521750

    One ostensible offical difference between communism and present Left was the Marxist scoffing at law,and the policy of Power justify every means. Though the difference is really on the surface rather than factual. They have figured out how to play the System better

    #1521833

    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -“Neither Bernie Sanders, the NYT nor the Daily news advocates for that”

    You left out why I was comparing the two.
    Those three are promoting Antisemitisim. It’s well known that Hilter YSM, promoted that Communism was created by Jews.
    Communism under Stalin was very Anti-semitic.
    From W. Churchill:
    “Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing”

    In the US, being a Facist is very looked down upon, as witnessed in Charlottsville.
    While the liberal antisemites are gaining more publicity everday!
    Under the guise of promoting peace in the Middle East – they have resorted to blatant Anti-Semitism!

    #1521855

    DovidBT
    Participant

    In the US, being a Facist is very looked down upon

    In the U.S., anything is very looked down upon, depending on one’s agenda du jour.

    #1521985

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubi, that sounds like fascism. Communism and socialism believe that the means of production should be in the hands of the workers. Marx, in fact, envisaged the state “withering away”. there are also variations and hybrids. For example, libertarian socialism calls for businesses to be workers’ cooperatives free of state interference. Classical liberalism (today’s libertarianism) is socially liberal while believing in laissez-faire economics. The common thread is individual rights as expressed in the non-aggression principle. What today is called liberalism is really akin to corporatism in that it views rights and responsibilities as accruing to groups rather than individuals.

    #1521958

    “offering us a stimulating analysis of May 1968 in France, Daniel Mahoney ..He recognizes that those actors who participated most influentially in “the events” were not of the same creed, but diversely Trotskyites, Maoists, aficionados of Che [Guevara], and anarchists..
    I was a careful observer of sit-ins and building takeovers at my own University of Pennsylvania.. A small number of self-aware activists used specific issues to draw in a much larger number of students who had few deep political commitments. In the crucible of all-night plenary sessions in occupied buildings, however, the insiders worked their alchemy upon the far, far larger number. Votes at 9 p.m. to place more students on university decision-making committees became, by 2 a.m., votes to dismantle American capitalism in which almost all of them had wanted to prosper only a few hours before.. As in France, a goodly number of those who were truly absorbed by the politics and cultural politics went into academic life or into journalism, where they would later wield an influence far beyond their actual numbers.

    Mahoney rightly argues, of course, the significant consequences of whatever changed in 1968 were less political in any immediate sense than they were cultural and attitudinal. Indeed, the spirit of May ’68 expressed its rejection of bourgeois life and values in a slogan ubiquitous at that time: “Métro, boulot, dodo.” This slogan (so contemptuous in its childlike rhyme and slang) means subway (that is, commuting to one’s job), work, sleep. That was the dreariness and human destitution of our condition under liberal capitalism. The phrase was derived from a line in a 1951 poem by Pierre Béarn, “Couleurs d’Usine.” Béarn, perhaps describing his father’s life in a factory, ended his poem this way (translation mine):
    Au déboulé garçon pointe ton numéro
    Pour gagner ainsi le salaire
    D’un morne jour utilitaire
    Métro, boulot, bistro, mégots, dodo, zéro
    (Rush in boy, punch your time card
    In order to earn the salary
    Of a dismal utilitarian day
    Metro, work, bistro, cigarette butts, sleep, zero.)

    #1522072

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Ubi, that sounds like fascism”

    Well it isnt.
    It is a direct quote from Friedricjh Engels the co-author of the communist manifesto. In other words the father of communism (or cofather with Marx). ( By nation he means people not the governement)

    Healt
    “You left out why I was comparing the two.”
    I have no idea what comparison you are making without you telling us there is no way to know. IF your comparison is the last 3 letters of the word then yes they are exactly the same.

    I dont understand the rest of your post.
    You seem to be saying that Communism is antisemitic. Though you provide views of hitler and churchill that communism is in fact Jewish (and its opponents antisemitic?)

    #1522131

    “Classical liberalism (today’s libertarianism) is socially liberal while believing in laissez-faire economics. ”
    False
    Adam Smith and the majority of later Classical Liberals were High minded and they weren’t libertarian nor socially liberal
    There were though some exceptions such as John Stuart Mill

    #1522153

    “‘Ubi, that sounds like fascism’
    Well it isnt.”

    ‘Tis more blurry than thus. Engels was certainly of the opinion that Nations were Bourgeoisie and therefore only an intermediate stage, towards their soon abolition and the coming brotherhood of all humanity

    #1522173

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubi, are you a commentator on Engels? Marx said that the state will wither away. Of course, it could be that something was lost in the translation from the original German.

    #1522229

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi
    “are you a commentator on Engels? ”
    nope but luckily my parents had the foresight to raise me speaking yiddish. One of the many plusses is I feel comfortable readigng German (though not speaking)
    The quote is from Engels’ Principles of communism or in German Grundsätze des Kommunismus

    “Endlich, wenn alles Kapital, alle Produktion und aller Austausch in den Händen der Nation”

    This is the final step after he outlines the steps that he envisions. In contrast in the EARLIER stage “alle Industrie, allen Transport, allen Austausch in den Händen des Staates zu konzentrieren.”

    “Marx said that the state will wither away.”
    Yes and the two of them coauthored the communist manifesto whci hwas after Engels’ Principles of communism

    #1522285

    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -“You seem to be saying that Communism is antisemitic. Though you provide views of hitler and churchill that communism is in fact Jewish ”

    That’s exactly what I’m saying! That those liberal jews – i.e. Sanders & those newspapers owned by Jews, are the Antisemitic Liberals. They are eqivalent to Stalin’s Communism, which was very antisemitic!

    #1522576

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Health

    “That’s exactly what I’m saying! That those liberal jews – i.e. Sanders & those newspapers owned by Jews, are the Antisemitic Liberals.

    so why communism? If the benchmark for your comparison between “Communism … [and] B. Sanders, the NYT & the Daily News” is their anti-semitism. wouldnt nazism be a better example?

    #1522705

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubi, I once read an article by someone who recalled that her German professor reprimanded her for her Yiddishisms. Assuming that the German word “nation” has the same as the English meaning (and English and German are also related) it does not mean “state” but is similar to the Hebrew word עם. This is contrary to fascism where control (although not nominal ownership) is in the hands of the state. Thus the Nazi party was correctly called National Socialist (and is still called that in Germany).

    Health, actually there is a common thread between various movements that have attracted Jews. All seek tikkun olam. One can throw in Ayn Rand (born Alissa Rosenbaum), Paul Samuelson, Ludwig von Mises and Milton Friedman. In fact, the argument between Trotsky and Stalin ym”s was that the former wanted to foment world revolution and the latter wanted to concentrate on Russia and its sphere of influence. A Jew can never get away from his Jewish destiny although he can be totally non-observant. Rav Soloveichik referred to this dichotomy as “two covenants” – the Berit ben haBeitarim and Berit Chorev.

    #1522721

    ubi,

    What Health presumably is saying is while Nazis and equivalents are/were open[with erratic leeway] & outright on what they espouse,the so called Left espouse and propound on brotherhood- or presently sisterhood, of humanity.However in practice they will be just as virulent and ruthless, and the Ends are little more than semantics

    #1522722

    To be fully accurate,
    One could often make the same claim across the spectrum [or for some the circle] including surely capitalism and even democracy

    #1522802

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “I once read an article by someone who recalled that her German professor reprimanded her for her Yiddishisms.”

    Mazel Tov. Reading is good for you. keep it up!

    “it does not mean “state” but is similar to the Hebrew word עם. ”
    Correct, or as I said earlier “By nation he means people not the governement”

    “This is contrary to fascism where control (although not nominal ownership) is in the hands of the state. ”
    Exactly! ie unlike what you said “Ubi, that sounds like fascism. ”

    Glad thats cleared. have a wonderful Shabos & Yom Tov

    IITFT
    Thanks

    #1522829

    Hard to imagine throwing Ayn Rand in the same context as tikkun olam

    #1522874

    Health
    Participant

    Ubi -“wouldnt nazism be a better example?”

    The mainstream American is Not taken in by Nazi propaganda.
    OTOH, Mainstream Americans give credence & respect to Left Wing Antisemitism!

    #1522889

    Avi K
    Participant

    Ubi, the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics defines fascism as socialism with a capitalist veneer. That is to say, nominal ownership along with profits is in private hands but the government makes the decisions.

    Time, one can say that she was off-track but she intended for tikkun olam. Similarly, the ACLU, with if also often off-track was founded by a Jew (Arthur Garfield Hays). Aryeh Neier , who is observant, led ion from 70-78 when he founded Helsinki Watch, later renamed Human Rights Watch.

    #1528959

    Classical Liberalism

    “The only liberty that is valuable is a liberty connected with order; that not only exists along with order and virtue, but which cannot exist at all without them. It inheres in good and steady government, as in its substance and vital principle.”

    #1529598

    Avi K
    Participant

    Time, the author of that quote, Edmund Burke, was not a classical liberal but a conservative who believed that societies must maintain their traditions and that change should be evolutionary (see his disciple Russell Kirk’s Ten Conservative Principles /em>. Classical liberals believe that government should be limited to preventing force and fraud (a.k.a. the “night watchman state”). See also the “non-aggression principle”. For further reading see Mill, On Liberty and Hayek The Constitution of Liberty.

    #1529620

    Avi,
    Burke wrote that in 1774 when he was a leading young Enlightenment writer in Britain
    He was in his writings and his parliamentary votes invariably on the Whig side of things.
    This was prior to his later becomig one of the leading articulators of conservatives
    [or for some, reactionary] After the start of the French Revolution

    As T Jefferson quipped greater “than the Revolution in France,is the revolution in Mr.Burke”

    #1529632

    Avi K
    Participant

    The 18th Century Whigs were not classical liberals at all. While they supported individual freedom it was only because they saw it as an English tradition (and thus viewed voting as a privilege rather than a right) rather than Natural Law. This was echoed in the original demand of the Americans for their rights as Englishman, implying that Frenchmen, for example, had no rights.

    #1529789

    This all fine Theory
    Who should you define as a Classical liberal in the world of Politik
    Asquith? Who his [most of ] own party stage a coup and threw out due to his inability to do the job?
    Gladstone?

    “My objection to Liberalism is this that it is the introduction into ..business of life of the highest kind namely, politics of philosophical ideas instead of political principles”

    But that was of identical origin as:
    ” difference between a misfortune and a calamity is this: If Gladstone fell into the Thames, it would be a misfortune. But if someone dragged him out .. that would be a calamity”

    #1529780

    Having said that, your statement is fair enough

    #1529779

    He went beyond the Typical 18th century Whig e.g. he supported Irish Rights [at least in the early state] too.
    Rather atypical for a protestant Irishman

    #1529981

    Avi K
    Participant

    J.S. Mill who wrote “the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community [but explicitly not what he considered to be a barbaric community], against his will, is to prevent harm to others” . Friedrich Hayek is another example. Another is Robert Nozick (Anarchy, State, and Utopia ).

    As for British political humor, when Lady Astor told Churchill that if he were her husband she would poison his tea he replied that if she were his wife he would drink it. When MP Bessie Braddock MP said “Winston, you are drunk, and what’s more you are disgustingly drunk.” he replied “Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly.” The Americans are also not slouches. Sam Houston said about an opponent “He has all the characteristics of a dog save loyalty”.

    #1530062

    Churchill,was he a Liberal? He claimed himself to be, at least in some of his political incarnations?
    He was was one of most ardent proponents of Free Trade,even after others retreated from it
    What about the Cliveden Set? They also called themselves Liberal ,pro fascist as they were.

    Once again, JS Mill was an outlier

    #1530216

    And what about Americans or Canadians?
    Who?
    Abraham Lincoln
    ?Wilfrid Laurier?

    #1530905

    Avi K
    Participant

    In what sense was Mill an outlier? His ideas informed 19th Century America and Britain. He is still considered one of the foremost modern political philosophers.

    Lady Astor denied that the Clivedon Set was pro-fascist (although she was very antisemitic) and in fact, their names were in the Black Book of those to be arrested after a Nazi invasion of Britain.

    Lincoln was not a liberal. If he was he would have let the South secede. He would have even let slavery continue if he thought that both it and the Union could be preserved. He was a conservative in the sense that he believed that law and order are the highest values.

    Wilfrid Laurier? Now there is an outlier.

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